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About the Karma buffs on PBE...

SilverSquid··15 votes·7,319 views

New Karma changes are on the PBE.

  • Defiance (R+E)
  • Bonus shield value increased to 30/100/170/240 from 30/90/150/210.
  • AP Ratio increased to .6 from .3

So, I will try to sum up the last few months:

Karma Issues

  • Lacking thematics (conveying karma/enlightenenment/duality/...)
  • Lacking nieche (why pick her over other supports/midlaners)
  • Mechanical depth is missing (too little things to master)
  • Damage falloff in midlane
  • Lack of reliable CC as support

Things that the community is usually asking for

  • Change to her passive
  • Ally function for her tether W
  • Shieldbomb damage RE

Things that Riot is aware of

  • Karma is not in an "acceptable" place
  • The rework (3.5) wasn't particularly successful
  • Karma feels bland and too similar to things already seen
  • Karma could use the work (but working on groups of champions is more efficient).

Things that Riot is buffing

  • W cooldown
  • Base mana regeneration
  • W manacost
  • RE shield values
  • Yes, that's 4 buffs in ~7 months.

http://orig06.deviantart.net/93c1/f/2014/337/d/3/karma_league_of_legends_by_firey_su-d88m2rm.jpg

My assumption is, that, instead of adressing Karma's lack of damage, they try to push her into a lategame shieldbot. This makes her scale better (fixing lategame fall-off) and makes the other spell just CD provider for even more shielding. So, dealing more damage for more shielding, I guess? Somewhat dualistic?

The problem I see with this, is the kind of one-way thinking this promotes. Everyone agrees, that midlane Karma is an RQ bot in lane anyways (RW's and RE's utility can't compare with the damage). So all spells just help hitting RQ. And in teamfights, she is now supposed to do the opposite? Hit as many Qs and Ws and AAs as possible, to get more REs out?

Maybe this makes RE a viable competitor for midlane Karma in teamfights, but I am sceptical. I liked Karma because she provided mediocre damage with mediocre utility at the same time. Now you always have to decide between somewhat good damage and somewhat good utility. I appreciate that Riot is taking the time to do something about Karma, at least in short term goals, but I don't know if this is doing the trick.

Personally, I just miss being able to decide between all my mantras in all situations, feeling clever for choosing a successful one. Now it feels so obvious, that it's not a decision anymore.

http://orig13.deviantart.net/9a09/f/2015/221/d/6/yandere_trance_karma_by_demimond23-d950gvv.jpg

Either way, what are your thoughts?

EDIT: Some context from Rick Maher's Twitter

  • TA | Drasnen "why was Karma's R + E buffed? Do you have any plans for her Q?"
  • rick maher "no plans for Q at this time—want to help her scaling on her other abilities so she has potent options outside of poke late"

46 Comments

Hupsis3 votes

Be patient. She will get more work when Riot takes on the support mage class in the future.

I'm sure Riot would like to work on Karma but right now they are focusing on other champions that need attention more than she does. These slight buffs are only short term answers.

SilverSquid11 votes

The support mage class is so full of healthy and distinct champions it's unlikely to get adressed in the next 2 years.

I fully support Riot's decision to focus on groups of champions at once and I can forgive them their mistakes in the 3.5 rework. But I've yet to see any Rioter adress/justify is the removal of shieldbomb in 5.10.

The frustrating part is this:

  • The community asks for a W ally function -> Riot buffs W manacost and CD
  • The community asks for shieldbomb back -> they buff shieldvalues

It makes me wonder if there is a missunderstanding the community, this is some really weird accident or there is a design problem, they are not telling us about.

Voluug131 votes

My problem is that Old Karma was much closer to Swain/Malzahar that she was to Lux/Lulu, IMO she should have gotten work together with them in the midyear update, but yeah.

And the likely thing is, they dont want to put much work into Karma. They until just recently have been trying to make believe Karma's rework was a sucess and she was fine, which is clearly not true. Its going to take them a while to admit she needs anything more number buffs, which is what the Karma players have been saying since the post rework buffs took place.

