This means if she has an Infinity Edge and is level 9, she can AoE crit from 700 range dealing 260% of her AD in damage every 1 second. Shouldn't they do reduced damage since she can AoE crit pretty much 50 times in a teamfight late game?
RiotRiotRepertoir27 votesThey do increased damage because they are intended to be high impact per hit, but low attack rate. If anything, we should probably make the low attack rate part truer.
JustMyBassCannon7 votesIt's already true, really. The only way Fishbones can fire at a rate that produces DPS instead of a random burst of damage is if she buys a lot of attack speed, which in turn scales very poorly with Pow-Pow.
She's one of six Marksmen--Corki, Graves, Kindred, Sivir and Tristana--who do not naturally reach 1.0 AS with their growth AS; of them all, her innate attack speed is the worst without her steroid, and everyone else either has easier access to their steroid or they have other tools to keep them relevant in their respective roles.
Not saying that she's weak by any means, that would be a blind and foolish thing to say. Rather that she is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to attack speed specifically. She's in the bottom 5, bumping shoulders with champs that don't need attack speed in the first place like Bard, Darius, Annie and Nautilus.
Kitten of Evil5 votesI dunno, Bard has those high-impact per hit autos!
Billy VoHagen1 votesNerd bard.
Remlap12231 votesHow on earth are you going to do that? Are you going to throw her AS scaling down to 0.5% per level like Gnar? Or is she going to get the lowest base AS in the game?
I really don't know any other way to lower the attack rate of her rockets without making her extremely clunky to play. Because if those start flying at the rate of Soraka bananas, you're going to have an entirely different problem on your hands.
Zair Umbras1 votesWell, she only gets 1% per level to compensate for it all, so it's hard to say. If she was reduced in base, she would be pretty boned. In comparison to other ADC's, her total AS with the normal items is 140% with minigun, plus 17% from levels, and 50% from Phantom or 40% from Shiv, so she's at 197-207%. Other ADC's, we'll go with Ezreal as a funny comparison given the fact he Q's more than AA's. He's got the same base of .625 and has 47.6% scaling and 50% max with his passive and if he builds a PD or Shiv (Hasn't gone Shiv since they made Shiv not crit unless the AA crits, but we'll say he doooooooes for the lulz) he'll have 137.6-147.6%. In actuality, this is actually 1.485-1.55ish. Jinx's AS would be 1.856-1.92ish. At max with the PD, that's .37 attacks per second from minigun Jinx compared to Ezreal who... doesn't really build these items, but why the hell not use them for random comparison of BS? lol. Wiiiiiithout the minigun, Jinx's AS is only a bonus of 57-67%, so that's .98-1.04 attacks per second. The difference between the minigun and rockets is 1 attack per 2s. DPS-wise, the minigun will do nearly double after max stacks since her attack speed is nearly halved without minigun, buuuuuut logically, if you got about 300 AD, you're critting 750 with minigun and 825 with rockets (330x2.5 since rockets do 110% of your AD rather than just the 100%. Kalista's AA's work the same in which her AA's do 90% and crit for 180% pre-IE and post-IE for 225%, just like Yasuo's crits!). As most will understand, it's a lot easier to orb walk with less AS and typically around 1.5 attacks per sec, it's almost impossible to orb walk and get off the max attacks per sec with near 2 attacks per sec since you'd have to stop to AA every half sec. That level of stutter step would be insane and I've personally never seen it ever, so Rockets are just better later on in a team fight. You'll do AoE, do more per hit, and you'll be able to maximize DPS.
Honestly, the last stack of the minigun after max level and a PD is just for objectives since you're not going to orb walk or stutter step quick when you gotta stop every half a second to attack.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesThey could give her an AS% penalty when using Rockets, like a -50% AS penalty.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesShe already loses her 30-130% AS steroid.
RogueWill1 votesThe attack rate is slow but not really that impactful. I don't mind her attacks do so much damage but when my Tristana only can get an extra 2 attacks every 10 aa we have a problem.
IllllllIIIIlllll14 votesbecause she has the lowest base attack speed and attack speed scaling out of any adc. powpow removes the problem of attack speed by giving a huge attack speed steroid, but at level 18, she effectively has 40% less attackspeed in fishbones compared to other adcs.
