Sharply buffing literally everything in Kai'Sa's kit after one patch probably wasn't a good idea.

TotalJerk·Mar 30, 2018·90 votes·3,595 views

What the fuck?

93 Comments

KaìjuMar 30, 201830 votes

I'm still of the opinion her range should be 550 and her execute should be greatly reduced, from 17-20% or whatever it is to like 5-10%. That way she doesn't just delete people late game through a play pattern of "If you don't die to four crits my fifth crit and execute will do the job" and make her early game easier to play because she won't be bullied out by so many champions. Her damage is high but she still feels kinda weird.

KanzlerMar 30, 20182 votes

So you want to require a 5 hit passive for a measly 5-10%?

KaìjuMar 30, 20188 votes

She would have normal marksmen range so she can get the hits off more safely plus it still stacks with allied CC, sure. Because as it is right now, I really wanna like Kai'Sa because her exosuit theme is cool. But every game I get four shots and just think to myself, "Vayne does this with more range, less autos, and true damage." And then I watch as I can't hit the last proc because I'm just out of reach and would have to E into the enemy to do it.

My Waifu VanillaMar 30, 20183 votes

Or....hit the W and apply 3 stacks since it does get evolved fairly early on in the game (2.1 items basically). Vayne also has less ways to actually get onto the target. Your ult more than makes up for the range difference between you and whomever meaning if someone else CC's them you can hit your W (that's 4 stacks), take your ult, use empowered Q, and then auto attack for the 5th stack and usually just kill them or at least do enough that they have to run away from you at which point you still have your E.

vgamedudeMar 30, 201830 votes

God forbid an adc is on the weaker side or just average. Noo no. Zoe was cried about hard and nerfed every single patch after her release before even seeing what she was like after adaptations.

Adc? Wait until people see and understand the character? wait for data? Nope just hard buff her consecutively multiple times out of the gate and hot fix buff her.

no bias

GayFluffyUnicornMar 30, 20187 votes

New champ that is already master tier with 20%pickrate and 52% average winrate in dia+. Mains already have like 61% winrate XDDD I think i haven't seen such a busted champ in a veeery long time except zoe but i just ignore zoe because zoe shouldnt exist. But don't worry boards riot is definitely NOT biased or plays any favorite cards. It is a mere coincidence an ADC gets like 10 buffs in a row without any testing or waiting for data they definitely do not try to force her to be toptier.

Tomoe GozenMar 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

God forbid an adc is on the weaker side or just average. Noo no. Zoe was cried about hard and nerfed every single patch after her release before even seeing what she was like after adaptations.

Adc? Wait until people see and understand the character? wait for data? Nope just hard buff her consecutively multiple times out of the gate and hot fix buff her.

no bias

Kai'Sa was weak on release. Due to her weird nature and builds, people struggled to find a balance sure but her laning right now still consists of having to level and evolve Q in order to deal damage and be able to clear waves. Her AA feels so weird to me because i don't feel like i do any damage unless i proc the 5th attack. But with low AS early, that's not an option on a champion you're forced to rush Q and isolate the target for maximum damage and who has a full utility ult. She really reminds me of Quinn, except she isn't as bad as her.

But still, you're forced to balance her engage on an edge case scenarios where you can cheese a passive proc from your allies or an isolated evolved Q damage, to then ult into them and go in for the kill. Her late game may be fine but she needs to reach it first. She's weak in teamfights if she's getting pressured from the start.

MuffledGarbageMar 30, 201814 votes

She was weak to the other powercreeped, overpowered ADCs

Tomoe GozenMar 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She was weak to the other powercreeped, overpowered ADCs

If you're comparing her to other Marksmen, sure. But i'm not making that comparison and neither is Riot. They specifically made Kai'Sa with Vayne in mind but she clearly isn't Vayne 2.0 because he intentionally has constraints in her kit to prevent snowballing with tons of utility. And a 5-hit passive that's a pain to proc on low AS in the early game so you actually have to rely on your W and ally CC to do that.