Also, lets remember Riot and Scarizard reduced Old Karma's kit to ''muh OP bait passive'', completly ignoring everything else that was part of it, very unique things like the AoE heal and the game's best shield and best team speed up.

SilverSquid1 votes

I would've said Swain/Ryze/Vlad, but with less damage and more supporting. This could've been a nieche right there, a short ranged support mage. But I don't think back then Riot was thinking too much about nieches yet.

I am not sure. I think they don't see her as a problem in the current state, because she is not impacting the game badly and her playerbase is still comperatively low. The meddler answers a few days ago were certainly helpful at determining what riot thinks about Karma in general, but not at finding out what they are planning with her (they kind of keep adressing her in patches, but only light heartedly) or what they think about 5.10.

Yeah, they didn't get her thematics straight back then. They talked a lot about the passive, but I don't know if this is because it was their only concern. I think they just wanted to give good reasons for removing it, because it was liked by many.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

What did Meddler say about her? I apparently missed it.

SilverSquid1 votes

In THIS thread the question was asked.

Why hasn't Karma been considered for the mid-year mage update?

Quepha commented

Riot has already said that it's because Karma is a support-mage instead of just the generic 'mage'.

There are a bunch of mages in the game that are just generic mages and they kind of stomp all over each other's feet to find a reason to be picked.

Meddler replied:

Pretty much. There are enough mages in LoL we can't do work on all of them at once. As a result we decided to focus our efforts on mages from two subcategories, those with sustained damage patterns (Vlad, Malz, Vel'Koz, Cass, Brand to some degree) or those that revolve a lot around getting the right pick at a decent range (Zyra, Brand to some degree). We'll also be doing some smaller scope work on a number of other mages from those sub classes, though are still figuring out which ones at present.

Some of the more supportive mages, Karma especially, could certainly do with some work to make them more distinct. A lot of the champs in that category though do feel like they're overall better off in that regard though, Ori and Morg especially. We concluded as a result that it was more valuable to focus our work on other groups for the mid year mage update.

Vesivian followed up

So, is that a no in terms of whether Karma will be updated, or a yes that Karma will be updated?

You have not pretty much answered the intended question behind the question on hand - Are we going to see changes made to Karma?

Supportive Mages are still Mages in nature, Ori and Morg are definitely distinct enough, however Karma is not on their level of distinction.

Apart from having different power spikes in game, Karma also plays out differently as to how she was first envisioned.

What you've only mentioned in your reply was why X champion was focused over Y, while contradicting yourself by acknowledging you felt the same way about Y champion lacking distinction. Karma suffers from the same problem with the rest of champions slated for an update (lack of distinction) yet we're not considering her because of her class, even though your first concern with the update were champions who lacked and needed more distinction. I bet that many Karma players want to know what you are allowed to say more about her because communication between the Karma fanbase and the balance team is a literal mess at the moment.

Also, it took a number of Karma-related threads for some time just to elicit a response from you too, so tell us if Riot is going to relook at her case file and decide if she can use a second-rework, not just an update.

To which Meddler replied

We're not planning any major changes to Karma at present.

From our perspective original Karma had a number of problems that left her pretty non functional much of the time, unhealthy at other times and good fun at some points too. That prompted a rework which, overall, hasn't been particularly successful. It was done at a time when we didn't have a dedicated team for rewoks and frankly it shows in her kit. Revised Karma's a more functional, healthy champion, but also in many ways a pretty bland one, with a lot of tools on her kit that feel too familiar, even if there's some interesting nuance to their use. I wouldn't say she was weak, I'd certainly agree she wasn't sufficiently satisfying or distinct though.

As to why we're not working on Karma at present the short version is that we felt other champions needed the work more or would benefit from it more. Concentrating the team's focus onto particular sub classes is also something we believe yields good results (multiple people exploring the same concepts at the same time results in better discussion, team support). As above pick mages and sustained damage mages are the classes that, overall, we felt would most benefit from some focused work, so we've chosen to work on those at this time.