Hayaishi210 votesbecause she has the lowest base attack speed and attack speed scaling out of any adc. powpow removes the problem of attack speed by giving a huge attack speed steroid, but at level 18, she effectively has 40% less attackspeed in fishbones compared to other adcs.
And fishbones damage makes up for it anyways, no point in having a weakness she completely mitigates.
Abyssphere3 votesAnd fishbones damage makes up for it anyways, no point in having a weakness she completely mitigates.
You just replied to "Fishbones does more damage because it's so slow" with "Fishbones does lots of damage which makes up for it being slow". You're telling him what he just told you.
Hayaishi21 votesYou just replied to "Fishbones does more damage because it's so slow" with "Fishbones does lots of damage which makes up for it being slow". You're telling him what he just told you.
I didn't say it does more damage because it's slow. I said that even though it's slow the damage is high enough to make the low attack speed irrelevant.
In theory it looks like it'll be a weakness, but in practice it rarely matters. The only weakness Jinx has at the moment is being immobile, and she even has answers for that with her passive, though it does not mitigates it.
IcyPepper1 votesI don't think it counts as a weakness, tho.
The low attack speed is to prevent rocket spam. It's still an ability, it costs a little bit of mana, it's high impact. But the low attack speed isn't a weakness, it's just to gate rockets early (because can you imagine it at normal attack speed growth?).
I'm... confused. I don't understand your argument here. Of course the damage is high enough to make up for the lack of attack speed, that's the point of the ability (and why it costs mana, it would be ridiculously OP if it didn't for one). Why would anyone use pure damage abilities if it lowered their dps at the cost of mana?
Imo, the lower attack speed isn't a weakness, no more of a weakness than Caitlyn using Q to hit someone outside her aa range. Not all abilities are supposed to make someone more vulnerable. It's just a gate from completely breaking a champion, which is part of the reason Jinx relies on minigun for actual attack speed.
Whether or not Jinx is overtuned (let's be real, she is) isn't the issue, but the design intention. And honestly, I think it's fine. They should have hit her base AS instead of her Q's scaling, hit her rockets if they're going to buff minigun in the late-game. The intentions are well and the design idea is a good one, it's just not tuned enough.
Hayaishi21 votesI don't think it counts as a weakness, tho.
The low attack speed is to prevent rocket spam. It's still an ability, it costs a little bit of mana, it's high impact. But the low attack speed isn't a weakness, it's just to gate rockets early (because can you imagine it at normal attack speed growth?).
I'm... confused. I don't understand your argument here. Of course the damage is high enough to make up for the lack of attack speed, that's the point of the ability (and why it costs mana, it would be ridiculously OP if it didn't for one). Why would anyone use pure damage abilities if it lowered their dps at the cost of mana?
Imo, the lower attack speed isn't a weakness, no more of a weakness than Caitlyn using Q to hit someone outside her aa range. Not all abilities are supposed to make someone more vulnerable. It's just a gate from completely breaking a champion, which is part of the reason Jinx relies on minigun for actual attack speed.
Whether or not Jinx is overtuned (let's be real, she is) isn't the issue, but the design intention. And honestly, I think it's fine. They should have hit her base AS instead of her Q's scaling, hit her rockets if they're going to buff minigun in the late-game. The intentions are well and the design idea is a good one, it's just not tuned enough.
My argument is that many people try to justify Fishbones' ridiculous AOE 110% scaling AAs with 700 range, that crit on top of doing more damage than normal AAs and being AOE with "She has low attack speed while using it"
The ability is too good for it's cost, overtuned as you said and it clearly deserves to be nerfed. And some BS excuse like the low AS one doesn't change that fact. Actually, if the low AS was never mean to be a weakness, the fact that no one in the balance team ever thought that giving something so many strengths without even thinking it needed a weakness to balance it out says a lot about the balance team.
It's the same as when people say "Lee Sin falls off late game" which he does but he still has tools to ignore that weakness, only difference is that Lee's approach to mitigate his weakness takes skill while Jinx's is because her kit is loaded with so much stuff that she can't possibly mess up.
That's the entire point of the "no weakness" argument, which would be better said as "Too many strengths, non-existent weaknesses"
It's the same argument that is brought in some game boards that says "If a spells takes 20 secs to cast but one shots everything, is it balanced?" Of course Jinx's is an much smaller scale but the concept still applies. Because that's exactly how it feels to play against Jinx, can you consistently deny her in teamfights? pretty well you're good to go. You can't? Enjoy listening to the "Enemy Pentakill!" announcement every teamfight.