MuffledGarbageMar 30, 20189 votes

Every other marksman has been made insanely powerful to such a high degree that Kai'Sa, a balanced champ on release, had to be buffed in order to for her to catch up to the powercreep of other marksman

Kai'Sa before ALL the buffs had a super powerful lategame with a really weak earlygame and had to rely on her support + other teammates in order to succeed before she got her first 3 items

Kai'Sa AFTER all the buffs now has a super powerful earlygame with an even more insane lategame and can succeed in a solo lane as well as the ADC role while outscaling any solo-laner that isn't an assassin or another ADC

Kai'Sa needed absolutely NO BUFFS

In fact, if Riot had used Kai'Sa as a wake-up call that other ADCs needed to be nerfed, we'd be looking at a way more balanced game over the next couple of patches

Instead of Riot nerfing the ADC powercreep, Riot has decided to continue making ADCs the most important part of any given team

Weiss GuertenaMar 30, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Kai'Sa before ALL the buffs had a super powerful lategame with a really weak earlygame and had to rely on her support + other teammates in order to succeed before she got her first 3 items

So basically, she was the way ADC class is supposed to be. But when they actually behave that way as a whole, you have tears of whiny ADC mains flooding the boards. That's how we ended up with the idiotic "ADC2K17" situation and this horrible meta in the first place.

MuffledGarbageMar 30, 20186 votes

ADC2K17 was moreso because botlane had more value than any other lane(still does) and as such it was best tohave a 5-man dive party down there(or 4-man) due to the fact that Dragon was still giving global gold + the dragonslayer buffs

If a team DIDN'T bombard botlane then they were garunteed to lose against a team that DID bombard botlane

ADCs weren't getting the ability to play very often because the meta was becoming an earlygame meta

If Riot had just left the ADCs in the spot they were in, we would have had the opportunity to NATURALLY get Melee champs in the botlane

Instead Riot is forcing Melee champs to go botlane(see Irelia rework) and Riot is powercreeping those Melee champs in order to have them succeed. Riot's probably not going to be able to do this properly and end up with another Mordekaiser

Sadly, the balance team we have now only wants ADCs to be the center of a team and has officially stated that they want ADCs to be the star of every team, even if that means other teammates don't even matter in the long-run

ShinjusukeMar 30, 20181 votes

"officially stated" where, exactly? I don't mean "I heard this somewhere".

I mean "please provide an exact, indisputable link to this comment being made".

If it exists, great, because fuck Riot's champion favoritism. If not, don't fearmonger.

MuffledGarbageMar 31, 20182 votes

In the patch notes, Riot has officially stated with their actions that they wish for ADCs to be the most powerful class

Just a couple patches ago, Kog got rebuffed after getting a SMALL nerf

Twitch got a nerf and then directly afterwards got a buff to the same move that was nerfed beforehand

Vayne hasn't been nerfed even slightly

None of the ADC's generic problem-items have been nerfed in their actual initial burst item 3087 item 3094

ShinjusukeApr 6, 20181 votes

Links or didn't happen, please.

Again, without sourcing it's just fearmongering. I'm not saying it's not the kind of dumb shit Riot would do, I'm just saying taking your interpretation of Riot's action as an "official statement" by Riot is a bad idea.

MuffledGarbageApr 7, 20181 votes

Actions that Riot takes are still an official statement. If that wasn't the case then someone could use that argument as follows:

Hitler killed millions of Jewish people but taking that as an "official statement" that he WANTED to kill them is a bad idea

Obviously we know that Hitler DID in fact want to kill millions of Jewish people(and did), but your argument of
"Actions =/= official statement" isn't true because it can be proved otherwise.

Riot has consistently buffed ADCs who have dipped into lower winrates directly after those ADCs were nerfed

Riot has NOT consistently buffed any other class of champs whose winrates were lowered from nerfs directly after the nerf-in-question was issued

That fact alone shows that Riot wishes for ADCs to be the most powerful class

Riot hasn't made ADCs an optional class to take for a team, ever!!!