Hupsis1 votes

Maybe they will include some of those aspects in her future rework. For now they are just playing safe and not make her mantra spells overlap with each other while keeping her kit simple. Having a shield bomb would make it less attractive to use R+Q or vice versa.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

{quoted}

Be patient. She will get more work when Riot takes on the support mage class in the future.

I'm sure Riot would like to work on Karma but right now they are focusing on other champions that need attention more than she does. These slight buffs are only short term answers.

Soooo...in about 1-2 years? Okay.

IxtaliKing1 votes

At least 2, it's 2+ years away from now.

IxtaliKing2 votes

It seems like riot have decided to make shielding her niche, maybe with this change we will want to pick her when we want shields? It's just so poor. It just makes me wonder who's feedback they're taking when it comes to Karma, since it's clear they don't have public discussions about her and are not interested in taking part in any. The most common things I've seen come up about Karma in past year were about her shield bomb, ally w functions and giving her a new passive, so I'm confused as to why Riot decided on even more shield :/.

SilverSquid13 votes

It feels like talking to my senile/half deaf granny.

"Gran, I really love Karma's duality." "I know, honey! Here, I removed her shieldbomb to make her shield more." "No! Why? I don't want it to just do more of the same. It's boring." "More of the same? Okay, the root will now root for longer. Hope you like it." "No grandma, I liked it before. No more shielding or rooting, I liked the damage." "No, you didn't. Here have more shielding." "Gran...."

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol its exactly like that too

TNHA Baritone2 votes

Did Gran take her meds? Smh

#RitoTakeUrMeds

Voluug132 votes

Honestly I am annoyed at Riot trying to force her to go support and support alone.

At least give her back her damage on Midlane, if they are not going to rework her again.

And the buffs to RE wont help her other lanes either, partly because those lanes depend on RQ to lane at al due to the lack of waveclear. If Riot had kept the shieldbombing, then yeah it could have opened other laning options. But currently her falling off when in roles where she should be putting out the hurt is still horrible, and that is something Old Karma didnt suffer at all (partly because Old Karma's kit scaled better and was a better sololaner).

Vanjie2 votes

Karma doesn't need that much work. Instead of updating the right things with Karma, all Riot is doing is buffing her numbers. They said there are problems with her abilities that feel to similar and unappealing, but here they are trying to force the same unappealing abilities down our throats. Instead of buffing the numbers why don't they change the functionality? WAIT just get rid of the current E+R and give the community back her old E+R.

She really only needs a new functionality or BUFF to W or W+R, a new passive, and her old E+R. How much work could that be compared to the eight to nine months they spent on Soraka? All of the tether animations are in the game. All of the shield animations are in the game. All they need to do is move her current passive to R and make it to where it doesn't proc the E+R at all. THERE YOU GO. KARMA IS UNIQUE, DISTINCTIVE, AND INTERESTING.

This is either Riot's last chance at trying to force this new E+R on us by buffing the numbers, or they don't care and are going to leave it entirely. Riot is probably going to continue buffing just numbers in her abilities. If you think they will EVER change anything substantial about her kit . . . . even after her horrible rework they admit to screwing up on, then you are delusional. Meddler seems very adamant about keeping Karma the way she is not giving what the community asks . . . . or even attempting to give us what we ask.

  • Fire Meddler and replace him with someone that will do the job better. Problem solved.

Call me a female dog . . . but I just had enough of these Riot developers. I cannot stand them at this point. They cannot justify spending eight to nine months on Soraka and not change one or two abilities . . . OR ANYTHING on Karma when they know she is not the best she can be. Buffering her numbers is doing nothing.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Karma needs changes aimed to returning her flexibility and versatility. Right now she sees a lot more flexibility in the Support role but her solo lane roles mostly consist of her just being used as a poke bot with some teamfighting capabilities. A lot of the reason why people originally played the old Karma was because the old Karma could viably use her Mantra on all of her abilities depending on the situation and even the playstyle of the user. Now Karma simply relies on spamming her R > Q.

