what the heck? we already did that once, remember?
doesnt this put all the early game focus on bot lane again? exactly the opposite direction you went with with the introduction of rift herald? i dont understand the recent global changes. first the teleport nerf, now outer bot lane turrets weaker than mid and top and turret first blood.
its like you want games entirely decided by bot lane again.
and the planned minion changes are just nuts.
Quepha3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-21T14:55:16.728+0000)
what the heck? we already did that once, remember?
Didn't it actually work really well? I thought the only reason they changed it was that they hoped they could remove that element of asymmetry on the map. It turns out they really couldn't so we're going back to what works.
Critmaster Garen2 votesDidn't it actually work really well? I thought the only reason they changed it was that they hoped they could remove that element of asymmetry on the map. It turns out they really couldn't so we're going back to what works.
it didnt work well. the only ting it really does is lock the duo lane down to the bot lane and have all the early game attention focused around that area.
the first turret, and the location of drake will cause people to 4 and 5 man dive on bot lane early to get that global gold as soon as possible.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:32:48.475+0000)
it didnt work well. the only ting it really does is lock the duo lane down to the bot lane and have all the early game attention focused
I thought that was the goal, so that would mean it did work really well.
Also, they're making tower AI a little smarter so diving will be riskier.
Critmaster Garen1 votesI thought that was the goal, so that would mean it did work really well.
Also, they're making tower AI a little smarter so diving will be riskier.
but why is it the goal? what does this accomplish other than making every game the same?
a couple of month ago the goal was completely the opposite. the addition of rift herald added an early objective that took the 100% early game focus away from bot lane.
Quepha2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:39:00.680+0000)
but why is it the goal? what does this accomplish other than making every game the same?
a couple of month ago the goal was completely the opposite. the addition of rift herald added an early objective that took the 100% early game focus away from bot lane.
They hoped the Rift Herald would discourage laneswaps because it was a buff that is much more powerful on a solo laner than a duo laner.
Critmaster Garen4 votesThey hoped the Rift Herald would discourage laneswaps because it was a buff that is much more powerful on a solo laner than a duo laner.
the issue i have is, that riot is trying to script how every single game is played now with the same strategy.
the lane setup, the early game focus and then forcing rotations in a very specific pattern by making cannon minions spawn differently.
it feels like theyre trying to remove innovation and game by game strategy with a certain script that you should follow to take down turrets in a specific order and play champions in specific lanes.
i dont understand how this is desirable. it will make every game play out the same way. an early fight breaks out bot lane resulting in kills, global gold and possibly a drake for one side, then that team snowballs and rotates according to the cannons as its slightly easier to siege with them.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:45:20.331+0000)
i dont understand how this is desirable. it will make every game play out the same way.
Because this is already the case, it's just that this is aimed to change what game flow each game uses since it's been stagnant for several seasons, if my memory isn't failing me.
It's definitely more of a band-aid fix than anything, but you don't say no to something that'll stop the bleeding even if you'll need greater medical attention anyway.
Quepha3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:45:20.331+0000)
it feels like theyre trying to remove innovation and game by game strategy with a certain script
It feels that way, but it's actually the opposite.
Lane swaps remove all variety from the early game because there is absolutely no ambiguity about the matchup: The duo wins and the solo loses, so the solo backs off until their tower is gone to minimize losses.
We get that Every. Single. Game.
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:45:20.331+0000)
the issue i have is, that riot is trying to script how every single game is played now with the same strategy.
the lane setup, the early game focus and then forcing rotations in a very specific pattern by making cannon minions spawn differently.
it feels like theyre trying to remove innovation and game by game strategy with a certain script that you should follow to take down turrets in a specific order and play champions in specific lanes.
i dont understand how this is desirable. it will make every game play out the same way. an early fight breaks out bot lane resulting in kills, global gold and possibly a drake for one side, then that team snowballs and rotates according to the cannons as its slightly easier to siege with them.
This requires absolutely perfect coordination. And 5v5s aren't that common on ladder.