Riot has attempted to make champs to go into the botlane(See: Mordekaiser, New Irelia, Yasuo) but those attempts left the Solo-lane abilities of these champions FAR greater than what Riot expected which in turn made these champs initially overpowered before Riot nerfed them

ADCs on the otherhand have gone into Solo-lanes and hardly been nerfed down to the power level of other champions(See: Lucian, Corki, Quinn, Kai'Sa)

Remember when Lucian was nerfed to need more mana?

That's the time when Lucian moved into the midlane because he could lane-bully mages and assassins. The fact that a lategame-based champ is able to have such a strong earlygame means that at the time that Lucian moved to midlane, he was overpowered

Lucian afterwards was promptly nerfed because of how strong he was in the Solo-lane. Now Lucian-midlane plays similarly to a ranged assassin+ADC who scales up extremely well but hits a wall when lategame rolls around and Lucian-Botlane is almost impossible to play without having an enchanter support alongside the enemy not picking one of the meta 3(Vayne,Trist, Twitch)

The whole situation with Lucian reveals that ADCs are the most powerful class in the game right now, and Riot has continued to make them stronger

ShinjusukeApr 9, 20181 votes

So no official statement (which by the way, in your Hitler example a-la Godwin's Law would be literally all the documentation and discussion involving the "Final Solution").

I don't like Riot either, I just don't support witch-hunting.

VenomarMar 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

ADC2K17 was moreso because botlane had more value than any other lane(still does) and as such it was best tohave a 5-man dive party down there(or 4-man) due to the fact that Dragon was still giving global gold + the dragonslayer buffs

If a team DIDN'T bombard botlane then they were garunteed to lose against a team that DID bombard botlane

ADCs weren't getting the ability to play very often because the meta was becoming an earlygame meta

If Riot had just left the ADCs in the spot they were in, we would have had the opportunity to NATURALLY get Melee champs in the botlane

Instead Riot is forcing Melee champs to go botlane(see Irelia rework) and Riot is powercreeping those Melee champs in order to have them succeed. Riot's probably not going to be able to do this properly and end up with another Mordekaiser

Sadly, the balance team we have now only wants ADCs to be the center of a team and has officially stated that they want ADCs to be the star of every team, even if that means other teammates don't even matter in the long-run

Mellee will never, ever, be able to hyper carry AD DPS from bot lane. Let it go.

Theres a reason every single new or updated Mellee champ being released is tuned toward high mobility, good utility, and lots of burst(or piles of CC) . It has nothing to do with bot lane, and only to do with "this is the only way they can function in this game". They can't even balance top wich is 95% mellee v. mellee, but they're gonna make mellee viable against ADC in a duo lane with mage supports? Loool, okay kid, lmk when you wake up.

MuffledGarbageMar 31, 20182 votes

I never said that Melee champs should be allowed to hyper carry with DPS from the botlane. I said that if Riot had left ADCs untouched during the patches that the "ADC 2K17" meme came out that Melee champs would have eventually come to replace ADCs due to the mixed CC, slight defensive stats, and ability to stop dives that come from melee+support that an ADC+support wouldn't otherwise have

Also you agreed with me in your argument that Melees can't function without high mobility, high burst(or CC), and good utility

Do you understand that the REASON that Melee champs can't function without those stats is purely because without them, they wouldn't be able to kill enemy ADCs fast enough to help their team win the game?

If a melee champ can't kill an ADC or lock down an ADC with stuns for years, that melee champ isn't viable compared to the melee champs that CAN

ADCs = center of the game right now, deals most damage in crit-burst. Tries to kill anything and everything

Fighters = champs who try to stop ADC-killers

Tanks = champs who try and lockdown ADCs/ADC-killers

Battle-Mages = champs who try to damage enemy frontline so they can't get to the ADC fast

Artillery-Mages = champs who try and long-range snipe enemy ADCs from existence

Mage-Mages = champs who try and get single picks off an enemy team so that their ADC can kill the pick

Assassins = champs who try to delete enemy ADCs

Supports = champs who try to protect ADCs/Peel ADCs

This is mostly the state of the game right now, and it's disappointing that Riot has made it this way

Weiss GuertenaApr 1, 20181 votes

Also if I recall correctly somewhere around that time Turret FB was introduced (might be wrong on that one), and jungle was plain busted. All these non-botlane related issues were bound to be fixed even without touching ADCs, and cool heads were assuming "wait and see" attitude for those changes before buffing the shit out of ADCs. But crying was louder than sound arguments unfortunately.

