Lifesteal is still a plauge of game balance

deadlychuck··30 votes·1,885 views

Pretty much the title. It causes massive mid-fight bulk and provides more healing than all for 1 soraka. The only counters don't even half it, and are more a side effect of creating a counter to healing supports.

It's the only stat in the game which inherently converts one side of the offense/defense stat divide into the opposite, after spell vamp was removed. Though, even spell vamp was mostly problematic on champions which had no costs associated with their magic damage, where as lifesteal is triggered by something which costs the champion nothing.

81 Comments

DunkinNoobs10 votes

Do you know why lifesteal exists? Can you honestly tell me the reason lifesteal exists as a stat? There's a very distinct reason, but I'm curious if you actually know what it is.

CannonLordFreed1 votes

There is?

DunkinNoobs5 votes

Give Riot at least a little more credit than that.

I'm sure you can imagine what the reason is. Go ahead, give it a shot.

CannonLordFreed1 votes

I'm still new with game design, but if I had to guess, lifesteal exists to give squishy ADC's dueling power. I can't think of any other reasons.

DunkinNoobs13 votes

That's part of the reason. The other reason it to make failing to burst down a squishy champion more punishing, both in duels and in teamfights. Hard committing to the enemy adc should be a risky strategy, but it wouldn't be if any damage they took stuck until they backed. It also gives adcs a chance of actually surviving bruisers if they get the help they need. Finally, it makes poke less oppressive later in the game where it's already very strong. Imagine how well champs like Xerath would do if lifesteal didn't exist.

Spicy Rice2 votes

God, don't remind me of the days where siege mages were meta.

Jmman1 votes

Funny because I remember the "siege mages" were a lot of the same META mages now. They were just changed for siege to burst mages in name.

Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Karma Karthus Kennen Morgana Nidalee Ryze Ziggs which of these poke mages were op?

cause the ones you are thinking of AREN'T poke mages. Poke is not losing 25% to 40% per hit that is burst.

Spicy Rice3 votes

I was thinking more Vel'koz, Xerath, Ziggs, arguably lux etc

Jmman1 votes

those can kill you in one spell rotation. That sounds like burst.

Mine take a while to kill you.... well Nidalee was a bad one because she had wayyyy too much damage.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Siege mages were simply mages who had fast efficiently waveclear, so that you could "siege" towers

Jmman1 votes

I see your point. I just always thought of them as mages that keep the enemys back so you could ping the turret. But I'm sure you could also see mine

But yes I think the same few mages have been above average for too long. Its ok to return them to par. because the mains will still be good.

Votable Jester1 votes

Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Karthus Kennen Morgana Ryze you call these siege mages? xD

Jmman2 votes

OK then why did they take it from Squishy mages? Do they not fit what you said the reason is?

So if the only want it for AD then its that kind of bias?

Next they don't affect poke late game. They affect if Early mid and late. Its that kinda crappy for poke mages then. Because at the present META I don't see a lot of poke mages with good win rates. All I see are burst and assassins mages. This would seem to point that it kinda screwed over poke mages. If the later is the case where are the buffs or item for poke or dot mages?

DunkinNoobs3 votes

{quoted}

OK then why did they take it from Squishy mages?

Mages have so much else going for them that giving them sustain on top of it would be too much.

Jmman3 votes

Really bro???

AD have so much else going for them that giving the sustain atm is over the top.

can you give examples?

DunkinNoobs4 votes

The have the highest range, they have high amounts of CC, and they have high amounts of burst.

Votable Jester4 votes

Jhin : great range, fairly good cc, high burst with setup, ok burst/dps without setup. Corki : some decent ranged poke, high burst, also has mobility and hard cc with setup. Varus : good range, ok burst, good cc without setup, great cc with setup Caitlyn : good range, great conditional range, decent burst (trap auto -> E + auto), good zoning cc, slight mobility/self peel.

