the new grasp looks wildly inconsistent.

Critmaster Garen·Oct 3, 2017·4 votes·921 views

the health stack mechanic seems nice on paper, but how useful it is will heavily depend on if you can repeatedly trade with your lane opponent for the first 10 minutes of the game.

if youre in a matchup against a tank like who doesnt deal a lot of damage and isnt afraid of trading with you nonstop, you might almost stack it off cooldown and come out of lane phase with 200 or 300 extra health.

but if youre playing against a ranged matchup on a melee champion or against a who plays like a bitch and farms with parrley and barrels from a distance for 10 minutes, you might get the opportunity to trade once every couple minutes, and end up with 50 extra health by the time lane phase ends.

would it be too crazy if the keystone worked on turrets and epic monsters to stack the health, to just make it somewhat more reliable? maybe even cannon minions.

of course it would need to give less health per stack, but imo it needs to be evened out a bit more.

i almost wish the health stacks would use the orb drop mechanic of lantern or dark harvest instead and you could stack it on nearby dieing minions and champions.

just spitballing ideas.

27 Comments

Sona PingOct 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-03T03:55:07.628+0000)

but how useful it is will heavily depend on if you can repeatedly trade with your lane opponent for the first 10 minutes of the game.

So just like the current Grasp.

It really is. Current Grasp's effectiveness depends on whether or not you are a tanky champion who is taking extended trades. You say "wildly inconsistent", I say "effectiveness dependent upon gameplay choices" and I don't see how that is inherently a bad thing. The game gives players who play into their options correctly more effect from them and Grasp's effectiveness, all the keystones actually, is dependent on choices from among those options.

would it be too crazy if the keystone worked on turrets and epic monsters to stack the health, to just make it somewhat more reliable? maybe even cannon minions.

If this was the case, it would still be argued to be "inconsistent" according to the standards of this thread because it requires the champion to be in a such a situation to do that, like already being ahead enough to contest those objectives, nevermind the fact that a grasp-tank top laner is not exactly going to be around a lot botside, taking Dragons to get those procs during lane phase. Even so, the champion is going to only get a precious few grasp procs which is only going to be fewer the more reliably your team is able to take those objectives. And by doing this and adjusting the amounts down like you suggested, it would exacerbate the problem you have with the mastery, or best case, not do anything.

for example even works like that.

when youre not casting spells for 24 seconds, the item stores up to 3 procs that you can immedately stack. its to make the item evened out a bit more across champion kits and how they benefit from the passive.

Grasp isn't Tear. I know it's an idea, example, but It's a justification about how it could be because they are both about resource gain but they are for entirely different purposes so it doesn't work. Tear isn't just a different option, it's an item that you have to invest gold into which means you can't buy other items, because you bought Tear which isn't worth the money you spent until you stack it. Tear has the ability to, in effect, store 2 stacks because for example, your champion may not have the capability to proc it when it needs to be used because you don't have any targets to use abilities on. Which is important to get the hundreds of procs you need for the item to work, which does not describe Grasp. Tear items are all about the stacking because it leads to an eventual power spike while not even being bought on many of the champions who traditionally used it anymore while Grasp is immediately effective and is useful on any tanky guy.

This leads into what the issue is.

if youre in a matchup against a tank like who doesnt deal a lot of damage and isnt afraid of trading with you nonstop, you might almost stack it off cooldown and come out of lane phase with 200 or 300 extra health.

but if youre playing against a ranged matchup on a melee champion or against a who plays like a bitch and farms with parrley and barrels from a distance for 10 minutes, you might get the opportunity to trade once every couple minutes, and end up with 50 extra health by the time lane phase ends.

You don't get what the upgraded Grasp is supposed to be. The mastery is not about the stacks.

The upgraded Grasp is Grasp + Veteran's Scars. Veteran's Scars got removed and put into the keystone. Maybe you didn't Grasp that because you are wildly off in your estimates of the amount of health champions would get from procing it, but that's what it is. It's Scars but players don't get to pick it to use at the start of the game, and to compensate tanks get a little more from it later, which is keeping with the trend of having tanks have more scaling benefits .