Tomoe GozenMar 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Every other marksman has been made insanely powerful to such a high degree that Kai'Sa, a balanced champ on release, had to be buffed in order to for her to catch up to the powercreep of other marksman

Kai'Sa before ALL the buffs had a super powerful lategame with a really weak earlygame and had to rely on her support + other teammates in order to succeed before she got her first 3 items

Kai'Sa AFTER all the buffs now has a super powerful earlygame with an even more insane lategame and can succeed in a solo lane as well as the ADC role while outscaling any solo-laner that isn't an assassin or another ADC

Kai'Sa needed absolutely NO BUFFS

In fact, if Riot had used Kai'Sa as a wake-up call that other ADCs needed to be nerfed, we'd be looking at a way more balanced game over the next couple of patches

Instead of Riot nerfing the ADC powercreep, Riot has decided to continue making ADCs the most important part of any given team

Kai'Sa was made to take up a solo lane, jungle or bot. She couldn't solo lane because she wasn't strong early and she couldn't even duo effectively if even a slightest bit of attention was thrown her way by the jungler or TP ganks bot. Then you're delaying her "core" to eventually 30 minutes, at which point she's too weak to even contest anything because she's then becoming "decent" while every other champion has outscaled her. And 3 items to get her core? Really? Half of inventory (not including boots) is what you call fine?

Just imagine any other mage, tank or a fighter in the same situation. This isn't even true for their power spikes. They all spike earlier.

I think you took "ADC in 2k18 LUL" meme a little too literally. The way people advocate for weaker Marksmen is what worries me. If you want to advocate that a Marksman cannot be a self-sufficient champion, then you're always going to tie them to a lane with a support. And you'll never have position diversity, even if Riot opens up bot lane for more picks than just ranged ADCs.

MuffledGarbageMar 31, 20182 votes

Kai'Sa worked on solo lanes on release. Kai'Sa's earlygame was just like Gangplank's. Farm and wait to scale up and then trash anyone who gets in your way once they HAVE scaled up

Kai'Sa didn't work in botlane because of her scaling like how ADCs used to scale

Before Riot made gold-value changes to ADC items(and other buffs), ADCs wouldn't be useful until around the 30-minute mark when they had 3-4 items

Delaying an ADCs "core" to 30 minutes is what ADCs are supposed to DO. Riot initially thought this and supported this

ADC2K17 was brought about because the elemental drakes weren't a thing, so it was just dragon. Dragon gave global gold(a lot of it) and gave buffs for every time you killed a dragon. This made 4-5 man diving parties at botlane popular because it was impossible to defend against as just an ADC+Support

After getting a free kill against an enemy ADC+Support, the dragon would also be free to take because enemy teams wouldn't have the manpower/damage to contest

If a team didn't use this strategy against a team that DID use this strategy, the team that didn't use this strategy would lose. GUARUNTEED

ADCs being almost useless until 30 minutes and 3-4 items in was a part of League's main draw to being an ADC. Sure you'd have to wait a while BUT then you become unstoppable afterwards(assuming team is grouped up and peeling properly)

As of right now, there is no phase in the game where an ADC is weak. ADCs get to deal as much damage as AND Melee champs' earlygame, more damage midgame with an RNG change to deal even MORE damage, and then lategame ADCs get to consistently run over any Melee champ that wanted to have fun

Melee champs have a slightly good earlygame, a great midgame, and generally a worse midgame than any ADC ever will have

I'll have you know that NOBODY is asking for Riot to make marksmen unplayable. NOBODY!!!

what people are asking for is for Marksmen to have an actual weak earlygame if their lategame is supposed to be where they shine(generically speaking)

Outliers like Lucian, Corki, Vayne, and now Kai'Sa are able to abuse most champs in the earlygame while proceeding to outscale most champs in the lategame. This leaves these few champs with 1 "weak" point in the entire game, and that's the midgame