8BitDap1 votesWhat previous patch did they remove fortification in bot lane? Out of curiosity because I forgot which patch you're talking about that went so well. Because all recent patches have been pretty bad. (post preseason 6)
The Yetii Rider1 votesWhat previous patch did they remove fortification in bot lane? Out of curiosity because I forgot which patch you're talking about that went so well. Because all recent patches have been pretty bad. (post preseason 6)
When Fortification was first introduced it only existed on top and mid. They put it on bot as well a while back to standardize things.
cyberchade2 votesdo you want resident sleeper of the first 40 min of LCS i dont
Critmaster Garen1 votesdo you want resident sleeper of the first 40 min of LCS i dont
i dont give a fuck about the lcs. i dont watch these games. and personally i find it appaling that the game is changed in a way it makes it worse for the actual players just to make it more exciting to watch.
MLDzXnRRR1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-07-21T19:21:13.635+0000)
i dont give a fuck about the lcs. i dont watch these games. and personally i find it appaling that the game is changed in a way it makes it worse for the actual players just to make it more exciting to watch.
Well, the game is mostly balanced around LCS - many champions were gutted this season only because of their dominance in the pro play, while being average or even below the norm in the non-comp. LOL. We can probably see meta changes when every champion can lane vs ranged without getting destroyed (but this probably won't happen in the next 2 years - they have to rework all melee champions, because they don't wanna "ball of stats" champions to dominate the game).
The laneswap meta in the comp. LoL led to uninteractive games (toplaners double jungling while waiting for the enemy team to take their tower, also sitting under tower to just soak some XP is just an invite to get dived by their jungler and supp, while the ADC shoots you from safe range).
Critmaster Garen1 votesWell, the game is mostly balanced around LCS - many champions were gutted this season only because of their dominance in the pro play, while being average or even below the norm in the non-comp. LOL. We can probably see meta changes when every champion can lane vs ranged without getting destroyed (but this probably won't happen in the next 2 years - they have to rework all melee champions, because they don't wanna "ball of stats" champions to dominate the game).
The laneswap meta in the comp. LoL led to uninteractive games (toplaners double jungling while waiting for the enemy team to take their tower, also sitting under tower to just soak some XP is just an invite to get dived by their jungler and supp, while the ADC shoots you from safe range).
i can understand if champions are balanced to create a more even playing field in pro play for the players themselves.
but this isnt about creating balance. its purely a change to accommodate spectators.
MLDzXnRRR1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-22T14:28:36.399+0000)
i can understand if champions are balanced to create a more even playing field in pro play for the players themselves.
but this isnt about creating balance. its purely a change to accommodate spectators.
Great. One of the reason for the Lol's recent decline was that the game was becoming Chinese DOTA farm simulator. Let's hope that they will make even more changes for the spectators, so the game will become even more dynamic and action filled e-sport.
Ralanr1 votesI was wondering the same thing. The bot tower changes confuse me (and the cannon minion wave changes just make me think that gold income top just got smaller).
Critmaster Garen2 votesI was wondering the same thing. The bot tower changes confuse me (and the cannon minion wave changes just make me think that gold income top just got smaller).
this makes less cannon minions per wave. i wonder if they have even considered the effect on stacking champions like nasus, sion and veigar who were changed to get more stacks off cannons than regular minions.
what about strength of the ages for laners?
the minion change just seems entirely random, and the turret change just done for all the wrong reasons imo.
Ralanr1 votes...well this will hurt lane Sion.
Spoofghoul1 votesyea as compensation they should give him 100 base armor instead of 74
Sightless661 votesThere will not be fewer cannon minions per wave. Right now, cannon minions spwan for all lanes every third wave. The changes will make it so that every wave has a cannon minion spawn in one lane. That still means a cannon minion for every lane once every 3 waves.
DeathBurst2 votesHumm, I didn't check the precise numbers, but it's pretty much as many minions as before, just shifted a wave later/earlier, no?
As for the tower change, I'm not really sure what effect it will have in "common people" games, to be honest.
Mistress Shyvana1 votesHumm, I didn't check the precise numbers, but it's pretty much as many minions as before, just shifted a wave later/earlier, no?
As for the tower change, I'm not really sure what effect it will have in "common people" games, to be honest.