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

maybe, the bonus health you get off your next grasp proc could store up over time (every 4 seconds). so if youre not able to trade for 40 seconds, youd gain up to 50 health on your next grasp proc, where it caps out.

so youre not entirely forced to trigger it off cooldown to get the most out of it, but its still short enough of a duration to make you want to look for frequent trades.

it would just make the mastery generally a bit more consistent, and wouldnt make its power massively vary dependent on your lane matchup.

CochoOct 3, 20172 votes

If you cant proc it in a certain matchup, dont take it lol

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If you cant proc it in a certain matchup, dont take it lol

its just bad game design, when a ~~keystone~~ stack mechanic in general is unpredictable like that.

thats why most stack mechanics work off more than one source. to add a certain baseline to its power. i think the only exception is dravens passive which he only gets the gold for kills. and its probably one of the worst designed mechanics in the game. you can see how feast or famine it makes him.

its also going to make the power of the rune more inconsistent depending on the mmr youre playing at. i can imagine at low mmr, people will be stupid enough to trade with someone who picked grasp and constantly give the person the health stacks even when they dont have to. making the rune insanely powerful.

while at high mmr even a maokai may mostly play passive and farm with saplings and q when he can to starve his opponent on stacks and reduce his midgame impact.

changing the health stacks to store up to a certain value, like 10 stacks makes sense, even if the stack value has to be reduced for the extra reliability.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-10-03T04:42:06.624+0000)

its just bad game design, when a ~~keystone~~ stack mechanic in general is unpredictable like that.

thats why most stack mechanics work off more than one source. to add a certain baseline to its power. i think the only exception is dravens passive which he only gets the gold for kills. and its probably one of the worst designed mechanics in the game. you can see how feast or famine it makes him.

its also going to make the power of the rune more inconsistent depending on the mmr youre playing at. i can imagine at low mmr, people will be stupid enough to trade with someone who picked grasp and constantly give the person the health stacks even when they dont have to. making the rune insanely powerful.

while at high mmr even a maokai may mostly play passive and farm with saplings and q when he can to starve his opponent on stacks and reduce his midgame impact.

changing the health stacks to store up to a certain value, like 10 stacks makes sense, even if the stack value has to be reduced for the extra reliability.

I don't know what high mmr games you've seen where laners can get away with just playing super passive and letting the enemy walk all over them. I also don't know what kind of game you've been looking at where optimal keystones don't already vary based on what mmr you are in.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't know what high mmr games you've seen where laners can get away with just playing super passive and letting the enemy walk all over them. I also don't know what kind of game you've been looking at where optimal keystones don't already vary based on what mmr you are in.

no one said anything about letting their opponent walk over them. but people wont take dumb trades just to stack the mastery. and at high mmr you only look for trades you come out on top of, which means people are trading much less. especially since they respect each others power spikes and will play more careful.

if you cant stack the mastery, its going to be worthless for the rest of the game.

and you dont have other sources to stack it, like dark harvest.

even your gold comparison doesnt hold up. its basically the same reason why thunderlord has a base damage and doesnt scale purely off ad or ap. the mastery is supposed to give you a mix of reliable damage and a small portion dependent on how far you get ahead.

its not supposed to leave you almost entirely without a keystone if you cant get a lot of use out of it for the first 10 minutes.

QuephaOct 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T06:19:51.207+0000)

its not supposed to leave you almost entirely without a keystone

(except for the %hp damage on a short cooldown that is already arguably more powerful than a lot of other brawler keystones in extended fights)

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

(except for the %hp damage on a short cooldown that is already arguably more powerful than a lot of other brawler keystones in extended fights)

there is only one generic bruiser keystone, and thats grasp.

yea, if you play jax or irelia, you have multiple options in pretty much every tree.

what are you going to do when you play darius, garen, yorick or illaoi? stack the new fervor on a 1 base attack speed or pick the attack speed keystone?

if you want to go into resolve as primary path, you have only that one option with a lot of bruisers, since they cant trigger aftershock and they dont want to play as supports.

when the resolve tree doesnt support juggs properly, then something is just wrong, lol.

like if there was another resolve keystone that fighters without cc could pick, then the fact that grasp is a keystone thats only going to be relevant in 10% games would still suck, but we could just pick smething else.