So we either give Jinx weaknesses like every balanced champion has or we reduce her strengths.
IcyPepper1 votesI think she could be fine if only the target of her autoattacks crit, and the splash damage did not.
If that gutted her completely, I wouldn't mind compensation, but I think that would be a fair and interesting change. I mean, they had no qualms about taking a bat to Kassadin's identity, so I don't see why they couldn't fix up Jinx a little.
yay nibbers1 votesNot to mention Shiv and PD are still a thing
Professor Ward2 votesbecause she has the lowest base attack speed and attack speed scaling out of any adc. powpow removes the problem of attack speed by giving a huge attack speed steroid, but at level 18, she effectively has 40% less attackspeed in fishbones compared to other adcs.
You should never be using jinx rockets without first stacking attack speed from pew pew, i love when peeps try to use jinx range/attack speed as a point of balance, she is above class in both.
N0rth Wind8 votesActually the bonus damage is factored in her criticals so the 10% turns into 25% with IE. So it's actualy 275%, not 260%.
Mister Mackey3 votesSo with crit dmg runes youre looking at 305% crit damage? Seems amazing
Billy VoHagen1 votesDamn, a whole 7 people get 305% fruit damage ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
IcyPepper1 votesI don't think people run crit dmg runes on ADC's.
While on paper it seems awesome, but the early game man. The early game.
Solash4 votesRockets tend to do more damage than bullets.
Lady Hammerlock4 votesa few reasons here -her rocket animation is shitty -next to impossible to kite effectively with rockets if not excited -low base attack speed and low attack speed per lvl(compared to other adcs) -trades single target power for aoe melting(basically reverse vayne) -her attack speed steroid does take some time to ramp up -assasins will give her a bad day -its funny how if she falls behind she isn't all that great since -rockets won't matter if they aren't dealing any dmg -no point in attack speed steroid if her own attacks don't deal any dmg -W does no dmg without some point into it+some dmg -rockets won't deal much to(ult rocket)
DarthSpectrum3 votesI believe Jinx has the slowest AS of all ADCs late game.
Yeah the rockets from Fish Bones hit like a truck, but she trades a significant amount of her single target DPS for AOE damage. To put it in perspective, Vayne, Kog, and Draven for example can all out damage Jinx late game even when she is in pow-pow mode. She inherently have lower single target damage compared to other champions in exchange for the ability to AA multiple targets at once.
Just like you can argue that Jinx can AOE crit half of the enemy team in a team fight, someone else can argue about how Draven can deal 1.5 k + damage per ax and how Vayne can chew through a tank regardless of resistance stats.
Lugg2 votesshe trades a significant amount of her single target DPS for AOE damage.
Uh no, she doesn't. Her rockets do WAAAAAAAAAAAY more DPS since they hit multiple people.
Vayne, Kog, and Draven do great SINGLE TARGET damage. (Which Jinx does as well with her mini gun)
YumaS2Astral2 votesUh no, she doesn't. Her rockets do WAAAAAAAAAAAY more DPS since they hit multiple people.
Vayne, Kog, and Draven do great SINGLE TARGET damage. (Which Jinx does as well with her mini gun)
Jinx does not do nearly as much single target damage as Vayne, Kog, and Draven. All she has is her attack speed steroid, which is not sufficient, as Jinx lacks other steroids outside of Fishbones.
The Bíg Ticket2 votesExcept she has max attack speed with only PD and Berserker's Greaves. Her single target dps CAN be higher than Vayne's, Draven's or Kog Maw's since her attack speed is much higher and her Aoe DPS is incomparable to any other adc. Broken champ.
DarthSpectrum3 votesYou underestimate how much damage Draven, Kog, and Vayne can dish out.
Vayne gets around 65 AD when she ults, she has her infamous % maximum health true damage with a high base component, and she has her AA reset and steroid on Q. On top of that, Jinx gets 17% AS growth at level 18, while Vayne has 4 times that amount at 68 percent.
Jinx literally needs to AA twice just to match Vayne's base AS, exclusion the fact that Vayne does over 25% damage more per auto due to her steroids.
To put Kog and Draven in perspective, a Draven that manages to consistently throw 2 axes will have almost twice the DPS of Vayne, and a Kog can in fact out DPS Vayne as well due to his % health shred.
