Why are they okay to have in the game? Why aren't they okay to have in the game? What downsides do resourceless champions have as opposed to champions who use resources? I want to have interesting discussion and hear what both sides have to say. This is a neutral thread, It's not a riven,katarina,garen, or energy champion love/hate thread or anything like that. So let's discuss this shall we? :)
Rebonack4 votesAs far as I'm concerned, Garen and possibly Shyvana are the only well designed non-mana champions.
Everyone else is a clusterfuck of awful design choices that are terrible to play against if they're the least bit over-tuned.
Champions with no resource or non-finite resources should not have:
Because all three of those allow you to get something for nothing. When they're weak, they feel useless. When they're strong, they feel extremely unfair. While Garen does have a heal in his kit, it has a cost associated with it. He needs to lurk in shrubs for a while to get it to kick in, losing out on harass and CS.
TehNACHO1 votesOh, yeah, there was another thread just like this.
By concept, different resources have different effects on champions.
Mana for example is a resource amazing at doing a shitton of things at once, sometimes in a continuous stream. Burst mages for example are the prime definition of this as they can often throw at least some spell at a solid pace for long periods of time before dropping their entire kit on the enemy's head. It also provides early game gating and late game freedom, as early game you may have to consistently worry about your mana, but by the later stages of the game you quite frankly do not care about it anymore.
Energy is a resource that, if you are careful about, acts essentially resourceless. You can not fire large amounts of your kit consecutively like a mana user can, but you can drop an entire rotation of spells on the enemy's head after pacing your abilities in a way that your fast energy regen kicks in over time. Energy lacks the ability to build out of this restriction however, so if an energy based kit is designed to max out on energy with only 2 rotations of the champ's spells, you're not going to ever get around it no matter how you build.
Cooldowns, finally, have two significant weaknesses depending on how the champion is built. If it's a champion like Garen who is restricted by longass cooldowns, or on the opposite end of the spectrum Katarina with weak ass spells, resourceless champs are often balanced around the fact that they perform subpar to energy and mana in very specific matchups. Katarina for example is straight up weaker than Talon in many raw damage scenarios if you consider that her ult is easily interrupted and Talon can rely on multiple auto attacks with far more power than the former.
The reason why resourceless champions exist is to put a different spin on a kit than energy or mana could allow. Yasuo's design quite frankly is impossible with mana or energy because his Qs are essentially auto attacks and as his main combat skill damn near mandatory towards his damage potential. Wind Wall was designed as a reactive skill and therefore giving mana or energy is nothing more than a damning limit to using the ability in emergency situations. And don't even get started on trying to make his E function off a resource.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesTalon however has a rough early game as far as mana goes against katarina.. plus the fact that she has a damage reduction on her shunpo and can shunpo via ward hopping as well as friendly units.. Raw damage scenarios she isnt really out damaged by talon either.. also talon has no way of interupting katarinas ulti and must kill her or run from her. Talon: Q: 150+30%bonus AD after six seconds of bleed damage they take a total of 200+%130 bonus AD W: 260+%120 percent bonus AD E: Damage amp 15 percent. A no item rotation of talon q,w,e = 529 items would add %287.5 bonus AD Katarina: Q:160 + %45ap without mark and 235 + %60 ap with mark W: 180+ %25 ap E: 160+ %25 ap A no item rotation for katarina is 575+ items would add %160 ap.. Let's also keep in mind however that katarina is free to spam her abilities.. and on lower cooldowns for the most part. So talon beats her in scaling.. maybe.. Ap also has a much higher thresh hold than ad + kat has higher base damage.
SirShields1 votesAdding in on this
When was the last time you ever saw an ad champ getting close to 1000 AD? It's common for any ap champ (at least when I play them) to get around 800-900+ap while all my AD assassin guys max out around 400-500 haha....
Moar buffs to ad [slayer-jinx-wink]
Aeolian Melodies1 votesAdding in on this
When was the last time you ever saw an ad champ getting close to 1000 AD? It's common for any ap champ (at least when I play them) to get around 800-900+ap while all my AD assassin guys max out around 400-500 haha....
Moar buffs to ad [slayer-jinx-wink]
Because AD is more expensive and more valuable due to the fact that it increases your auto attack's strength too, and auto attacks have multipliers (crit %, crit dmg, AS).