but this is what im talking about when you make keystone runes too specific to champion kits, and the champions youre fighting on top of it. youll have champions without options and champions with almost every option who can freely chose these runes to their playstile.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If you cant proc it in a certain matchup, dont take it lol

for example even item 3070 works like that.

when youre not casting spells for 24 seconds, the item stores up to 3 procs that you can immedately stack. its to make the item evened out a bit more across champion kits and how they benefit from the passive.

so its not like its really good only on Karthus and worthless on mages with longer cooldowns on their spells.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-10-03T04:51:41.593+0000)

for example even works like that.

when youre not casting spells for 24 seconds, the item stores up to 3 procs that you can immedately stack. its to make the item evened out a bit more across champion kits and how they benefit from the passive.

so its not like its really good only on and worthless on mages with longer cooldowns on their spells.

That seems like a pretty bad example to me because most mages are completely unwilling to touch Tear unless everything in their kit lines up perfectly to wanting one.

You never see Tear on Ziggs, Annie, or Viktor; the Manamune line (which expands on the number of ways to stack) is pretty much only used on Ezreal and MAYBE Jayce (although that's extremely rare currently)

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That seems like a pretty bad example to me because most mages are completely unwilling to touch Tear unless everything in their kit lines up perfectly to wanting one.

You never see Tear on Ziggs, Annie, or Viktor; the Manamune line (which expands on the number of ways to stack) is pretty much only used on Ezreal and MAYBE Jayce (although that's extremely rare currently)

the comparison is correct, because tear is unpopular due to game time scaling and other reasons than HOW the stack mechanic functions.

its just an example of how almost all stack mechanics in league are designed to give you a certain base value to what you get out of them, and make them more predictable for balance purposes and a more reliable investment.

thats why Kindred can stack off jungle monsters to a certain value Chogath can eat anything to 6 stacks and keep stacking on jungle monsters Veigar stacks off many different sources instead of only champion kills

i could go on with this list, but you get the idea. riot does this for items and champion abilities to not make the power of these abilites vary wildly from game to game, but give them a certain base power and then some wiggle room.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

It's supposed to be inconsistent between champions, that's the point.

Champions are supposed to feel different, the runes you take with them are supposed to feel different, there are supposed to be different strengths and weaknesses, there are supposed to be special synergies that are unusually appealing, which means other options must be less appealing.

The only issue would be if a certain synergy was so strong that the keystone would have to be balanced around that one specific interaction and thus be useless on any other champion. Gangplank pretty much would be the best possible choice for 'stacking' grasp, but that fits into the pattern that GP already follows: weak early game with strong scaling into late. Just shut him down early like you easily can now and if he gets a level disadvantage that will more than make up for the extra health he has. But if you let him farm so he gets beefy with his item powerspikes, then you're going to have a hard time like you're supposed to. And we are still talking about a Gangplank with a weaker early game than a Kleptomany Gangplank and less burst power than any of the Domination keystones.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It's supposed to be inconsistent between champions, that's the point.

Champions are supposed to feel different, the runes you take with them are supposed to feel different, there are supposed to be different strengths and weaknesses, there are supposed to be special synergies that are unusually appealing, which means other options must be less appealing.

the rune is not just inconsistent between different champions youre playing, but also in how useful it is every game against the champions youre playing at.

grasp is just going to be way more of a nieche option than other keystones. you may be able to get a good use out of it in 10% of your games, and in the other games, its going to be entirely worthless.

this includes the champions who are supposed to want to pick it up.

like look at the other keystone options and how they synergize with specific champion kits but are agnostic to the matchup the champion who take these keystones are facing.

youre not forced to proc the new thunderlord or stormraider off cooldown to make it scale into midgame for example.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:09:05.439+0000)

the rune is not just inconsistent between different champions youre playing, but also in how useful it is every game against the champions youre playing at.

That's. The. Point. The fact that the new system gives away all the runes for free to every player means that Riot can now make runes more situational than the old set because that makes for a system that's "Think2Win" instead of "Pay2Win"

like look at the other keystone options and how they synergize with specific champion kits but are agnostic to the matchup the champion who take these keystones are facing.

Lethal Tempo: Seems the strongest choice for my main man Tryndamere to get a massive hp lead in short trades. Enemy picked Jax? GG this keystone is useless.

