Why are more tanks not like Sion?

Big Lincoln··68 votes·4,575 views

Sion is the embodiment of everything Riot fetishizes in a champion

  • telegraphed in a way that actually lets you avoid his attacks, so the punishment feels fair
  • very high degree of player control; can sacrifice higher reward for reliability
  • MUH COUNTERPLAYYYYYYYYYYY
  • isn't one-dimensional and thus has a variety of builds and playstyles
  • Feels pretty threatening for most of the game, even by himself

Why was this sentiment not echoed in the tank update or in the myriad of reworks that came around that point in time?

Galio

  • Very reliable damage output, most of it's front-loaded
  • Meant to be a niche counter-pick champion but his kit is valuable regardless of enemy comp (Amumu has similar problem but for his own team)
  • Feels disproportionately punishing to the telegraphs he gives you, particularly on his CC chaining and his ult; can't cancel his taunt with crowd control

Probably the easiest to address because he's mostly just overtuned, but I wouldn't mind bigger changes that feel more anti-mage

Sejuani

  • Telegraphed W tells you that she's going to hit more than she gives you the chance to dodge
  • Very reliable crowd control, and on every single ability; damage has to be undertuned even for a tank to compensate
  • Whether or not her niche power (melee stacking her stun) works for her is completely out of her control; doesn't feel fair for anybody involved
  • Has no other purpose beyond her powerful CC
  • Her main damage tool not being magic damage like everything else kills alternate builds
  • Feels unbearable early-mid but after laning phase almost nobody should be worried about a solo Sejuani; still feels obnoxious when paired with her team

No idea how to salvage this; any changes that I would actually want would completely change the rework niche

Maokai

  • Still has too-reliable normal abilities, have to be left undertuned and unsatisfying
  • Too much focus is on his E, but there's not much counterplay to them because they can't be disabled or cleared, only outran.
  • Basically turned into a mage support and then got nerfed for it, hasn't been seen since
  • Can feel extremely overbearing early on due to his bush control when wards/sweepers are at a minimum, but a non-issue later on because boots tier 2 + an MS item makes saplings worthless against attentive players
  • Ult is only good on ARAM; for how hard it is to get the most reward out of, it's very lacking in satisfaction

Maokai is salvageable but needs focus put into his not-E abilities. R should be made faster and more visible (like through fog of war), with maybe an ARAM-specific nerf as compensation.

Zac

  • Hard CC on 3 out of 4 spells, yet still retains higher than average damage for a tank
  • Same as Galio, punishes you too hard compared to the telegraphs he gives; landing E all but guarantees his ult
  • Doesn't feel particularly high in counterplay even though that was a goal of the rework (his Q needed to change but spammable, instant AoE % damage is completely fine?)

probably just needs nerfs

Rammus

no idea how he actually is, to be frank. rammus players keep saying he's been neutered but I've seen him completely wreck shit more than a few times

More tanks should be like Sion.

130 Comments

PePsiLemoNN23 votes

Cause you know , there is a chance we want different champions in the game

Chembaron Yamada22 votes

Does that mean I should delete my thread asking to rework every champ to Jinx in different outfits?

Ralanr22 votes

Nah. Link that shit.

Jeddy0173 votes

You got my vote for this idea.

reaperteaser2 votes

im sticking with ralanr on this one, we need a link

Spoofghoul2 votes

how about a sona thread with no outfits

FatedSaviour13 votes

this is why i love being on the NA boards, people actually not just know, but love sion

Ralanr12 votes

Pretty sure I brought this idea up and I was told that it'd make Sion less unique because of it.

Big Lincoln15 votes

telegraphed attacks shouldn't be a 'unique' feature, lol. The new-age juggernauts are highly telegraphed and feel completely different from each other.

Sion is unique because of what he provides, not how he provides it. Riot should keep this in mind when trying to carve out unique strengths.

Ralanr15 votes

Personally I hope that when Malphite gets a full VGU, he's more telegraphed and slow ish. Really push the whole "moving mountain" thing.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Malphite rework will have him move at 100 movespeed but if he touches you he damages you by 50% of his max health per second AND you can't attack anything that isn't him if he gets within a certain range of you.

also his ult gains global range with that rework...

and he's also as big as a lane.

Ralanr2 votes

Pfft. Lame.

Malphite is a big as the map half of his basic abilities work on each half of the map.

ME UNGA ME SMASH8 votes

Having played Sion to m7 and beyond, I can say that he's the most balanced tank in the fact that he is extremely telegraphed. More tanks with this in mind would make tanks so much more reliable imo, trading some instant cc for more damage, telegraphs for people to play around, etc.

FatedSaviour1 votes

im a mastery 7 sion too (270k-ish points) and hes up there, i might not say the MOST, because there isnt a perfect point of balance, because once someone is balanced, the next goal is to make it unique, but yay for sion players

kasfas2 votes

I'll be honest, I've played sion a bunch too but it's mostly been with the max and spam e play style due to its reliability and early utility. People will also often build armour against you first despite the amount of mixed damage you do.