TehNACHO1 votesYou...do realize Assassins get more power out of Flat Penetration than they do raw AD right?
Stacking just AP is only good for Wave Clearing 0 MR Minions.
TehNACHO1 votesOr we could use statistics to show that, on average, Talon does more damage anyway.
Katarina Damage: 21923 Talon Damage: 22445
Yosuke Apperu1 votesOr we could use statistics to show that, on average, Talon does more damage anyway.
Katarina Damage: 21923 Talon Damage: 22445
She still does more damage without items tho..giving her a better early game.. which is something that I'm not entirely sure if statistics show or not. Edit: Also these aren't the only two champions in the game.. Let's take riven for example(I know I'm going to get flamed) The highest all in ad scaling in the game..
TehNACHO1 votesBetter early game could generally be denied given that Talon maintains more gold than Kat after the 3 minute mark for the rest of the game.
So other than some First Blood cheese, it looks like Talon has the better early game anyway.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesBetter early game could generally be denied given that Talon maintains more gold than Kat after the 3 minute mark for the rest of the game.
So other than some First Blood cheese, it looks like Talon has the better early game anyway.
Provided he can manage his mana well enough while kat gets free poke from a longer range.. It is mostly a skill match up, but I feel as though katarina being manaless gives her the edge. In the past I've beaten Katarina as talon, and I've beaten talon as katarina. But talon's early harass battles usually suffer pretty bad from his mana cost.
TehNACHO1 votesDude this isn't a debate. Statistics prove virtually every step of the way that Talon outperforms Katarina in all but First Blood cheese and kills; the latter stacked being entirely on her power budget draining passive. Outside of those two hyper specific areas, Talon is empirically better. No amount of your anecdotes will disprove this.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesDude this isn't a debate. Statistics prove virtually every step of the way that Talon outperforms Katarina in all but First Blood cheese and kills; the latter stacked being entirely on her power budget draining passive. Outside of those two hyper specific areas, Talon is empirically better. No amount of your anecdotes will disprove this.
It is a debate, I'm using hard numbers and so are you. According to your statistics though it is a skill match up :3 Which means that talon isn't entirely better than katarina, nor is katarina entirely better than talon :P.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesThe downside is that many masteries runes and items are not fully synergized with a resource less champ. The upside is less back tracking for mana. Even the resource less champs you might think are similar but interestingly enough there is AMAZINGLY WIDE diversity among the resource less champs.
Yosuke Apperu1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AZYuGAtt,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-10T07:46:54.644+0000)
The downside is that many masteries runes and items are not fully synergized with a resource less champ. The upside is less back tracking for mana. Even the resource less champs you might think are similar but interestingly enough there is AMAZINGLY WIDE diversity among the resource less champs.
That's not really a down side though.. The restore 5% health and mana on kills/assists? They dont need the mana anyways . Also no champ is forced to take mana regen runes.. Resourceless champions all share the same problem of freely being able to spam.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesRight, but think about items like lich bane rod of ages archangel staff manamune chalice frozen heart - pretty much anything that builds out of sapphire gem and faerie charm. Those items all charge gold for the mana and having to put one of them in your build takes gold away from something else that would have benefitted you. Just like with the masteries. Before when it was a tree it was a tiny bit more flexible so you could avoid mana based masteries. Now you get 2 options 18/12 or 18/6/6. There's no other way around it because of how important the keystones are. As you gain levels your abilities cost more energy health mana etc. But an energy based champ has a definite pool of energy to work with from beginning to end. So while you can spam your spells faster longer and stronger as a mana user simply by buying a chalice an energy user is actually growing slower shorter and weaker over the course of the game. That being said riot has done pretty well in trying to balance the snowball effect. That's why pure mana champs don't just launch into space at the third early game kill and energy champs among other resource less champs do.
Tyrone Lannister1 votesI feel they keep control mages in check. No ones another ziggs hell meta
Yosuke Apperu1 votes[{quoted}](name=Tyrone Lannister,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AZYuGAtt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-10T17:17:36.141+0000)
I feel they keep control mages in check. No ones another ziggs hell meta
I don't feel like I'd want to pick katarina into a ziggs though.. lol Is that one of his counters?
Tyrone Lannister1 votesYasuo deals with him pretty well