Fleet Footwork: Probably the standard for most Marksmen like how Warlord's bloodlust is now. The enemy is going Ezreal/Janna? Well forget trying to trade and skirmish in lane, I'm going 'Press the Attack' since it scales better and this is going to be nothing but a farmfest.

Press the Attack: Seems so nerfed compared to Fervor of Battle that I don't imagine I'd pick it unless something went wrong with the other keystones.

I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say the other keystones aren't situational.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That's. The. Point. The fact that the new system gives away all the runes for free to every player means that Riot can now make runes more situational than the old set because that makes for a system that's "Think2Win" instead of "Pay2Win"

runes are generally situational, but grasp is more nieche than the other runes. thats the problem.

and this heavily varying kit synergy doesnt work out very well, because it leaves some champions with a lot of options, while it leaves other champions with no options at all.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:25:06.034+0000)

runes are generally situational, but grasp is more nieche than the other runes. thats the problem.

It looks like one of the most generically powerful ones to me. Everyone has an auto attack, most tanks are sticky enough that they constantly fire them off in teamfights, and 3% hp damage with 1.5% healing every few seconds is going to be a nice damage boost for any of those tanks.

and this heavily varying kit synergy doesnt work out very well, because it leaves some champions with a lot of options, while it leaves other champions with no options at all.

Some champions having a lot of options is good. You are lying about some champions having no options.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It looks like one of the most generically powerful ones to me. Everyone has an auto attack, most tanks are sticky enough that they constantly fire them off in teamfights, and 3% hp damage with 1.5% healing every few seconds is going to be a nice damage boost for any of those tanks.

thats literally the same grasp as right now, while every other keystone that made it into the new system has received a significant generic power boost.

if you cant stack the new grasp you lose a massive portion of its power budget. and this loss is iredeemable. you have like 1/3 of a keystone for the rest of the game.

like look at the new version of stromraider. its more reliable to proc independent of the target youre facing, because it now works against tanky and squishy targets equally.

but it doesnt force you to proc it off cooldown to stack the movement speed bonus. which means the power it provides will always be consistent, or at least not nearly as inconsistent as what grasp will provide.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:36:48.087+0000)

thats literally the same grasp as right now, while every other keystone that made it into the new system has received a significant generic power boost.

Press the Attack is much weaker than Fervor, removing the stack limit is of little consequence when the stack rate was effectively cut in half, and losing stacks upon switching targets is devastating for a lot of Fervor users.

Electrocute now requires unique abilities so many champions cannot proc it nearly as easily, and its cooldown was massively increased.

Aerie is hot garbage compared to Windspeaker's Blessing, and that's as close as we get to a "bonus to healing" keystone.

Stormraider's also received a big cooldown increase which is massive for the champions who depend on that mobility.

You have not been paying very close attention to the new keystones compared to the old.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Press the Attack is much weaker than Fervor, removing the stack limit is of little consequence when the stack rate was effectively cut in half, and losing stacks upon switching targets is devastating for a lot of Fervor users.

Electrocute is now requires unique abilities so many champions cannot proc it nearly as easily, and its cooldown was massively increased.

Aerie is hot garbage compared to Windspeaker's Blessing, and that's as close as we get to a "bonus to healing" keystone.

Stormraider's also received a big cooldown increase which is massive for the champions who depend on that mobility.

You have not been paying very close attention to the new keystones compared to the old.

the new fervor is still being buffed. and the 12% damage amp at only 3 stacks is a lot of base power. so the fact that it stacks slower doesnt mean anything, when they put that power it into an upfront damage boost. you still have the infinite scaling when you can stay on target in addition to that.

windspeakers has become a standart resolve rune and still grants the same/more heal amp, and is something entirely different than aerie.

id argue that thunderlord is barely a fucking difference except that it deals more damage. and again, how much damage it deals doesnt depend on how many times you can proc it.

stormraider didnt just get a straight up stat up. its actually more reliable with the new mechanic independent on the target youre fighting. you dont have to be able to deal 30% of your enemies health in damage within 2 seconds. which means it makes little difference when used against squishy targets and gives you an actual keystone against tanky targets now when you pick it.

you havent been paying attention to what im actually talking about. none of these runes vary as heavily in the power they provide when used by the same champion like grasp does.

the fact that you never know that youll be able to stack it AT ALL will make it an incredibly shitty and unreliable rune, and not picked at all at any decent mmr if its not changed.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted} Lethal Tempo: Seems the strongest choice for my main man Tryndamere to get a massive hp lead in short trades. Enemy picked Jax? GG this keystone is useless.

