Sorry to burst your bubble; elo hell doesn't exist.

Rock MD··6 votes·989 views

Elo hell is a way to blame one's situation on uncontrollable events, rather than one's own play.

And I can tell you from the bottom of my hardstuck D4 ass that that's simply not the case. I peaked D1 and I know that I'm not playing optimally. Plain and simple. I see the faults in my own play and I'm in the middle of taking the necessary steps to fix that.

Yeah you might get teammates who are performing worse than average for a string of games but the problem is that you're literally blaming them for not picking up your slack.

In the case of the Plat guy who is stuck in Silver it is very likely that he simply isn't capable of carrying in this meta. Maybe his champion is bad. Maybe he's not calling the shots. I'm not here to criticize his play but to argue why the logic is faulty.

As someone who has played on 2 accounts right through Silver and has watched numerous Silver friends, I can tell you from experience that macro is nonexistent. Even in low Diamond it's barely existent, so most cases where someone is, "carrying so hard but my team sucks" he's just blowing smoke out of his ass. He was absentmindedly hopping from lane to lane cleaning up, farming, and refusing to push his advantage, so eventually someone decided to make a move and he lost off that.

That's what I see when someone has a 4.0+ kda and loses. That's what I see when you get that one cool kid in your class that's Platinum 5 maining Riven. It's all just aggressing and hoping you're stronger than the enemy until you get to Nexus, and some metas that's just a garbage strategy and so then they fall and try to blame elo hell. If this were the case then anyone and everyone could be stuck in Silver/Gold/Plat, and that's not the case because the only one that's even remotely a barrier is high Plat due to the fact you're finally getting Diamonds.

On top of that if you get bad teams and they cause you to be hardstuck for a considerable amount of time in an elo below your previous, wouldn't it be more likely that last season you got lucky with teams that performed superbly and you're suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias?

tl;dr elo hell doesn't exist. Games get frustrating, I'll give you that, but most cases of a "hard carry" grinding to a halt is the player having relatively good mechanics but relatively poor decision making.

19 Comments

Big Lincoln2 votes

"buh you're just blaming people for not picking up your slack"

https://i.gyazo.com/6f48d2bcc0066c19da833b6a397c3df3.png

yeah you're right dude, i guess i should have just played better : \

Rock MD2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AfqsZA6Y,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-07T03:13:00.874+0000)

"buh you're just blaming people for not picking up your slack"

https://i.gyazo.com/6f48d2bcc0066c19da833b6a397c3df3.png

yeah you're right dude, i guess i should have just played better : \

  1. That's one game. Again, that's nothing in the grand scheme of things and if that's your argument that elo hell exists let me tell you I've lost games where I was 20 and 3.

  2. You guys barely have towers and dragons. You need to spend your advantage on your team. Zone out their botlane for tower. Go splitpush and tell them to group around something and when you get 2-3 people on you do that objective immediately.

As qtpie said, if you go 20/0 and you don't win, you know whose fault it is? Yours for not being able to carry from a 20 kill lead.

Big Lincoln1 votes

kind of hard to carry with a 20 kill lead when you have 2 players with a 20 death deficit

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Rock MD2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you understand how elo hell exists. There isn't a single mmr system in the world that can properly sort 10 million players to their exact skill level in a 5v5 moba. There are simply too many factors. As a result, there will invariably be players who are stuck below their elo simply from variance. This is the basis of elo hell and it by definition has to exist anytime there is a ranking ladder which is not 100% perfect.

The problem with this mindset if you have no grasp of fluidity or circumstance.

You can be Plat 1 but play a match to the caliber of a D2 player, in which case you will (4 out of 5 times), win the game and be moved further towards D2. The next game you can play like a Plat 4 and you will (again, 4 out of 5 times) be moved further toward Plat 4. Does that mean your true skill level is D2 or Plat 4? No, it roughly averages out at Plat 1, and that is subject to change based on your average.

You play enough games at the exact same level of play (which isn't likely, as your skill level is influenced by everything from your anger to how much you exercised today to how much sleep you got) you will get around a >95% confidence level, and if that's good enough for scientists it's good enough for me.