Sure mages are generally better than adcs in those categories, but there are some adcs that aren't far behind. They also have some of their own strengths over mages (primarily in the form of dps, but also sometimes mobility and lifesteal).

Holy Fervor1 votes

The important part is the CC/Utility that they bring. While some marksmen do have it (Varus, Ashe) They don't really have the same level as most mages do. Some mages are built with this in mind, such as Swain, Kayle, Ahri, Morgana, Ryze at one point, Cass. Instead of itemizing for it, they have it innately.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

OK then why did they take it from Squishy mages? Do they not fit what you said the reason is?

Because it was impossible to balance champs like Vlad, Morde, and Swain around Spellvamp and they ruined it for everyone else.

Troll for Trump1 votes

It punishes you for failing your burst, but Riot keeps nerfing burst.

So now lifesteal is overbearing as a result. It punishes hard when it shouldn't be.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Not only that.

Lifesteal also ties the ADC's survivability to their damage output. That both emphasizes the need for ADCs to build offensively and also makes them susceptible to burst damage and interruption, while guaranteeing that they need to be focused to be taken out entirely. If Lifesteal did not exist, ADCs could be taken out by incidential, non-focused AoE damage quite rapidly. That would mean that their uptime in fights gets drastically lowered - and they'd need to be balanced around that. And balancing them in that way would either make them horribly oppressive in the little time they stay up (increasing their damage output) or make them more survivable through health and resistances, negating their intended weakness of burst damage and interruption.

Rainfall9 votes

apcs have extra hp from their basic items. adcs have lifesteal.

Zerenza12 votes

ADC's are meant to be squishy, and while they are in many cases 2 auto attacks from any ADC with a Bloodthirster will basically heal them to full health. As we know, ADC's are the primary damage dealer's on most teams, which means that they aren't sacrificing that damage for their effective tankiness.

An ADC can have around 3000 effective health against an assassin or bruiser who's trying to kill them, and all they need to get that health is buy a bloodthirster or some other lifesteal item such as Black Clever or Deaths Dance, did you notice something funny about all three of those items, each one gives tank stats or effective tankiness along with life steal. Death's Dance makes 15% of all in comming damage DOT, which is pretty damn nice for a squishy ADC, even though it's intended user's are Fighter's, Bloodthirster gives a shield, black clever gives HP and Armor Shred, making the ADC deal even more damage if they build it.

I'm sorry but, AP Carries don't exist, they can't do the same thing that an ADC can, they aren't tanki enough, they can't shred enough defenses and they don't deal as much damage as easily.

Honestly, if Crit and Lifesteal were reworked somehow, i think game balancing for ADC's and many champions that use those stats excessively would be much easier. In the two year's i'v played league the most unbalanced states i'v seen the game in were from ADC's being too strong, abusing other classes items, being to safe, being to tanky, they cause problems because the mechanic their built around is flawed.

LankPants3 votes

I'm sorry but, AP Carries don't exist

There's Cass, but otherwise you're right.

Skins Project3 votes

Azir Ryze But yuhknow..

State of those champions....

LankPants1 votes

Azir and Ryze are less carries than someone like Ahri right now TBH. They just don't have the power to actually carry.

Skins Project1 votes

Uhhhhh.....

MY entire point is "Ap carries" as a class have always been nerfed. Because they rely on skill, and hence need to be balanced around top-teir.

Votable Jester1 votes

AP carries rely more on positioning and protection (so they can get their dps off like an adc). This is skill in both the individual player and the team as a whole, making them more powerful for pro play than yolo queue. To summarize it as just AP carries relying on skill suggests that the more traditional mages do not take skill, which is outright insulting.

Skins Project1 votes

It's hard to deny the skill cap is exceedingly high.

I apologies if I offended you however, it was not my intention.

My point was more that Ap carries generally speaking are "Spam Mages" whom do not have the burst, but rather rely on survivability and constantly dealing high amounts of damage. Hence making them exceedingly powerful in group/coordinated play or on a higher level overall, making them generally speaking "Shit" because of their potential as carries.