Miku Lv991 votes

Yeah this is a bad idea. They should make her have options in her mantra in that all of her abilities should scale similarly enough that they're worth considering endgame. They way that stands, it could be a 540 HP shield for your entire team if you had 500 AP. That's a total shield of 2700. None of her other abilities would be nearly that powerful. They'd be much better off increasing the AP ratio on each of her mantra'd abilities by .1, rather than one of them by .3.

Voluug131 votes

They should give back hr RW damage and/or shieldbombing instead of this, since she was looking still underpowered even after those compensation nerfs.

EDIT: And the mantra options is a problem of the nature of Mantra.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I'm unsure as to why they changed the RE Damage a while ago. Every one of her roles benefited from the Shield-Bomb:

  • Support: Easier and Safer (but not too damage) poke helps in lane trading
  • Top: Damages Melee heavy hitters who try to get up your face while protecting yourself
  • Jungle: Same as top except versus jungle monsters
  • Mid: Gives you a reliable combo to use if you the enemy had stronger abilities (i.e: W > Q > R > E vs Zed or Leblanc would negate some of their damage)

They tried trading some of her RE power onto her rooting yet it's still unreliable (sharp movement and it fizzles out) unless you have hit your slows (and if the enemy has a dash then you're screwed)

It's obvious that they don't want to give her more damage. They haven't touched her Q, her main damage tool (not saying it needs buffs **or **nerfs) but if they were going to give her more damage, you would think that they would siphon some away from her Q.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I'd be willing to take a nerf to her RQ to get the RE damage back tbh

IxtaliKing1 votes

Rickless says they're trying to give Karma more potent late game options outside of her RQ poke, that's the context behind the RE buff... lel

SilverSquid1 votes

Thanks for mentioning. Took me some time to find it. Linked it in the post now.

I love this guy for trying, but really? Removing the bonus damage on RW, nerfing her early duelling power, just to buff W a few months later to buff her early duelling power. And also removing the shieldbomb to not make her endgame too oppressive, just to buff it a few months later to fix Karma's shitty endgame.

I would find that totally acceptable, maybe even relatable, if this hadn't butchered Karma's playstyle....

IxtaliKing1 votes

I think he personally likes the direction he's taken with Karma, as does a portion of Karma's player base who didn't really exist before her changes. For that reason he can just double down on his 5.10 changes and that would make some people happy, but completely alienate her original fans. Don't be surprised if you see her RW root duration increased to 3.75 or 4s at some point, and a portion of Karma players applauding it for solidifying a strength she was never intended to have. You will notice there are a few people on here who will downvote you for even asking questions about Karma, it's an uphill battle to even have a decent discussion. Ultimately though, old Karma and pre 5.10 Karma fans will lose out in favour of the newer Karma players who like her overly simplified mantras.

SilverSquid1 votes

You've started sounding bitter, my friend.

I have a certain concern about a designer playing the champion he is working on, as he can get dragged away by his own visions, instead of listening to what the community craves. But then again, a designer having a burning passion for the champion should generally be a good thing, right?

I don't think he sees the same in her as we do. Whatever "we" means...

IxtaliKing1 votes

Bitter? I'm salty af man lol. I mean I will probably always play Karma, since I'm just very accustomed to her kit, but I am very disappointed in Riot. They've handled Karma so poorly people think she's just a support and should be treated as such, nobody even knows what she is now it's ridiculous lol.

SilverSquid1 votes

I am really confused about the rating. I am fluctuating between 5 and 0 upvotes. Really weird.

This community intrigues me.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Bunch of haters, I can't stand when people down vote without giving some kind of feedback as to why :/

Ludovico1 votes

My thoughts? Scrap the whole rework.

