The fact that Lee sin does close to same dmg as Kha triggers me.

dominusx·Dec 28, 2016·53 votes·4,020 views

And i mean kha has to ISOLATE someone to do this much dmg. Lee simply ward jumps into lane kicks you into the wall QQ E AA and you are either dead or 100hp. and guess what his Q is up in 3seconds anyway. The ult nerfs aint gonna do shit to him tbh. right now he is probably the only jungler than if he lands a combo during lane phase he automaticly wins the lane for his laner. And yes burning tp/ghost to get back to lane is an extreme advantage sorry goldies truth hurts.

32 Comments

TequilaZombieDec 28, 201616 votes

Khazix Single Rotation (Passive, Q, W, E):

846 Base Damage 390% Bonus AD 100% Total AD

Khazix Full Combo (E, Passive, Q, W, Q)

1101 Base Damage 600% Bonus AD 100% Total AD

LeeSin Single Rotation (Q,Q, E, R)

1140 Base Damage 480% Bonus AD 8% Target's Missing Health

LeeSin Full Combo (Q, AA, E, R, Q)

1140 Base Damage 480% Bonus AD 100% Total AD 8% Target's Missing Health

Looking objectively, Lee Sin does have a bigger burst than Kha'zix in a single rotation, however, during a full combo, Kha actually out damages Lee due to the 120% Bonus AD advantage, which outweights the 8% missing health by a fairly big margin (With a 400 Total AD Build, the target would need to be missing 4380 health for those 8% represent the same amount as those 120%).

If we take in consideration that Lee's damage is extremely gated by his ult, which has a 60 seconds CD and that Kha'Zix combo is gated by his E, which has a 12 seconds CD AND resets on kill, in the worst case scenario, Kha will be able to do his combo 5 times for every 1 time Lee pulls his combo off.

Without his ult, Lee's damage falls to: 540 Base Damage 280% Bonus AD 8% of targets missing health

Another point to look into, is that Kha'Zix Q, his main source of damage, is in a 4 seconds CD, with a potential 60% CD refund, reducing it to 1,6. Lee's Q, his main non-ult source of damage, is gated by a 7 seconds CD.

One extra point to take in consideration, is that Lee is gated by energy and doesn't have enough energy to use all his abilities without auto attacking in between to restore it, extending his burst window considerably. Kha has enough mana to use his whole combo once without any worries.

In short, Kha'Zix, in comparassion to Lee Sin, is more fit to assassination due to having 5 times as many windows of oportunity as Lee (being gated by his E [12 secs], rather than an Ult [60 secs]).

However, they both have basicly the same win rate, the same learning curve and the same winrate-by-game-lenght pattern. What does this shows? That you don't compare a fighter to an assassin because they fufill different roles using different gameplay patterns.

metabuserDec 28, 20166 votes

Except Lee has aoe slow, knock back, low cool down ward hop, and a low cool down gap closer. Kha doesn't have any of those things (unless you count resets as "low cool down".)

TequilaZombieDec 28, 20167 votes

Kha has a 1,6 seconds point and click burst, an AoE 80% slow that has a huge range, self heals, reset on his huge jump ability, can go invisible and get a movement speed boost without even using an ability or consuming mana an possibly inifinite amount of times AND has the option to have it on demand.

See? I can also make a champion sound OP just by listing the things he does well.

I could also make both of them sound underpowered as hell.

Lee main damage ability is a skill shot that can be both dodged OR blocked by minions and monsters, aside from that, if the target moves far away, he can't use the second part of it and loses both a gap closer and half of the damage of the skill. His other mobility tool requires a ward or friendly unit, so its highly telegraphed. If you want to just use your shield, you have to waste half of your mobility on it. If you ever want to have sustain, you need to activate your W TWICE! Even Udyr does it with only one skill and it lasts forever! His E range is so fucking small that unless you're in melee range you're never getting to land it on anyone. His only saving grace is his ult. Ohh wait! It sends the target AWAY from you, so if you want to use it as a burst to initiate a fight, guess what? You're sending they straight up to safety! This is not even the whole problem! He is the only champion in the game that CAN'T use all of his abilities in a row and needs to stay in melee range auto attacking to recover his energy for his combo, which delays it by a lot.

This clearly shows why he falls off so hard after the 35 minute mark!

See?

AdriqnoheeDec 29, 20161 votes

I don't think that was his goal, what I think he meant is that while Kha'zix has a higher damage potential, Lee is very close while still having a good amount of utility, so while Kha'zix deals a good amount of damage, that's all he can do, but Lee sin on top of having great damage also has great utility, which is why he is called a generalist, the problem with Lee Sin has always been that he does too much too well, outclassing pretty much everyone else, save some other problematic champions.

TequilaZombieDec 29, 20161 votes

The thing is: Lee can't get away with building full damage into the late game, while Kha'Zix can. While Lee get a nice mix of everything and does it once or twice in a team fight, Kha'Zix has insanely small CDs, a Jump Reset and a on demand invisibility, which allows his to do his burst multiple times in a team fight even if going glass cannon.

Lee is supposed to do more things than Kha'Zix (or most specialized champions in general), but he will inevitably be worse than them at it, but better than them on plenty other points. He is a bit like Gnar, who has poke, DPS, Mobility, CC, and burst. They both pay for it. Lee Sin by not being optimal at anything, Gnar by being gated by his fury.

