I am the only one who starts The Dark Seal on manaless AP champions?

YumaS2Astral·Oct 31, 2016·2 votes·1,518 views

Many people complain about how there is no starting AP item for manaless AP champions (there is for those who use mana)

I actually start on champions like . Despite having mana, this item allows me to start with 3 potions instead of the only one potion that I would take if I were to start Doran's Shield/Blade. Those potions also get their healing increased by this item's passive. If I manage to get a kill, this item only lets me have more AP. However, I don't upgrade this item to since it is not worth 99% of time. Instead I just sell it at late game when I need the slot. In the case of Vladimir, because of this item's passive, he essentially gains HP from it (therefore compensating for this item lacking HP as one of its stats).

I am the only one to do that?

22 Comments

Snowball4uOct 31, 20161 votes

Vladimir + item 1054 = [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] Kennen + item 1055 =[slayer-jinx-wink] Akali + = [zombie-nunu-hearts]

MXXXXXLOct 31, 20161 votes

Vladimir + item 1004 [slayer-pantheon-rainbows] Kennen +[slayer-jinx-catface] Akali +[zombie-brand-clap]

Snowball4uNov 1, 20161 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

[slayer-jinx-catface]

TyrekGoldenspearOct 31, 20161 votes

Gotta get those stacks.

MXXXXXLOct 31, 20161 votes

item 3041 is gold efficient at 7 stacks.

Also, why ever get health potions on Vladimir ? He's sustain is already really good, iv'e never gotten them on

Sightless66Oct 31, 20162 votes

Having good sustain is even more of a reason to get health potions. It allows you to leverage your sustain to actually harass and bully an enemy out with equal trades, instead of just passively sustaining a lane because you can't recover from a fight as well as the guy with potions can. It also guarantees that if you lose a trade, you'll be able to get enough health back that the enemy won't just kill you the next time you try to Q something.

MXXXXXLOct 31, 20161 votes

Vladimir has way more then enough sustain to heal before the next trade.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20161 votes

Not if he does poorly on a trade, which is likely because he does less damage in a straight trade than his opponents. Then, they just stand between him and the minions and kill him if he tries to get a q off.

Additionally, if he won or went even in a trade, then not having hp pots means he will regen slower than his pot carrying enemy, removing a ton of his ability to turn a short term health advantage into a cs or exp advantage.

You can work without pots, but you give up pressure on your enemy if things go well, and you open yourself up to being zoned if things go poorly.

Every champion wants pots early. There are literally no exceptions.

MXXXXXLOct 31, 20161 votes

Iv'e never had any issues with sustaining back to full HP and i have level 6 on Vladimir, not even if after a trade i have half health and my opponent has more then 3 quarters, i easily gain all my health back, which is why i dislike Vladimir.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20162 votes

Then people aren't punishing you anywhere near hard enough. At higher level play, if the enemy Vlad is at half health (which is still better than you could be doing) and you're at 3/4 health, then you stand between him and the minions and you kill him if he tries to heal. You're guaranteed to zone him.

Every single champion needs pots early. No exceptions.

WoonStruckNov 1, 20161 votes

To be fair though, you can use Krugs/Gromp to grab empowered Q more often than not. Or wait until they go to CS to sneak a Q in.

If they're missing CS to deny you CS, its kinda worth.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20161 votes

Yeah, it's not like it's a completely unwinnable situation when you're getting zoned. There are ways to play around it. Of course, it's still always worth doing what you can to avoid being put in that situation in the first place.

To be fair though, you can use Krugs/Gromp to grab empowered Q more often than not. Or wait until they go to CS to sneak a Q in.

I agree, and that should be done whenever possible. With that said, it's not always an option, and even when it is it still is usually only going to mitigate an already bad situation instead of putting you back into a good one. Better to take the option that lets you completely get out of bad situations or better press the advantage in winning ones.

If they're missing CS to deny you CS, its kinda worth.

I generally find that you're going to be missing more than the opponent unless they're incompetent. Of course, incompetence isn't exactly uncommon, so that can happen. It still usually ends up being a bit shy of worth though.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

You're heavily exaggerating.

It takes ~6 minutes to hit level 6. Take out 2 for minion spawn+travel time to lane.

That's 4 minutes for you to be casting Q. We'll be generous to your cause and average Q's CD. 8 seconds. That means you can cast it up to 30 times in that 4 minutes.

If you're not a pleb and you Q krug/gromp on your way up for the first stack, that means 15 crimson rushes.