League has evolved in a way, that old Karma/Xer wouldn´t stand out at all.

CoolKnightST1 votes

Their are plenty of topic about her and riot still doesn't seem to understand what they are doing wrong. It's almost like they known what's wrong with her but try to buff everything expect what's wrong with her. If these buffs continues whe will become the most broken champion ever ones they finaly implement the correct fix. I quote again:

She just needs 2 things & 2 things only:

  • #New Passive: ???
  • An new passive, similar to her original passive "Innate".
    • Old: Karma gains increased Ability Power corresponding to her % of missing Health.
    • Sug: Karma generates stacks over time that she can consume as bonus Ability Power for het next ability. Karma can only consume 10/20/30/40/50 ability power add the same time (levels 1, 5, 9, 13, 17).
  • #Passive Gathering Fire:
  • Is now a passive for her "R Mantra"
Erockandroll1 votes

I think riot said they would look at some changes during mid season mage update. She wasn't part of the main 6 because Riot was convinced that she wouldn't need any art assets to accomplish this.

They are probably just giving her a nudge in the mean time, letting us know they are looking at her.

If this buff was an indicator of Direction, it would seem like Riot is trying to support her Utility. (Even for her mid lane build.) .6 AP on an AoE shield is quite a lot. They are probably trying to make all of her Mantra abilities feel good to use, regardless of whether she's the APC or the support. (So giving that shield an AP nerf is huge.)

SilverSquid1 votes

I think riot said they would look at some changes during mid season mage update. She wasn't part of the main 6 because Riot was convinced that she wouldn't need any art assets to accomplish this.

They said they wouldn't focus on her, for good reasons. They also said they don't plan anything big on her. Anything in between that is thinkable.

.6 AP on an AoE shield is quite a lot.

The AoE part is only half the value. So the total scaling will be 1.1 on the main target and 0.55 on the AoE part.

hey are probably trying to make all of her Mantra abilities feel good to use, regardless of whether she's the APC or the support. (So giving that shield an AP nerf is huge.)

I'd guess so, yeah. And I would even love to honor this attempt, because it seems reasonable. But then I remember that they are fixing problems that they created themselves by removing the shieldbomb. Which is why I am conflicted.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

http://orig13.deviantart.net/9a09/f/2015/221/d/6/yandere_trance_karma_by_demimond23-d950gvv.jpg

Karma yandere face! adorable, even though I usually find Karma repulsive.

Those two pieces of art are lovely.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Karma is a support. You shouldn't expect mid lane buffs for her. The ability to tether monsters was disturbing enough.

SilverSquid1 votes
  • Primary: Mage
  • Best winrate in: midlane
  • Reworked as: Mage Support akin to Lux, Morg and Ori.
IxtaliKing1 votes

No, according to Riot she's a mage in the same subclass as Orianna and Morgana.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

No, according to Riot she's a mage in the same subclass as Orianna and Morgana.

According to Riot Ashe is a support, Azir is a marksman and Yorick doesn't exist.

Karma is a support. She has a higher win rate in mid because she lost utility, and now they're giving it back.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Ashe is a marksman primary and azir is actually a mage marksman, Karma hasn't lost any utility she's lost damage. They've taken away all her other damage options in favor of utility, that's why people like you think she's just support; because they have began to force her into being a support. Karma is still a mage primary until riot come right out and state otherwise.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is a marksman primary and azir is actually a mage marksman, Karma hasn't lost any utility she's lost damage. They've taken away all her other damage options in favor of utility, that's why people like you think she's just support; because they have began to force her into being a support. Karma is still a mage primary until riot come right out and state otherwise.

The shield bomb mechanic is ridiculous. You get to speed up your entire team (Sona E), give everyone on your team a shield (Sona W) and burst the enemy team with no missile speed, no projectile, no cast time and no chance to dodge other than flashing away from the tank. (Kind of an Orianna R, but at least the enemy team has a good idea which champ the ult will come from).