But you almost never play perfectly. That's why I peaked D1 but I'm now D4. That is also why I don't say that "I play at..." I say, "I'm playing at..." It signifies a constant, and nothing in this game is ever constant.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

95% confidence level is good enough to start a discussion in science, it is nowhere near good enough to say with any level of certainty that something will happen. There is a reason why reproducibility of results is so important. Having one study something with 95% confidence interval just opens the door for secondary studies to verify the original point.

Anyway, scientific studies aside, 95% confidence level in a game with over 10 million players means that there are at least 500 thousand players who are not where they should be. That is a large amount of of players and their existence alone validates the existence of elo hell. On top of that, there are a large number of players who simply cannot play the enormous number of games needed for ranked to actually put everyone into the rank they belong.

At the end of the day, no matter how a given player plays, you simply cannot say that riot's match making is anywhere near perfect enough to put the millions of players into their exact right ranking. There are simply too many flaws in the system and to many factors for matchmaking to do that. There will be players who are far below and players who are far above the skill level that they play based on variance alone.

League's player base is so large that even if the system is 99.99% accurate (which is nowhere near reality), that is still over a thousand players who are not where they should be.

Again, that's if you could tangibly rank everyone, and that interval of dissonance would be for players who played champions who countered others' champions, yet are themselves not better players or odd situations along those lines.

But the problem is hard science doesn't provide proper statistics for something so in-depth. Sometimes you're making the right calls, have all the right mechanics, etc. to win. Sometimes you lose because people troll. Sometimes you lose because you got countered and simply couldn't carry. Sometimes you won because you got hardcarried.

But at the end of the day when you play suboptimally to your elo, you will gradually fall in elo, and when you play better than you're expected to, you will rise. It doesn't matter what you play best at it matters how you continuously play.

Ultimately it's an imperfect system tailored to an imperfect people, and that's what makes it so perfect.

CancerBasedGod1 votes

Are you insane or ignorant? Look I think it's great you made this thread to try and put anyone in ELO hell down. I mean that is a really classy move putting people down. However when you get autofilled support with an ADC who suicides 5 times in a game, well that's elo hell.

Rock MD2 votes

{quoted}

Are you insane or ignorant? Look I think it's great you made this thread to try and put anyone in ELO hell down. I mean that is a really classy move putting people down. However when you get autofilled support with an ADC who suicides 5 times in a game, well that's elo hell.

Elo hell suggests that there's one spot in the entire game where that happens. That's not true because there will;

-Always be people playing suboptimally -Always be mistakes in YOUR play -Always be circumstances at hand that are both out of your control and you have to sit by and watch, such as someone disconnecting or trolling.

This is true even in Challenger with tyler1.

But to categorize that into one specific elo or string of games, and not to say, "Okay shit happens but I also have good games." Is pure, utter confirmation bias.

Yeah for my last string of games I haven't had great junglers. I haven't played great either so the excuse that it's elo hell is silly because my losses are to a degree self-inflicted.

And great play isn't defined necessarily defined by score. It's about knowing the right steps to take to win a game. Knowing the objectives, shots to call, and communicating them with your teammates. That's why Tryndamere mains have 1 to 2.5 KDAs while Janna mains have 4+ KDAs, yet can maintain the same winrates.

CancerBasedGod1 votes

Yes there will always be occasional people who play suboptimal, but trolls pool at the bottom the elo pool, and become a matter of one on your team ever 2-3 games.

And honestly not surprised at all to here you talking about tyler1... not like you're a toxic person you know...

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

Yes there will always be occasional people who play suboptimal, but trolls pool at the bottom the elo pool, and become a matter of one on your team ever 2-3 games.

I'm looking at your games and you almost consistently look like the troll, if anyone is.

CancerBasedGod1 votes

Cool. Last game was a norm, and I was Janna, until in the last second of champ select, my adc went kat. Randomly clicked another champ and forgot masteries... My previous I had a teemo adc... Not much I can do to legitimately play a support there...