If you want a good initiator, Lee can do it, but a Malphite will do it better. If you want someone to get a high priority target to your team, Lee can do it, but Blitz, Thresh, Gragas, and Hec will do it better. If you want burst, again, Lee can do it, but Kha'Zix will be better. If you want a durable mobile front liner, Lee can do it, but Maokai, Renekton, and Gragas do it better.

That's the price of being a generalist champion. You can do anything, but someone else will always do it better than you. The advantage is obvious, you can fill your team's needs much more easily and adapt through a game.

No matter how you look at it, it's not of any utility comparing a generalist champion to a highly niche one like Kha'Zix (or any other assassin).

AdriqnoheeDec 30, 20161 votes

Yeah and generalist have been shown to completely overshadow all competition, the only way generalists like Lee Sin aren't the top pick, is when there is someone that is heavily over tuned, Kha'zix can be one of the best killers is in the game, but unless he is so strong that no one else can take him on, Lee Sin and other generalists will always be a better pick.

GULAG 4 UDec 30, 20161 votes

Wrong. Kha'zix can't get 1.6 cd refund on Q and 80% slow if you don;t have 2 points in R.

You would need to do QW in order to perform what you've said, and most khas go QEW.

RequiemsfireDec 28, 20167 votes

I mean Kha'zix's tools are better for 1 on 1 assassination.

LaçezDec 28, 20167 votes

What I hate the most is how forgiving his kit is. Like seriously! Most people take flash to get out of sticky situations and whatnot, their champs maybe equipped with mediocre slows/ have a decent amount of mobility excluding Talon for obvious reasons, yet still I find Lee Sin is by far the most annoying and equipped with everything he needs...

Catch him out with low health... Kicks you away or he one shots you with his basic ass bullshit combo, when you are at full health and don't even have the ability to retaliate.
Trying to chase because he has low health? Ward jumps. TWICE! And Qs away (flash is still up, you know, just in case) Chasing you down for him however is easy, he's got slows, ward jumps, decent Ms and a gap closer on a ridiculously short cooldown (Q) - (of which is fair In my opinion).
If he engages bot lane and fails or anywhere else for that matter, he can Q away, Kick you away, W away & flash away. It is just way to forgiving for someone who has so much damage and the ability to tank quite well. Proceeds to spam mastery 7 Emote http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/desk-flip.png

DêcoyDec 28, 20163 votes

So, you tell me Lee has to land skillshot to kill you and Khazix has to see you alone on the map to land all of his POINT AND CLICK skills? Tell me more how Lee is worse than Kha, Kappa

dominusxDec 28, 20168 votes

Lee can wardjump point blank which removes the whole skillshot>point and click out of the equation. second kha does like 600dmg with a full combo without isolation lee does around 700 while also displacing you.

DêcoyDec 28, 20161 votes

Yup, he can. But then he has no way out if shit goes south.

dominusxDec 28, 20161 votes

because Kha can.....

DêcoyDec 28, 20162 votes

He doesn't have to jump on you. He can sneak up on you with his R, saving jump to escape if something goes bad. Or he can jump on you and escape with his R.

VesemirDec 28, 20169 votes

"Skillshot"

DêcoyDec 28, 20161 votes

So, his Q isn't a skillshot?

Sand CloneDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So, you tell me Lee has to land skillshot to kill you and Khazix has to see you alone on the map to land all of his POINT AND CLICK skills? Tell me more how Lee is worse than Kha, Kappa

he only has one point and click skill

Umbra IoniaDec 29, 20163 votes

I really tired of seeing him every game, just like Vayne. He is always tier god in jungle in all seasons, i hope Riot finally realize the blind monk need a kind of rework or major nerf.

MLDzXnRRRDec 28, 20162 votes

Lee Sin was some kind of assasin that got his dmg gutted. Just because now he is unviable as an assasin or carry, doesn't mean that he doesn't have comparable dmg. He is not a tank!!!!

FishlordDec 29, 20162 votes

Stop complaining, he has a 49.17% win rate according to champion.gg

B00B00Dec 28, 20161 votes

i mean he has to hit all of that too, you can dodge his Q and use the minions to screw his kick up or to screw his jump up, as in he is no longer in position to Q or kick, therefore no combo.

i agree he is a little powerful right now but he does have to hit his stuff which is all dodge able and counter play able.

Sahn UzalDec 28, 201626 votes

The annoying part is that R > Q > Q pretty much guarentees you'll hit it unless you mess up really bad. And between his Above average Movementspeed, items that provide him with mobility such as Deadmans or Black Cleaver AND his OTHER Dash (W), him getting that R Q Q off is not an unrealistic scenario.

Nameless VoiceDec 28, 20161 votes

Don't forget that he's also one of the only junglers you can't really flash away from because his Q mark lasts for so long, so he can just run after you and deal more damage before using his Q2.

SanKakUDec 28, 20161 votes

Can't you just Cleanse it off and then Flash? But yeah, players hardly ever get that combination, let alone Cleanse, and a Jungle champ obviously isn't going to be great without Smite.

Nameless VoiceDec 29, 20161 votes

I'm talking about his Q mark staying over your head, so you have to either wait until he uses it or it expires (it has a very long duration) before you can flash away without him just following you for free.

You can't use Cleanse to remove his mark. You might have been able to use QSS in the past (I'm honestly not sure?), but you certainly can't now that QSS only removes CC and not all debuffs.

SanKakUDec 29, 20161 votes

What? It's not like they nerfed Cleanse when they nerfed QSS. You can Cleanse anything AFAIK, the only problem is you can't cast summoner spells at all and that includes Cleanse if you are suppressed or knocked up or knocked back, and Lee Sin can do at least one of those things.