The midgame is really just a point in the game where ADCs have a small chance to be shut down. A point in time that, if missed, will result in a loss for whichever side doesn't have the lead(assuming two teams are equally skilled)

There are Mages and Fighters that are in a similar position. Veigar won't ever have a really good early-midgame(even if he farmed Q perfectly) without an enemy messing up horridly and dying to him a lot. That would make it the fault of the enemy

Jax's early-midgame are famously exploitable for how easily he can be shut down at those times. Until the 30 minute mark when Jax has 3-4 items, he isn't very useful

Karthus's early-midgame is only good against melee champs, and even then he's extremely vulnerable to any jungle pressure and/or mobility. Until Karthus finishes 3-4 items, he isn't going to be doing much besides farming and waiting to scale

If you are willing to say that Kai'Sa deserves to scale as fast as other ADCs, then in order to be fair, you would also have to treat all other lategame-scaling champs the game and make their earlygames' as good as every ADCs while making their midgame a stalemate period and finally making their lategame a BEAST of nigh-unbeatable abilities + basic attacks

LordGeovanniMar 30, 20181 votes

Prevent showballing 20% missing hp passive and scaling skills.

Tomoe GozenMar 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Prevent showballing 20% missing hp passive and scaling skills.

Percent missing HP means that it works almost as an execute passive. It's weak if you're full HP, it's stronger the lower you are.

CppLMar 30, 201827 votes

adc are not allowed to be weak.

VelvetCrotchMar 30, 20181 votes

Look at vayne. Never really be touched for many seasons

Baron of BreadMar 30, 20188 votes

Look at her patch history. You may notice some finagling with her Q's crit interactions and the AD granted by her ult.

KetiMar 30, 20185 votes

Feels kindred man

LordGeovanniMar 31, 20184 votes

Kindred isnt weak. she isnt oppressive as other adcs. anymore but still plenty oppressive. Kindred suffers from no body wants to frontline syndrome.

RainbowIceeMar 31, 20182 votes

well this was also because people were bitching everywhere that "kai sai wasn't doing good as they wanted her to be" so RIOT buffed her. People need time to adjust to a new champion so give them at least 2 patches so people can get used to the new champ before buffing them. Then do slight buffs not this. People need to hold their shit together before they all jump to the "this champ needs a buff" mentality.

MuffledGarbageMar 30, 201813 votes

It's because other ADCs are grossly overpowered and Riot wants to make sure that ALL ADCs are grossly overpowered to match up with the other ones

Supreme Senpai69Mar 30, 201810 votes

She was fine. I played her a good bit and while somewhat weak, she was very straightforward and fun with a variety of play styles. I can see why people would do poorly on her. Using her E locks you out of damage for a short time. Her ult does no damage. Her W is a skillshot. There is definitely a learning curve on her.

I'm just really glad Riot listened to the hundreds of Kai'Sa players out there who asked for her specifically to NOT be buffed--

oh wait lol

chipndip1Mar 30, 20188 votes

They buffed AP builds more than anything.

TotalJerkMar 30, 201833 votes

Meta is to build all 3 stats to get all 3 upgrades. Her core is

item 3812 item 3115 item 3124

That means the changes are a straight buff for most Kai'Sa players.

Moonfall SaberMar 30, 20182 votes

if anything I think she is weaker due to the ad and ap lowered on item 3124

Auz the RipperMar 30, 201811 votes

I’m pretty sure the on-hit damages alone makes up for the loss of raw stats and at full stacks the raw stats are roughly equal. Adding a full .1 bAD and .1 AP to each autoattack is really strong on a champion that likes on-hits and both those stats.

LordGeovanniMar 30, 20182 votes

Meta or popular. cause you can more reliable beat an ap stacking kai sa than a crit attack speed kai sa

TotalJerkMar 30, 20181 votes

That's what high elo players are doing, and that's what they are suggesting on the Kai'sa mains sub. All three of her evolutions are strong power spikes and all three of those core items have strong synergy with her kit.

LordGeovanniMar 31, 20181 votes

w only needs to be evolved if you sit back and poke (aka play her wrong) and even then you can just build item 3508 have 30 % cdr for all your spells and do the same thing with one less passive stack but the enemies hp will be lower when your passive procs because you out put more damage in general and crit.