Bot will be focused more, more hell for ADC's that's all xD
DeathBurst2 votesWell, I'm not sure it will actually have this effect in Silver-Plat ELOs, that's my point. (And I'm pretty sure nothing will change in Bronze.)
lilpokfluf1 votesIf I had to guess why they are doing this it's because the lcs at least NA and sometimes EU, not sure other regions, tend to go for a lane swap almost every game to avoid bad match ups.
and they end up 4 manning top/bot and then swapping and they never interact with the enemy team until 20 mins in.
That shit is boring to watch but the pros have found it to be the safest method of getting everyone to mid game with least risk. If a change like this happens we would at least get standard lanes again.
Critmaster Garen3 votesIf I had to guess why they are doing this it's because the lcs at least NA and sometimes EU, not sure other regions, tend to go for a lane swap almost every game to avoid bad match ups.
and they end up 4 manning top/bot and then swapping and they never interact with the enemy team until 20 mins in.
That shit is boring to watch but the pros have found it to be the safest method of getting everyone to mid game with least risk. If a change like this happens we would at least get standard lanes again.
so brute forcing the adc/supp bot lane meta is a good thing now? why?
we already did this. there will still be 4 or 5 man dives. the only difference is that theyre all going to happen on bot lane now.
Erockandroll3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-07-21T15:56:25.135+0000)
so brute forcing the adc/supp bot lane meta is a good thing now? why?
we already did this. there will still be 4 or 5 man dives. the only difference is that theyre all going to happen on bot lane now.
They need the Asymmetry to encourage standard lanes. And because the lane swap screws with the top lane. The lane swap meta affects the top lane champion pool. (likely in a negative way) Historically, Dragon encouraged the standard lanes. But at the moment, neither Drag, nor herald, have enough early game power, to encourage the standard matchup, meaning that the lane swaps has no significant trade off for forcing a lane swap.
You could make the top lane turret the one without Fortification. But that wouldn't change anything, it would just encourage Australian lanes since top lane is the weakest.
Critmaster Garen2 votesThey need the Asymmetry to encourage standard lanes. And because the lane swap screws with the top lane. The lane swap meta affects the top lane champion pool. (likely in a negative way) Historically, Dragon encouraged the standard lanes. But at the moment, neither Drag, nor herald, have enough early game power, to encourage the standard matchup, meaning that the lane swaps has no significant trade off for forcing a lane swap.
You could make the top lane turret the one without Fortification. But that wouldn't change anything, it would just encourage Australian lanes since top lane is the weakest.
why do you want to encourage "standart lanes" in the first place?
instead of letting the game develop itself dynamically its just forcing specific lanes down everyones throat.
honestly, i wish they would let the game break up even further by not locking the duo lane down to adc/support.
DeathBurst4 votesBecause you don't want the game "developing itself" into a stale meta that is boring to watch and to play because teams just trade objectives and never actually interact and fight.
Critmaster Garen1 votesBecause you don't want the game "developing itself" into a stale meta that is boring to watch and to play because teams just trade objectives and never actually interact and fight.
the game is already in a stale meta for years because it developed itself into the 1 - 1 - 2 meta that since then only has been reinforced. the possibility of lane swaps and duo lanes not being dominated by adc/support but allowing other combinations will only add more variety.
DeathBurst1 votesThe keyword in your comment being "the possibility".
Lane swap becoming the new default and happening 99% of the time would offer just as little variety as before, with even less interactions.
And I'd love to have duo-lanes with something else than a Marksfolk and/or an unconventional Support*, but I don't see how Lane Swap enable that. It's still the same Marksfolk/Support, just going Top instead of Bot.
*(You'll always have a "support", as in, someone not collecting income, whatever the meta, because there is only 4 sources of income for 5 players.)
Quepha3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:26:36.034+0000)
why do you want to encourage "standart lanes" in the first place?
More interaction in the early game. More similar to how most people play the game. More variety in the situations that can occur. That sounds backwards, but with standard lanes then any lane can go in any direction and jungler influence can occur anywhere because the power in every lane is at a tipping point; A lane swap means the result of every lane is basically already known and every player on both teams knows more or less what the next move is going to be without any choice but to back off and watch it happen.