I've never found q max to be rewarding enough for how difficult the ability is to land, especially since you need to land an e beforehand in order to get a decent hit off.

I'd be ok if they decided to change sion's e to have a non scaling cooldown and a flat amount of slow to encourage more q max. That said he would need a pretty big buff to his q in order to justify a massive nerf like this. Something like the damage and slow on q would need to be changed. The slow amount and duration would need to scale with charge time, and the damage might need to start significantly higher at about half of a max charge and work it's way back up. (Remember Sion's q does 33% damage to minions so a max charge r1 q right now deals the same damage as a r1 e base damage.)

But for the most part, the q max is very defining to sion, and has significant windows of power. The only issue is how royally fucked he gets by champions with dashes, especially those whose dash puts them directly in top of or slightly behind sion where his q doesn't work. I think there should also be a small area of leeway around sion where units are knocked up anyway to prevent situations like these.

I've been trying q max more lately and finding it's just as good as e max, although quite less reliable, and feel it should be somewhat more rewarding but in its current stance is fair and enjoyable.

Sion main, M 7 500+ k mastery points.

Ralanr1 votes

Agreed with the "top close to hit" problem with Sion's Q. It's incredibly frustrating when my opponent just enters my same space when charging to dodge my Q all together.

kasfas2 votes

Hmm, you make the earth crack when you slam your axe, better stand directly behind you and not get affected by this. item 3070 Sion item 3070

Catastrop1 votes

Sion's body is so built, he can withstand and stop earth shattering shock waves.

kasfas1 votes

You would think then, when he goes into a death enduced rampage he would kill people in 2 or 3 punches instead of a minimum of 10 now wouldnt you?

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly Sion's passive could do true damage and it'd still be weak.

Big Lincoln1 votes

lethality sion wrecks shit post-death tho

kasfas1 votes

But he also can't take a single punch.

Spoofghoul1 votes

yep as a m7 sion otp i can verify that e max is the way to go

because q is more unreliable and scales with ad anyway so it gets stronger wheter you put points in it or not

E also has a lot more range for poking

and Q damage vs minions is only 33% so it's pretty bad for waveclear you will be faster if you just look at the minions funny

FatedSaviour1 votes

as a m7 sion sup i can verify that Q is the way to go

Q is more mana effective as well as a harder CC to synergise with your laning partner, E cost more mana and does little damage (its base shot is useful for shredding armour tho ill give it that), the W also helps bait them out into teamfights and with the Q fights can be turned around, and if you recast just as the stun is ready you can get some mayhem done, its all about wether you can land the Q or not, if u can, max Q, if not, max E

Spoofghoul1 votes

maybe as support that is true

though get some mpen and you can do 310 damage with E shots that outrange xerath

meanwhile Q has a 1.95 total ad ratio so everytime you gain a level it's damage goes up anyways even moreso if you actually buy AD but you probably don't as a sup

The cc does not get any better beyond rank 1 though so the game change or synergy part doesn't scale up either

E max has another perk beyond easier to land at longer range, it's magic damage and damage on another ability

in the end whether you max Q or E doesn't matter much damage wise (enemies get armor/level) you get roughly 550 damage out of Q half of it scales with your level But if you max E you still have some damage left if you miss Q

So you aren't betting on 1 horse damage wise plus it's mixed damage with greater range too Considering half Q's damage scales with level rather then rank you actually gain more damage from maxing E in the first couple levels. Qmax has an additional disadvantage because of the damage scaling with time channeled and E doesn't

Though playing support is a different thing then laning so if maxing Q works for you then you should stick to it

E max has the most benefits besides mana consumption but that has never been an issue for me considering i land 90% of them so my enemy is forced to back or dead before i run oom anyway

FatedSaviour1 votes

i must be versing idiots because for me this spell lands more than not, i always hated the max E strat as i felt like it wasnt worthwhile, i rather max Q first, W second and E last

Ralanr1 votes

I usually max Q or E depending on which is more reliable in my lane (unless it's jungle. Then it's always Q) first and then W second.

People who max W last on Sion confuse me.

kasfas1 votes

W last was good when the shield was shit and not worth the mana until lategame when you had the pool to support its stupid costs.

Now his shield is better than just a minion aggro nullifier and can be used in actual trades, therefore a max second is better.

People still max q last most of the time because it's significantly too hard to land for how much it does, at least in laning phase, and also does reduced damage to minions.

Notice that a fully charged rank 1 sion q does the same damage as the base damage (unamplified by pass through) of rank 1 sion e to minions.

kasfas1 votes

Oh yea, q is rediculouslt hard to land when you can see sion. Champions can just dash onto him, to the side, interrupt him with cc, walk through him before he can get damage off, and a whole manner of other things. The only thing that opponents can do against e max is predict it, or not walk into it, and with significantly fewer options for counter play it becomes the much better option.

Especially when you realize that sion's q damage goes up no matter if you put points into it or not due to its total ad scaling.