The base heal nets you ~3.1 HP/second. Crimson rush provides another ~3.1 HP/second if every one is used against a champion. 1.1 HP/second if used on minions. 2.1 average, which is extremely generous.

With these values, assuming you aren't playing against a complete idiot thus automatically winning lane regardless, You only get 5.2 HP/second.

5.2 HP/second is not enough for someone to make it through laning unless there's absolutely no pressure, otherwise 3 item 1006 +1 pot would be the meta start on every melee champion in the game.

MXXXXXLOct 31, 20161 votes

It IS bronze ELO, every lane is a free win, i'm just bad.

CatastropNov 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you're not a pleb and you Q krug/gromp on your way up for the first stack, that means 15 crimson rushes.

Proud pleb here, thank you for the unintentional advice, been trying to pick up Vlad but I suck so hard.

WoonStruckNov 1, 20161 votes

The secret to being good at Vlad is focusing on CS and staying out of their windows of engage.

That, and knowing to go E level 2 if you're getting pushed in, and W lvl 2 if you're pushing out.

And building full AP instead of this nonsense tank crap when he has a 100% AP ratio on his E now, and an effective 82.5% ratio on his Q. Both of which end up on a 3 second or 2.75 second CD, depending on masteries. 35% ratio on his heal on top of that, which means you're healing like old Vlad with WotA on top of having CR heals.

And running Stormraider's Surge.

And universally running Ghost+Flash.

And having 10% CDR in your rune page.

** Tank build is why his winrate looks so bad right now, and its getting gutted further heading into Season 7. 3 aspects of it are getting nerfed heavily. **

CatastropNov 1, 20161 votes

Oh wow, thanks for the advice. I already run Ghost+Flash and with SotA getting scrapped was planning on going either DFT or Stormraider's in my Vlad builds. So pretty much just ignore SV and go straight damage then? Or would I just be delaying SV for a bit later into the game?

WoonStruckNov 1, 20161 votes

DFT really isn't worth it unless you're fighting 4 tanks and an ADC. Even then it can be worth it to run SRS instead so you can run past them and murder the ADC, or kite back easily.

Don't ALWAYS ignore SV. SV is a great buy if you need the sustain to function in the match-up. An example would be pretty much any AP mid. However, if they don't have extremely long range AoE poke or aren't pressuring you, you're better off with Abyssal because it spikes your damage very, very hard, and only gets better as the game goes on with his other itemization.

If you're against all AD, SV can also be good if someone else on your team already plans on buying Abyssal. However, it is not a go-to rush anymore.

SV is back to a situational item on Vlad. You can't build it early because you end up with no damage then, and that's all Vlad has to offer. You can't build it mid-game because you need Zhonya's+Rylai's, then likely Void staff. Late game it won't be enough to change anything, so you're probably better off grabbing Deathcap and Void if you didn't grab it earlier.

It can be a good buy, but it has to REALLY be worth giving up the damage that Abyssal offers. Especially since Abyssal+Void is going to stack SO much better next season.

Same with Protobelt. It is not going to be a damage item next season. It'll be extremely situational.

item 3001 item 3157 item 3116 item 3135 item 3089 item 1001

is going to be your normal end-game build, unless the enemy comp calls for something different for whatever reason. Build them in whatever function is highest in demand.

If you get fed early, going for an early large rod lets you 2v1 if a jungler decides to pressure; also denies any damage shut-down due to cowl+D-shield. The early Rylai's from that helps even more.

Otherwise, Ionian+Codex is your go-to first buy.

Start boots+4 pots in the large majority of match-ups.

CatastropNov 1, 20161 votes

Thanks so much, this was very helpful.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

Boots+4pots is the go-to start on Vlad.

Only players who expect to lose start D-shield.

The thing is, Boots+4 pots is better in every way. Its superior to D-shield in every sense: Good match-ups, bad match-ups, and 50-50 match-ups.

The only reason to take D-shield on Vlad is Xin, Irelia, or TLD+Ignite Riven, and that's solely to mitigate their all-in potential. Even in that case, boots+4 pots will usually get you further if you aren't bad.

YumaS2AstralOct 31, 20161 votes

I take movement speed quintessences on Vladimir. This reduces the need to start with boots on him. I can then go with different starts, like the aforementioned The Dark Seal.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

Boots isn't wasted gold, and having +40 MS is much better than having just 15.

With Dark Seal, you're throwing away 500 gold.

With boots 4 pots, you're only throwing away 200. And CSing better. And harassing better. And trading better. And dropping minion aggro better. And getting out of ganks better. And assisting ganks better. And assisting against invades better.