Giving her more powerful shields will improve her support ability while keeping her mid around the same.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Not really, you can make any ability sound ridiculous if you pick it apart like that. When that ability was live it was balanced and felt satisfying, but anyway it's gone now.

Evenstar1 votes

What the heck? Yeah sure

Ashe Primary: Marksmen Secondary: Support

Azir Primary: Mage Secondary: Marksmen

Funny, why are you using secondary roles in your argument, when Karma is primarily mage and support second.

Oh, nevermind, doesn't sound like a sound argument. Yorick doesn't exist? This guy is senile.

Vistha Kai1 votes

OP, I've seen you repeat it multiple times and my grammar nazi sense is getting crazy. It's "niche".

Now that I got it off my heart...

Honestly, I have no idea who is responsible for those Karma changes or why they think they are good ideas.

Actually scratch that. Cheese for no one. There seems to be a hidden from the public, internal Riot policy considering balancing. It goes as follows:

"Under any circumstance should you ever touch the root of a champion balance problem until you exhaust every other option. If everything else fails balance the problem and leave the rest untouched."

It happened soooo many times in the past, I'm 99.(9)% certain a rule like that does exist and everybody that has or had anything to do with balance does have it pinned somewhere near their monitor.

Also yandere Karma got fucken saved to my fap folder.

SilverSquid1 votes

OP, I've seen you repeat it multiple times and my grammar nazi sense is getting crazy. It's "niche".

Oh dear, why did nobody ever tell me? I am sorry, I am not a native speaker. Thanks for pointing that out!

Honestly, I have no idea who is responsible for those Karma changes or why they think they are good ideas.

It's rick. I even linked him. Im kind of having my beef with that guy. If I had a twitter I guaranteed I would've commented already.

He is doing Shyvana and Karma. He was also responsible for 5.10...

Vistha Kai1 votes

Oh dear, why did nobody ever tell me?

Perhaps they don't know it themselves.

It's rick. I even linked him. Im kind of having my beef with that guy. If I had a twitter I guaranteed I would've commented already.

Ah. Ricklessabandon. Should've said right away.

Wait... wasn't he that guy who said/is rumored to hate Karma and/or never actually played her? He was responsible for 5.10?

Holy shit, we are boned.

On the side note: That moment you realize Ricklessabandon is more active on FFXIV's reddit than anywhere regarding LoL combined.

SilverSquid1 votes

On the side note: That moment you realize Ricklessabandon is more active on FFXIV's reddit than anywhere regarding LoL combined.

I couldn't care less what the guy does in his sparetime. He can love as many lolis as he likes and weeaboo all over the place.... as long as he does his job, I can't complain.

Wait... wasn't he that guy who said/is rumored to hate Karma and/or never actually played her?

He....I.... what? I mean, that's what I would've guessed after seeing the 5.10 changes, because it completely ignored the intricacy of her mantra use and only adressed superficial spell patterns, which usually only inexperienced players fall for (those who didn't even know RE dealt damage and stuff). But... is there any evidence for this? I don't wanna believe something on rumors, even if I wanna believe it. Because if that were true, then shall Kindred have mercy on his soul, for I will not.

Vistha Kai1 votes

He....I.... what? (...) But... is there any evidence for this? I don't wanna believe something on rumors, even if I wanna believe it. Because if that were true, then shall Kindred have mercy on his soul, for I will not.

Truth be told, I may be making up things now, but that's what happens when you try to remember a guy who didn't post for like 6 months.

On thing I'm sure about is that there was a Rioter who was responsible for champion changes of a champion he openly stated he hates - - - Oh wait. Or was he... Maybe...

Can't tell for sure now. It was quite some time now.

Oerba No Naja1 votes

I think that riot doesnt care at all , they want her to be a support . and its been patchs that they try to make her viable with numbers tune . However i dont think it will make her as strong as Lulu they are both very versatil champs but lulu is better because of her on ally / on enemy mechanic

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