Erockandroll2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:26:36.034+0000)
why do you want to encourage "standart lanes" in the first place?
instead of letting the game develop itself dynamically its just forcing specific lanes down everyones throat.
honestly, i wish they would let the game break up even further by not locking the duo lane down to adc/support.
More like they want to discourage the lane swap. (which is also getting stale)
and if the "Get out of a bad matchup" card is played without consequence, it can make counterpicking a non factor.
Critmaster Garen1 votesMore like they want to discourage the lane swap. (which is also getting stale)
and if the "Get out of a bad matchup" card is played without consequence, it can make counterpicking a non factor.
lane swaps are a valid strategy. i dont see why they are discouraged. players shouldnt be forced to take specific champions into specific lanes, but be able to swap into better matchups.
if the enemy doesnt like it, he can follow the lane swap and rotate.
i feel like this is the point where theyre fucking with game balance in a way where theyre making it worse to play, so it becomes better to watch.
i dont give a rats ass about esports anymore. i havent watched worlds or the lcs for years. i want to actually play the game and dont care if its interesting to watch as long as its interesting to play. this season has made it worse and worse so far.
Quepha2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=000100000000000000020000,timestamp=2016-07-21T17:22:47.455+0000)
theyre making it worse to play, so it becomes better to watch.
Lane swaps almost never happen in normal games.
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Am8nFKul,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T16:26:36.034+0000)
why do you want to encourage "standart lanes" in the first place?
instead of letting the game develop itself dynamically its just forcing specific lanes down everyones throat.
honestly, i wish they would let the game break up even further by not locking the duo lane down to adc/support.
They want to encourage standard lanes because all season, the LCS has been zero action top and bot with lanes being completely empty. No one is watching because the early game is so boring.
If Riot wants people to actually care about Worlds, they need to force standard lanes so we can actually watch some trades happening.
RainbowIcee1 votesif i had to guess, its to make the game a bit more different and add more flavor to the laning phase.
Zarvanis1 votesRiot strait out said that they're doing this because lane-swapping happens in pretty much every single LCS game. They're trying to make it more of a tactical decision than something everyone does because it's objectively the best thing to do.
That's what they've said, at least.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesAs if the game hasn't been centered enough around marksmen already.
R FLASH XD1 votesNow it's gonna be even worse when bot lane feeds, awesome....
Sohleks1 votesI really don't think it's gonna be noticeable 50g and 80 exp delayed an extra minute 4 minutes into the game. Or that bot tower loses a defense mechanic the first 5 minutes of a game because really, your bot has to fk up real hard for their tower to be under siege under 5 minutes.
They COULD change the cannon wave pattern to Bot > Top > Mid though, not Bot > Mid > Top. Reason being mid laners get their waves first already and have faster waveclear and more roam/carry potential already. This cuts back on their intention for top lane by 30 seconds though. But that's probably enough. Maybe the tower thing is enough though too. Hmm.
CaptnJakSparrow2 votesI really don't think it's gonna be noticeable 50g and 80 exp delayed an extra minute 4 minutes into the game. Or that bot tower loses a defense mechanic the first 5 minutes of a game because really, your bot has to fk up real hard for their tower to be under siege under 5 minutes.
They COULD change the cannon wave pattern to Bot > Top > Mid though, not Bot > Mid > Top. Reason being mid laners get their waves first already and have faster waveclear and more roam/carry potential already. This cuts back on their intention for top lane by 30 seconds though. But that's probably enough. Maybe the tower thing is enough though too. Hmm.
All it actually takes is one level 3 turret dive and gg. Happens to me all the time. Hecarim in particular is disgustingly good at pulling it off.
Jago Sauce1 voteswhat can you do against 5 or 4 man ganks though, for example thresh and lucian are dominating botlane, they havent had a gank. On comes 10 minutes and wham enemy midlane and toplaner is there, both thresh and lucian die and turret is taken. This then leads to losing the game but what can you do.
Critmaster Garen1 voteswhat can you do against 5 or 4 man ganks though, for example thresh and lucian are dominating botlane, they havent had a gank. On comes 10 minutes and wham enemy midlane and toplaner is there, both thresh and lucian die and turret is taken. This then leads to losing the game but what can you do.
its weird to see this old post. i guess all thats left to say is
i told you so.