Jinx does outclass them in AOE damage if she hits at least 3 targets with her rockets, but otherwise they will be able to output higher overall DPS despite the fact that Jinx can do AOE damage.
Jinx's rockets are not so strong because they have high DPS. Their strengths are that they have extremely high range and can put out reliable damage unlike the other hyper carries.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesJinx crits 2 people for 1500 each....how do Vayne, Draven or Kog Maw outdps that?
DarthSpectrum1 votesCalculations?
It is impossible for Jinx to crit for 1500 on a rocket even if she builds 1 IE and 5 BTs factoring full AD runes and mastery page against a target with the lowest amount of base armor.
At BEST, she can crit for around 700. Draven on the other hand can consistently put out 1.2k per ax, while Vayne can AA her targets with 25% more damage and almost 2x the speed than Jinx can with her rockets. The same applies to Kog.
Like I mentioned before, you overestimate Jinx's damage way too much.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesROfl what? 700? How about you watch the FNC vs AHQ game...An crit Rekkles for 1300 there...this was without 5th dragon buff and not full AD build. 1500 is easily possible. Draven can crit you for over 2000.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesyour forgetting how bad the animation is on her rockets combine that with low attack speed and probably requiring a defensive item late game that doesn't give attack speed kiting with rockets can be a challenge without getting excited
Lugg1 votesThe thing is, she doesn't need to kte. She does so much damage that you are dead before you get to her.
Lady Hammerlock1 votes"she doesn't need to kite"
ok i won't even try to remotely kite a 
because they totally don't build tank and also can deal dmg
Lugg1 votesJinx can do the step back, fire, step back fire kiting like most ADCs but with her flame chompers she can cut off most champs advancing on her.
If you don't have someone to peel for you in a teamfight, you're probably going to die anyway.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesassasins will just jump right through not to mention the ever annoying
that i forgot to mention....
Lugg1 votesWhich applies to EVERY ADC. Try again.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesexcept basically ITS APPLIED TO IMMOBILE ADCS since they have a harder time getting away i mean i have seen a vayne 1 vs 1 a zed or kill him in a team fight or graves who also has mobility and kill an assasin(possibly deal tons of dmg to the enemy team while doing so)with his skills+auto's
the only assassin i can think of that basically inserts there middle finger up every adc's asshole is 
regardless if they are mobile or not
Lugg1 votesWell no other ADC has the self peel Vayne has. She has her tumble, impale, and ult. So she is kind of the exception.
It totally agree with you on Talon though.
Lady Hammerlock1 votessince we have succesfully come into an agreement there will be no more discussing cuz im bored of this post lol
Akali is SO HOT1 votes[deleted]
Lugg1 votesToo bad this is my smurf account, try again.
Abyssphere2 votesUh no, she doesn't. Her rockets do WAAAAAAAAAAAY more DPS since they hit multiple people.
Vayne, Kog, and Draven do great SINGLE TARGET damage. (Which Jinx does as well with her mini gun)
"Her rockets do WAAAAAAAAAAAY more DPS since they hit multiple people."
What part of "single-target DPS" do you not understand? Of course she does more overall damage if she uses her rockets - AOE always does more than single-target.
DeloricVI2 votesIt's a balance thing. You sacrifice a lot of single target damage when you switch from minigun to rockets. While, yes, the AoE crits are pretty rough, think of how many times she can crit one target with her minigun. I don't know the exact numbers, but the attack speed steroid she gets form her minigun way outclasses the damage buff on her rockets, so each has its use.
Also, if this is a way to passively-aggressively complain about Jinx instead of asking for a reason why something is the way it is, then it is also balanced in game play. Don't want Jinx to crit everyone on your team? Spread out, don't stand where she can AoE crit all of you at once. Problem solved.
ImNLuvWitATeemo2 votesYou can tell most of the people in this thread have never played Jinx and are basing their whining on a specific LCS game
Restless Slumber1 votesShe's also one of the easiest to assassinate adc in the game. Even though your damage is strong she is very weak in skirmishes compared to adcs with mobility.
Professor Ward2 votesShe's also one of the easiest to assassinate adc in the game. Even though your damage is strong she is very weak in skirmishes compared to adcs with mobility.
must be the reasons she gets so many pentas in competitive play
