i think that sustain on top of that mobility is too much it was kinda fine before the rework but now it is overbearing it makes ahri a low risk high reward pick plus an other things that bugs me a lot is that she gets the ms even without hitting nothing
Keevalroy3 votesKeep the heal, remove the random movespeed on her Q, nerf her W damage or the reliability, Decrease the E scaling, increase her ult CD, and put the 20% amp back on her charm, but the amp should only work with her spells since they're charmed by only her.
Bisaknosp3 votesgood that you dont work for riot you would overnerf her without any compensation lmao
Keevalroy2 votes20% amp...
Bisaknosp2 voteswow that is nothing, they have to revert many nerfs on w, ult (range) and q (mana cost) if they remove the ms boost and why would they nerf the w damage?? you have to be in basic attack range in order to hit it that puts her in great danger wtf without the q ms she would need more damage BECAUSE she has so much mobility she doesnt have so much 100-0 potential than other champs
Keevalroy2 votes20% amplification on spells that aren't getting hit hard is a lot. For a plat, you're pretty fucking dense. And notice how i said W damage OR reliability. I'm not talking like "Now W does 3 damage lawl," just a small hit so the charm amp wouldn't be so strong when she combo's you. She wouldn't need more damage to compensate the loss of the MS, when DFG was still a thing, a lot of high ranking Ahri's never even used it and still carried. That was from the amp damage. Hit the charm, and you can still have a kill combo. You won't be playing some mindless spammer than runs away like a frightened kitten anymore, you'll be playing an assassin again - what her identity truly is.
Bisaknosp2 votesiksdä i am disgusted by people who care about tier but whatever she is not an assassin she is a kite mage deal with it
The Sword Saint1 votesShe's not supposed to be an assassin, stop trying to make her into one. Riot tried that despite many ahri players insisting that it was a bad idea, and even riot was able to recognize that she's better of as a kiting mage.
Keevalroy1 votesNevermind that being a kite mage that no one could get to is what got her reworked the first time. But sure, that wasn't the issue.
The Sword Saint1 votesThat's not even close to accurate. She gained a damage amp on charm and lower numbers on her other skills because she was being played too much as a dfg assassin where they'd just dfg wr and kill people. They forced people to land charm first if they wanted to do enough damage to assassinate. It wasn't because her kite mage build was too strong or something, it was because they wanted assassin ahri to at least land 1 skillshot to kill a target.
Later on when they removed dfg, they decided it would be better to support kite mage ahri instead of do assassin compensation buffs, and dropped her damage amp in exchange for more utility in the form of the movespeed on q.
PiVoRx2 votesahri waifus: "shes fine as she is now" (op as fuck and i like it)
Dr Poro2 votesThey should increase her ability costs and make her passive refund the mana of one spell like they do with other champs that they don't want to give a passive.
No, but seriously, she currently has everything. Free escape Q, Free escape ult, Hard engage, poke, sustain, waveclear. I don't know how to play against her. Poke? She dodges everything with her Q and heals up whenever she screws up. Gank? Q is free escape, but she can also burst you instead if she lands her E so you have to be careful getting towards her.
She's currently just such a safe laner. It's impossible to engage on her, but she can engage on the slightest misposition and outdamages everyone if she lands her charm, which isn't that hard with 3 dashes to reposition into their face.
LadyRenly2 votes"overbearing"? I'd like to know how.
Poske2 votesSustain is the only reason i would pick her over Le bl so.. NO
Elphrihaim2 votesTo OP:
It is definitely not the case that Ahri -needs- a new passive. Your secondary justification for this is the changes made in her rework (which was a loss of damage in favor of utility). But her passive wasn't really changed, it was just made easier to figure out how much healing you're actually getting... At least, in my experience-- the amount of sustain offered by Essence Theft isn't really any different regardless of period.
The other--primary--justification for the topic title is one I do agree with-- Ahri is a very safe pick. She doesn't have a lot of weaknesses (and most of them are playstyle, not specifics).
Which is actually a good thing because it gives people something to latch onto, something that they want to play around with.
imo--she's not really ever low-risk + high-reward; she has the note of being able to flexibly choose, with most ability casts of every fight, which she's doing (lowering risk means dealing less damage, which means less reward).
The MS bonus being on her Q bothers me, too.
To address some of the other comments that bother me--
Mana Steal
Zileas' list of design anti-patterns basically states that at no point in time can reducing enemy mana function optimally in League because it's just never going to work out to good gameplay.
Mana Recovery
What, you guys want the nigh-uncatchable gumiho to be even harder to fight? Subbing out HP for MP sustain just means switching around what pots I buy at game start (two biscuits instead of a biscuit and a mana potion).
Or, worse, it just guts out her passive, because her current passive does have measurable effect but changing it for mana will have a much worse feel from the player side.
Some specific replies--
[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AbNxgjRY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-01T13:33:01.569+0000) She's currently just such a safe laner. It's impossible to engage on her, but she can engage on the slightest misposition and outdamages everyone if she lands her charm, which isn't that hard with 3 dashes to reposition into their face.
That is the biggest lie I have read about Ahri's damage in a long while :O
Her Charm doesn't...even do that much damage any longer, relative to the rest of her abilities it contributes much less than it did before-- because it no longer has a damage amplification effect.