Votable Jester1 votes

Yeah I know I overreacted a little, but as I main traditional mages it was a bit insulting. I didn't think you meant to insult, and I do agree that there is certainly more mechanical difficulty in those champions (do to much more constant in-fight motion and target selection mostly).

So yes, I agree with you on everything there, and simply disagreed with an unintentionally implied statement there. Sorry if I kinda flipped out. xD

Skins Project1 votes

Okie Dokie

Rainfall6 votes

lifesteal allows adcs to both be squishy and unkillable by tanks who need several rotations to kil you thus more time. Thats the point of lifesteal. If an adc builds defensive stats he is sacrificing damage thats for certain

YumaS2Astral2 votes

Well, defensive stats may in theory force the ADC to sacrifice damage.

The problem is that currently most lifesteal items offer high amounts of AD. As such, there is no downside to building them.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

ADC's are meant to be squishy, and while they are in many cases 2 auto attacks from any ADC with a Bloodthirster will basically heal them to full health. As we know, ADC's are the primary damage dealer's on most teams, which means that they aren't sacrificing that damage for their effective tankiness.

An ADC can have around 3000 effective health against an assassin or bruiser who's trying to kill them, and all they need to get that health is buy a bloodthirster or some other lifesteal item such as Black Clever or Deaths Dance, did you notice something funny about all three of those items, each one gives tank stats or effective tankiness along with life steal. Death's Dance makes 15% of all in comming damage DOT, which is pretty damn nice for a squishy ADC, even though it's intended user's are Fighter's, Bloodthirster gives a shield, black clever gives HP and Armor Shred, making the ADC deal even more damage if they build it.

I'm sorry but, AP Carries don't exist, they can't do the same thing that an ADC can, they aren't tanki enough, they can't shred enough defenses and they don't deal as much damage as easily.

Honestly, if Crit and Lifesteal were reworked somehow, i think game balancing for ADC's and many champions that use those stats excessively would be much easier. In the two year's i'v played league the most unbalanced states i'v seen the game in were from ADC's being too strong, abusing other classes items, being to safe, being to tanky, they cause problems because the mechanic their built around is flawed.

You know Black Cleaver has absolutely no lifesteal attached, right?

Teridax682 votes

Static health may make mages more durable, but they still come nowhere close to tanks or fighters in terms of survivability. By contrast, if the marksman doesn't get bursted down, their life steal can allow them to heal from any lesser source of damage at no cost or down time. In addition to scaling into the highest damage in the game, marksmen thus end up also becoming de facto drain tanks, to a greater capacity than champions designed for that same function, like Swain, Vladimir or Warwick.

The thing is, this isn't good for marksmen either, because it's what's forcing mages and assassins to have burst that's either too high or too low on counterplay. Since the purpose of those classes is to take out the enemy back line, which includes the marksman, and that marksman can a) heal for hundreds of health every second, and b) deal hundreds of guaranteed damage a second to any target in range, if they can't burn through the ADC's ~3000 effective health within a couple of seconds, they will die and their work will be erased in the next few seconds that follow. Effectively, you end up needing to give these burst champions about 3000-4000 damage in a quick rotation that also allows them to either escape safely or operate from a safe distance, just so that they can have a chance of doing their job right. This feels fair to no one, least of all the marksman, but it's a necessary evil in an environment where their vulnerability to damage is so binary.

Taking this into account, the game would likely be in a much better state without life steal: marksmen are supposed to be naturally weak to burst and strong against DPS, and while the lack of life steal would give burst champions more leeway against them without needing ultra-reliable or overly strong damage, it would also not significantly hamper marksmen against other DPS champions, i.e. fighters and other marksmen: marksman vs. marksman fights would be a little less item-dependent, and fighters would still have trouble due to how they are naturally vulnerable to kiting. In fact, this would also be a good opportunity to take the burst out of of several Divers, such as Hecarim or Vi, as they wouldn't need it to hold up against the back line. Similarly, assassins and mages could afford to have more counterplay and unreliability injected into their own kits, as there are still quite a few outliers, e.g. Malzahar, Rengar, Syndra, etc. that aren't fun to play against, and/or have been bent out of shape after repeated balancing.