FatedSaviour1 votes

you can recast sion Q if they try to dash to you, if they move to the side you recast, just recast if they are about to go out of range, its also much more damage:manacost ratio effective, also the base damage increased with sion Q which is helpful when you build tank, as well as cooldown is also nice

Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votes

More tanks should be like Sion.

Totaly agree.

rammus players keep saying he's been neutered but I've seen him completely wreck shit more than a few times

honnestly nobody except Rammus players like when he's meta... his point and click taunt is all but healthy.

My only issue with tanks is their damages, so insane.. but still tanky. Could add these two to ur list Gragas Shen

Ralanr1 votes

Imo tanks need high bases to jungle and interact in their lanes.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

yeah, or could have a higher ratio against mob jungle. Because their base stat are too high. Having many cc, high damage, high resistance, good clear... i think riot should make a choice.

Add to this the cost of tank items

Ralanr1 votes

Remember that tanks are supposed to be able to fight in top as well.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

yeah i remember it clearly, but they need some weakness (riot seems to forget this).

Melledoneus3 votes

The weakness of a tank is they rely on outliving their opponents to win fights. Poke, skirmishing, and heavy sustain beats most tanks. After laning phase their damage falls off, and they rely more on their team.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I agree with ur post more or less... But their damage don't fall enough for most ATM (i really speak about now, galio, gragas, shen...).

Not related but... ur pseudo in green means u are a moderator ? i could swear u weren't a few week ago Oo

Melledoneus2 votes

Galio is overtuned right now, so I agree on that front. Gragas is more of an AP bruiser than a tank, by the way he is played.

Shen is an odd one. His natural damage falls off pretty damn quick, which is why Titanic Hydra is core on him. He also lacks the copious hard CC and disruption most tanks bring to a fight, so he makes up for it with a short moment of incredibly powerful utility and damage.

kasfas1 votes

{quoted}

heavy sustain beats most tanks.

This is true, but with the rediculous amount of sustain now it's really hard to play a tank. Most meta top laners either make very good use of lifesteal, and/or have built in sustain. Fiora, kled, riven, renekton, Darius, jax, jarvan. These are the most picked top laners at the moment and all of them fall into this category.

Only 6 of the top 20 meta top laners don't make great use of lifesteal, and don't have built in healing, but at least 2 of those run grasp and another two have the option to build sustain giving items that have some effectiveness.

Thus tanks (generally, there are ALWAYS exceptions to rules) get cucked in lane being unable to have any pressure.

I think there's not enough a tank can do to counter this excessive sustain at least in lane and that is why they (generally again) aren't good.


As an aside, I wish thornmail became a second tier item that granted armour and grievous wounds on receiving attack, and that could then be built into some anti ad items like:

Thornmail + wardens; 100 armour + both passives with reflect damage

Thornmail + giants belt:

65 armour + 425 hp + Thornmail passive + physical damage shield active

Thornmail + bami's:

60 armour + 425 hp + Aura inflicts grievous wounds instead of doing more damage.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly at this point I want a GW tank item because my carry doesn't build theirs.

kasfas1 votes

I swear I have decent ideas sometimes, I wish more communitiy ideas were openly tried instead of just ignored.

If you hadn't seen the community rune collection, I came up with like 12 of them easily, and I hope at least one of them in some iteration sees iteration in the new system.

Big Lincoln6 votes

i think shen is closer to a fighter by riot's own standards, tbh. picked for peeling power + his ability to duel very well

Melledoneus6 votes

Shen's CC qualifies him to be a tank in a weird way. He has one spell for CC, but can hit multiple people with it. Other than that his utility and ability to protect his carries from anywhere on the map make him an excellent tank.

To be honest Shen is best picked when your team has great engage but is lacking in protection for carries that can turn fights around, like hypercarries.

chipndip11 votes

...he's a warden...this is exactly what wardens do...

Melledoneus1 votes

Except most Wardens have more clear-cut tools and more CC.

Poppy, for example, has several ways to stop divers and protect her carries. Her W stops dashes, her E cancels them and she can lock people in place against terrain, and her ultimate can knock a whole dive group into the Milky Way.

chipndip11 votes

And Shen can globally shield anyone, draw aggro from from his carries for a bit, and protect anyone around him (including himself) from a barrage of auto-attacks with a small dodge zone. Shoe fits.

Melledoneus2 votes

It does, but it barely meets the quota. He has less hard CC than many fighters, which is the main factor of a tank. Also, he focuses more on beating down one person than collectively disrupting the enemy team, which is strange for a tank. That's why people are confused why he's classified as a Warden and not a bruiser.

Rainfall1 votes

sion is a "slow" champion in a game where an adc can kill you in 4 seconds in the lategame. thats why he gets mostly played in the support role.

Big Lincoln10 votes

that's more a problem with ADCs than it is with Sion

RainbowIcee2 votes

He's not overpowered that's why he's not played more. It is the reason why we have an unofficial "god tier"

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