So I mean sure, your argument is fine, but realize then that you just said that "[mage] outdamages everybody if [they land skillshots]"; and that does kind of make sense considering that the obvious reason why they dealt less damage is because they missed ("3 dashes to reposition").
Which is to say that you are stating that Ahri's gameplay is centered around moving and as her opponent you want to anticipate how she'll move (which is not the hardest thing to do, I've done it wrong too many times to call it easy, but it isn't that difficult to guess how a given opponent will play after playing against them a few minutes).
Which is to say that Champion A is not Champion B because Champion B has a kit that does Things, while Champion A has a kit that does Stuff. Which is to say that both champions have a reason to exist.
...If that train of logic didn't make sense just ignore it. I'm probably not explaining it well enough.
They should increase her ability costs and make her passive refund the mana of one spell like they do with other champs that they don't want to give a passive.
But if she needs a nerf, she doesn't need that kind of nerf.
Also name somebody that actually has a mechanic like this, because the only people that have mechanics even close to this are Nunu (ancient, and his passive actually works damn well and feels like a passive to play with) and Lissandra (who's passive has been stated on more than one occasion that it could and should be more or something else).
No, but seriously, she currently has everything. Free escape Q, Free escape ult, Hard engage, poke, sustain, waveclear. I don't know how to play against her. Poke? She dodges everything with her Q and heals up whenever she screws up. Gank? Q is free escape, but she can also burst you instead if she lands her E so you have to be careful getting towards her.
You...realize that you can make a parallel set of arguments for most champions, right?
Because what you do here is just highlight all her strengths without putting any of the weaknesses / points of contention.
Because Ahri doesn't have a ton of burst unless she uses her ult to go in (2-3 times), which means that she can't use it to escape (unless she tucks tail over a wall).
Also Ahri is best described as a 'generalist'-- she is able in multiple fields (has one hard CC, some poke, a smattering of sustain, good waveclear)-- but she isn't excellent in any of them.
y'know, like Lee Sin, just without the 7-abilities thing.
[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AbNxgjRY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-01T13:33:01.569+0000)
- Remove heal
If you do this you kill one of her thematics. Like... Soulstealer's going to steal souls and rejuvenate her own from it; and that is what a gumiho is-- and Ahri is a gumiho.
[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AbNxgjRY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-01T13:33:01.569+0000)
- Limit the MS buff on her Q to only proc after she's hit an enemy champion so she has to atleast aim her ability to get away.
I would just move her MS buff to W/R hits so that she only gets it while in a close range skirmish. It would reinforce the idea her ult and thematic set forth--
Play with your opponents by dancing into their range and strutting out of it; enticing them into thinking they can catch you when they just-- quite-- can't.
But as counterpoint to all of the massive wall of text I wrote above; I felt Ahri's role was better defined after her first rework (the one with the damage-amp charm), and it felt more fun because I couldn't just cower away.
But as counterpoint to that I'm addicted to the archetype so I'd make huge walls of text defending anything so long as it could still be justified under her species--that is, a gumiho.
xxxMadLionxxx1 votesYea I agree. She seems to have everything along with insane mobility. She has poke, true damage, cc, sustain, burst, consistent damage from ult, and insane mobility.
Bisaknosp1 votesshe only has good burst when she is extremely fed and well i dont think that is a reason to nerf her
warpenguin5551 votesya. i play ahri from time to time and im not a fan of her passive either
Serevas1 votesI think the heal is definitely the place to attack in terms of balancing her.
Her mobility is almost central to her character and it makes her hard enough to kill without her having free sustain, and sizable sustain at that even after the sustain to it. Since overtime they've given her even more mobility than she had previously, it's clear Riot doesn't wish to remove that aspect of her.
1000angrybees1 votesWhat would she trade her passive for though, exactly? I'm iffy on removing it, mostly because I don't know what else it could be traded for. Maybe her passive could just be the Q ms boost, but activated on every other ability or something?
PokladnicaZla1 votesMana steal.The answer is mana steal upon hitting 9 stacks.
The Sword Saint1 votesThe same passive, but getting mana back instead of hp, would be perfectly fine by me.
PokladnicaZla1 votesIt would fit her character and it doesn't have to steal mana. Upon hitting 9 stacks,her next ability will give her 1/2/3 mana per minions/monster hit ,champions and epic monster give 5/6/7.Q procs in both directions.
BakedLotion1 votesMake the movespeed apply after she hits all 3 foxfires
Bisaknosp1 votesi think you need to learn how to play against her
so much bs everytime i read an ahri qq thread XD low risk high reward? dude when she jumps on you and misses her charm she basically allowed you to damage/punish her very hard (if you can think/predict fast enough) well your fault if you get hit by hit its not hard to dodge and very predictable and you dont seem to play it right against her you can actually zone her pretty hard in lane (if you know how to play your champ) holy shit i feel like no one even tries to play properly against her 'muh sustain muh mobility cant win' everyone just calls up her strenghts and never even mentions her weaknesses so she seem like some op shiet she is not and i gave various reasons in other ahri qq threads already kind of tired to repeat myself every time
Teridax681 votesPerhaps it would be worth removing her Q movespeed and instead implementing it as her passive, where hitting an enemy champion with an ability would grant 
a massive short burst of decaying movement speed. Mobility is at the core of Ahri's playstyle, healing isn't, and overall she'd have an even greater degree of slipperiness without being able to recover as well from mistakes in lane.
Kat Goddess1 votesThey just nerfed her sustain... 