Fleet Footwork: Probably the standard for most Marksmen like how Warlord's bloodlust is now. The enemy is going Ezreal/Janna? Well forget trying to trade and skirmish in lane, I'm going 'Press the Attack' since it scales better and this is going to be nothing but a farmfest.

Press the Attack: Seems so nerfed compared to Fervor of Battle that I don't imagine I'd pick it unless something went wrong with the other keystones.

I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say the other keystones aren't situational.

no, you dont fully understand.

these keystones might be less great or downright useless options against your lane matchups.

but their overall power over the entire course of the game isnt dependent on how much use you get out of them in lane.

if you use cant lethal tempo against jax very well, it doesnt get weaker against other champions or in other situations. most of grasps power throughout the entire game is dependent on how many times you can trade in lane. if you cant stack it by fighting your opponent, then its like you dont have a keystone for the rest of the game.

thats why dark harvest for example doesnt just stack on champion kills, but also on cannons, jungle monsters and kills by your allies.

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:30:04.862+0000)

no, you dont fully understand.

these keystones might be less great or downright useless options against your lane matchups.

but their overall power over the entire course of the game isnt dependent on how much use you get out of them in lane.

if you use cant lethal tempo against jax very well, it doesnt get weaker against other champions or in other situations. most of grasps power throughout the entire game is dependent on how many times you can trade in lane. if you cant stack it by fighting your opponent, then its like you dont have a keystone for the rest of the game.

thats why dark harvest for example doesnt just stack on champion kills, but also on cannons, jungle monsters and kills by your allies.

Have you ever heard of gold? If I lose my lane then I will get less gold and fewer items that I would use to capitalize on my keystone. Having extra attack speed for a few seconds won't mean diddly squat if I wasn't able to buy any AD for my autos. Lane phase is, was, and always will be the most important part of the game.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever heard of gold? If I lose my lane then I will get less gold and fewer items that I would use to capitalize on my keystone. Having extra attack speed for a few seconds won't mean diddly squat if I wasn't able to buy any AD for my autos. Lane phase is, was, and always will be the most important part of the game.

how is this an argument to make one keystone rune more unreliable than all the others?

QuephaOct 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AcLBrJqh,comment-id=000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:38:21.424+0000)

how is this an argument to make one keystone rune more unreliable than all the others?

Because it literally isn't. You get use out of a different keystone and you get more gold. You get more gold then that makes you better for the rest of the game. You proc grasp a lot in lane then you get more hp. You get more hp and that makes you better for the rest of the game. It's just power through a different channel so if you pick a different keystone and don't get use out of it to get an advantage/mitigate a disadvantage in lane then you'll end up in the same spot: weaker than you should be.

PoskeOct 3, 20171 votes

It should give triple the ammount vs ranged champions

BârdOct 3, 20171 votes

They want you to edit your page on the fly, based on what the game is looking like.

Don't know how they expect this to work in blind, but w/e.

KhristophorosOct 3, 20171 votes

I think it's a dumb effect because if your lane opponent is smart they will only trade if they can win the trade. If they know you have grasp they won't bother with even trades because it won't help them and it will give you free health.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think it's a dumb effect because if your lane opponent is smart they will only trade if they can win the trade. If they know you have grasp they won't bother with even trades because it won't help them and it will give you free health.

this is part of the reason why i think it should get changed.

another option would be to just say fuck it, remove the stacking and then increase the damage to 5%, make the healing scale from 1.5% lvl 1 to 3% or maybe 5% at lvl 18. make the proc itself powerful and fuck the infinite stacking.

if they want to add more to it, make it give like a flat 3% total health and be done with it.

on a 4000 health build at lvl 18, this would mean 200 damage and heal.

compare that to electrocute which adds like 400 to 500 damage to your lategame burst, itll be fine. values around 500 ad for assassins wont be hard to reach with those new runes on a full build around 30 minutes anymore.

or just revert it to the original concept they showcased for the rune and have the 3% grasp proc apply to any champion in a certain range.