Eternal7912 votes

Marksmen still are weak to burst, even with their life still. And if you took out like still, a lot of marksmen would be pretty much completely defenseless against burst damage which would be really bad and make some marksmen no longer fun to play.

If a marksman ever gets to the point in a game where they aren't weak to burst, that's because you're team screwed up and fed them a ton while not getting any of their burst champions fed enough.

Teridax682 votes

I think you missed the point. Marksmen are weak to burst now because the burst of assassins and mages is balanced with their life steal in mind, and is supposed to be high enough to surpass it. However, the high, near-instant amount of burst required to achieve this is generally so high and so low on counterplay that it does not feel good to suffer it. Additionally, as you pointed out, it makes burst champions even more binary, because if they fall behind relative to the marksman they just can't do their job.

An analogy for this is that burst is like pressing down on the accelerator, and life steal is pressing down on the brakes: because they both go up against each other, they somewhat cancel each other out, but slamming down on both at the same time, as is the case now, is still detrimental overall.

Toning down both life steal and burst at the same time, or taking out life steal and adjusting burst accordingly, would leave the state of damage in the game in a place where marksmen could be just as weak to burst without being too weak, and where we wouldn't need any damage source to be excessive in order to be effective. A world without life steal is a world where tanks don't need major ambient damage to make themselves noticed, where mages can't be excused for deleting enemies from a safe distance with a single ability rotation, and where assassins don't have to auto-murder squishies just to stay relevant.

Eternal7911 votes

Okay, I see your point. However, I know I find it kind of annoying to come into a fight, get burst down but survive and have to retreat because I have no means of healing in order to stay and help my team. I honestly think the better solution to this whole problem would be to nerf life steal, rather than remove it.

Teridax682 votes

Having to retreat after taking a lot of damage is a problem almost every champion in any other class has to contend with already. If that is an issue that needs to be addressed, it would likely be better to do it through changes to the environment or the like, such as additional healing on plants or monster camps, rather than through class-exclusive resourceless self-healing.

Roelo8 votes

And what happens after lifesteal is removed? I don't think that adc's are viable anymore. Don't just complain about something without trying to find a solution.

Pierce The Veal5 votes

Solution is simple,

Make ranged champions heal LESS from lifesteal. Simple as that. Most melees can't even make use of the bullshit properties of lifesteal.

An Undead brat8 votes

So this way noone would build it and thus it would only be a worthless weight on user's computer memory? What a great solution!

EvanThomas4 votes

Aatrox Fiora MasterYi Nasus Olaf Riven Trundle Tryndamere XinZhao

A list of some melee champions that build lifesteal.

yesnobanana6 votes

Nasus does not build lifesteal, yes, he gets it from passive but never builds it.

EvanThomas2 votes

I've seen some Bloodthirster Nasuses before. Pretty rare, but not rare enough to be off-meta.

grug3 votes

the dota guys realised this ages ago and diminished lifesteal percentages for ranged heroes across the board, thought guinsoo and his cronies picked up on this when they first made this game lul.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Doesn't Dota also have a hero who can auto you from a screen away?

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AaaoNRfg,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-06-02T14:36:55.602+0000)

Doesn't Dota also have a hero who can auto you from a screen away?

Good old sniper with a longer range higher damage caitlyn ult on 6 second cooldown late game. yes its a thing. Dont take leagues balance state for granted.

Spicy Rice10 votes

Dota also has turn speeds, a hero who can have like 4-5 of himself running around all at once, a hero with like 9 spells, etc etc.

These aren't the same games, and comparing the balance of one to the other is like complaining there aren't enough swords in a sci-fi game, or saying there aren't enough blasters in a fantasy game

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