UltraGigaNiga1 votes

High plat isn't even a barrier if you're not garbage. Too bad I'm garbage feelsbadman

SarcasticShepard1 votes

There's some goober that deludes themselves into making this post every few months. Its great that you've got your own opinion on the matter. But, the majority disagrees.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

There's some goober that deludes themselves into making this post every few months. Its great that you've got your own opinion on the matter. But, the majority disagrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments

When did majority rule ever mean something was correct?

SarcasticShepard1 votes

Calm down, goober.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I feel like your logic is faulty.

You've taken two accounts through silver, there must be no problem in silver.

Now, perhaps I agree with you. I've gotten out of silver two seasons in a row, and will do it the third time. Now perhaps I don't. I had no difficulty whatsoever getting out of silver the first two seasons. This season I got placed in bronze 1 and it took me more games to climb to silver 5 than it took me to get gold each of the prior two seasons. Then I promptly have climbed to silver 2 promos in less than half that many games once I got out of bronze. Playing from unranked, getting to gold is quite easy with a few decent teams. Even top 40 percentile luck would get you to gold rather quickly. 40% squared is 16%, so there's a 16% chance you're a garbage silver player like the rest of them and you just got lucky twice.

Don't get me wrong - I don't really believe that. To say your own experience invalidates someone else's is pretty ignorant though.

First - I think the real thing is that there really isn't a big skill level difference between silver and platinum. I play with platinums, diamonds, and even the odd master/challenger tier player in normals. The platinums are typically no better than golds, and I typically beat-down my plat lane opponents (and promptly get smashed by their diamond 2 jungler or other laner). I get platinum borders in my ranked games and they typically do worse than the gold borders do (I've stopped checking all players ranks before my ranked games, it sets me off), and have entire games in silver where the decision making is sublime while games with all plat borders make unbelievable throws. So is there a difference between diamond and below diamond? Sure, I really do believe that. So just because a diamond player can get out of silver, does that mean Elo hell isn't real? Maybe you need to be Diamond to be able to do it easily, and even a Plat level player could get unlucky enough to be stuck there for 400 games.

Second - you've already argued it's because his champion is bad in the meta, etc... I don't believe this argument for a second. High tier players often argue that it's "so easy" to carry in silver/gold that you can play any "insert non-viable champion here" with "insert even worse build here" and still carry. If it was really true, it wouldn't matter who you were playing. Even though it's not true, it still doesn't matter. The game really comes down a lot more to decision making and knowing how strong your team and the enemy team are, so much so that a better player will do better even if on a non-meta champion. To quote my own experience again, I've simultaneously done fine (>55% win rate) playing normals with the average rank in my games being low diamond and losing (<45% win rate) in silver ranked. I've won top lane against a challenger one-trick on his main while a diamond teammate was winning lane against another challenger player in mid lane (then when they were each 0/2 they lane swapped and promptly spanked us - I'd like to blame it that I had already built a chain vest and suddenly was against an AP opponent but really, I'm aware that they just out-macro'd us) and then the next day played the same champion and went 0/4 in lane to a high silver player. Thing is - silver players aren't consistently bad, they're inconsistently good. This adds even more to the luck element, because if your opponents are on an "on" day they can hang with diamond players, and if your allies are on an "off" day they can feed to silvers.

I would say third but I feel like my argument has lost structure by this point. All I'm trying to say is that you can't really judge things on individual experience. You can see mistakes people make, fine. I watch challenger streamers and see THEIR mistakes ALL THE TIME. That doesn't mean they're bad. It means they make mistakes. It's VERY easy to see mistakes when you're not concentrating on playing. I watch plenty of high challenger players walk over a ward or walk where I've noticed an enemy placed a ward previously then get piled and comment "oh there must have been a ward there". Of course there was, you SAW THEM PLACE IT! But you didn't, I did. A gold elo player saw it but a challenger player didn't. It doesn't mean I'm suddenly better than them, it means that when I'm not worried about dodging a skillshot in lane and landing my own and having favorable trades and last hitting I can pay more attention to the map. I can see that the enemy jungler just showed bot lane as you top lane stepped back from a certain kill and said that you think his jungler is probably nearby and he's baiting you. I don't suddenly have better map awareness than a challenger player - I'm able to see it better because I'm not in the game. Likewise, you're seeing a lot of mistakes in silver because YOU'RE NOT IN THAT GAME. And if you're watching in spectator mode you're also seeing information they don't have - you see the enemy team's vision, etc... and that makes it even worse.