TotalJerkMar 31, 20183 votes

There's a huge difference between being able to proc Rupture in 3 autos or 2, especially when the build I previously mentioned gives just as much CDR along with the CDR refund you'll be getting.

I also don't understand why you're acting like W is merely a poke spell.

CatastropApr 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Meta is to build all 3 stats to get all 3 upgrades. Her core is

That means the changes are a straight buff for most Kai'Sa players.

That is the most messed up core build I've ever seen. What is champion supposed to be doing?

TotalJerkApr 1, 20182 votes

Her kit basically scales with everything offensive, and she gets spell upgrades at 100 permanently built AD, AS, and AP. That core gives her 100 of all three stats in the fewest possible items while having the best overall synergy with her kit.

SephAgroMar 30, 20187 votes

She's an ADC. What did you expect

RaoulMar 31, 20186 votes

Not enough people bought the Kai'Sa bundle, RIOT wanted more profit.

Teridax68Mar 30, 20185 votes

What annoys me the most is that there wasn't really any excuse for Riot to make this mistake, which is the same mistake they've made for practically every recent champion release. Scores of players were directly telling Rioters to be cautious, that players need time to learn her better, and to buff her conservatively with regards to how she evolves in the game's meta. The response? A perfunctory comment telling us that post-release balance changes are always done with extreme caution, that Riot wouldn't do anything of the sort if they didn't strongly believe that those buffs were warranted, and that balance changes go through a rigorous vetting process before they even hit the PBE. Fast forward to now, and Kai'Sa has a 52.8% win rate and a 20.8% play rate at Plat and above. She has been way overbuffed, and so in a manner players have critiqued repeatedly before those buffs were even made known to us. We don't need more blanket post-release buffs, we need Riot to give new champions time to adjust so that their true potential can be properly assessed.

What's more is that Riot has also said that they'd be unwilling to revert these buffs, because whichever direction they'd take her following nerfs would somehow make her even healthier than immediately following her release. Riot needs to listen, and they need to change their balancing strategy with respect to new and overhauled champions. If they tell us again that they're implementing a post-release buff in absolute certainty, Kai'Sa will be but one of many examples that show that they've gone down that exact same path before, and are most likely to cause the same problems.

LordGeovanniMar 30, 20184 votes

I dont think that ive lost a game with her yet because im not trying to stick garbage ap on her over crit ad and attack speed.

TerozuMar 30, 20181 votes

Ummm they didnt. They increased her range on q and autos, nerfed w, and buffed q damage.

They literally only buffed q and auto range.

TotalJerkMar 30, 20184 votes

The W "nerf" was only to adjust for the fact that her W applies passive stacks and they had just buffed her passive. When you buff her passive, you buff her W. Also they very much did buff her passive, E, and ult.

TerozuMar 30, 20181 votes

Ok afyer double checking.

Passive unchanged.

Q executes low health minions. Increased ap scaling.

W funneled its damage into Q. (Not at all you said)

E after evolving got a movement boost and they nerfed the stealth movement and disable time.

Ult unchanged.

Ad scaling over game lowered.

TotalJerkMar 30, 20186 votes

Why are you lying to my face?

Base attack range increased to 525 from 500.

Second Skin

AP ratio per stack increased to 20% - 40% (based on Plasma stacks) AP from 10% - 30% (based on Plasma stacks) AP.

Plasma detonation AP ratio increased to (3.75% per 100 AP) of target's missing health from (2.5% per 100 AP).

Icathian Rain

Range increased to 600 from 575.

AP ratio increased to 40% AP from 20% AP.

Void Seeker

AP ratio reduced to 45% AP from 65% AP.

Supercharge

Charge duration reduced to 1.2 - 0.6 (based on bonus attack speed) from 1.5 - 0.75 (based on bonus attack speed).

Minimum movement speed increased to 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75% from 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60%.

Killer Instinct

Radius around enemy champions increased to 525 from 500.

NEW EFFECT: The shield is now granted on-cast. Still lingers for 3 seconds after dash ends.