In low elo your allies make a LOT more mistakes. That makes it harder to carry. Even if you make fewer mistakes, that doesn't mean you'll be able to carry your allies mistakes. I've watched enough "unranked to diamond" or "unranked to challenger" videos to see these very high ranking players (who DO get to diamond / challenger on these new accounts) lose games in silver/gold. They go 8-2 in placements. Why are they losing 20% as a Diamond 1 quality player?? Doesn't that mean a platinum 2 quality player could feasibly go a while only winning ~50%? It really comes to grinding enough games just to make luck not matter and the small difference in skill really count.

Role selection also really matters. Thing in low elo is that it's WAY easier to carry mid lane or jungle than anywhere else. Top lane if your opponent picks a tank he can choose to not feed you if he notices an ally is going to carry. You can't do anything. Bot lane you're dependent on another player and if they can't play correctly at all you'll lose. Even if your the ADC and you out CS like mad, if the enemy ADC gets a kill on your supp every 2 min it won't matter he'll have similar/more gold and definitely more XP from the kills. If you're support you can set up loads of kills but if your ADC can't last hit for garbage it won't matter and the enemy mid that's ahead can roam and get juicy shut-down gold. Mid and jungler get a lot more map presence that makes it easier to carry in low elo. They can capitalize on mistakes much more easily (and they can target champions that are punished for mistakes while playing champions that capitalize easily).

I'm writing a lot, but I hope I've made you at least consider some of these things. I really don't believe elo hell exists, I just think that there IS a luck element and there's a game threshold to overcome it. With decent luck you'll get out of silver in 10 games if you're highly skilled, or maybe 100 games if you're high gold/low plat level. With poor luck you may get out of silver in 50 games if you're highly skilled and it could take 1000 games if you're only a bit better than silver. You need to put in the games to get there. Those numbers also depend on what you play and other factors - but predominantly just how much better you are and how lucky you get. A player who's low plat level could definitely get stuck in silver for a few hundred games - it wouldn't be an extremely unlucky scenario. I wouldn't call it elo hell - but it'd be very frustrating.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

snip

I got about halfway through that but I certainly agree with most of the content. I wrote something about it a few comments down.

{quoted}

The problem with this mindset if you have no grasp of fluidity or circumstance.

You can be Plat 1 but play a match to the caliber of a D2 player, in which case you will (4 out of 5 times), win the game and be moved further towards D2. The next game you can play like a Plat 4 and you will (again, 4 out of 5 times) be moved further toward Plat 4. Does that mean your true skill level is D2 or Plat 4? No, it roughly averages out at Plat 1, and that is subject to change based on your average.

You play enough games at the exact same level of play (which isn't likely, as your skill level is influenced by everything from your anger to how much you exercised today to how much sleep you got) you will get around a >95% confidence level, and if that's good enough for scientists it's good enough for me.

But you almost never play perfectly. That's why I peaked D1 but I'm now D4. That is also why I don't say that "I play at..." I say, "I'm playing at..." It signifies a constant, and nothing in this game is ever constant.

I would argue that you're right, based on the day or player, Silvers can outperform Plats. However, in ranked the Platinum player will have some sort of skills down that allow him to climb, whether or not he was actually good at the game. One tricking a champion would be an example. That's why I suggested MAYBE his champion is now bad at that's why he's Silver now. I'm aware that's probably not the cause but I needed something that someone could visualize.

But at the end of the day, people are very circumstantial, situational creatures. This is true of every little detail about our lives. That's why I trust an elo system. Over so many games, it is by far the superior way to measure how one is growing AS AN AVERAGE. On top of that, the relative slowness of it allows us to keep ourselves in check, especially for the players among us that are wildly inconsistent.

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