Can Other Lanes Get Scaling?

Rainfall·Oct 11, 2017·46 votes·2,066 views

We get it riot,you love the botlane,both supports and adcs have hyperscaling from broken items,but can the rest of the lanes get some attention? Mid: what is this item? i do buy zhonyas but im not made of gold riot it costs way too much to be affordable in the average game. both need some changes as well. Top:building tank items feels like you're digging your own grave,dont get me wrong is a super strong item,but all of these are garbage. Now i know that someone will jump in the thread to say "WTF YOU WANT TANK ITEM BUFFS,CHO GATH JUST DEALT 5000 TRUE DAMAGE TO ME. Just remember that 1-2 champion's balance should not hold all defensive items and the champions who buy them behind.

48 Comments

TortungaOct 11, 201724 votes

It's not just scaling, ADC items in general provide much better value then items from other roles, especially AP ones;

item 3031 = 96% efficient, item 3089 = 68% efficient, while both passives provide roughly the same value in the late game

item 3135 vs item 3033 / item 3036 . All three have roughly the same stat gold efficiency (66% for void, 67% for the ADC ones) and all three providing 35% penetration, both ADC ones got a second passive on their items for some reason. And ADC can buy a smaller version of their penetration item with just the 35% penetration, while mages cannot.

item 3285 vs item 3087 item 3094 . All three have somewhat the same gold efficiency without the passive (80-85%), but Shiv's/rapid cannon passive are much stronger then Luden's. You would need 2200 AP for the luden's passive to do the same damage as a Shiv's passive crit.

No wonder ADC's are taking over every lane in game... (and this is even ignoring Ardent Censer).

EedatOct 11, 201710 votes

But Deathcap is 93% gold efficient and Void is WAAAAAYYYYY better than LW items. Void penetrates total MR. LW items penetrate bonus armor

TortungaOct 11, 20178 votes

I didn't knew that about LW items, thought they both provided the same penetration.

But Deathcap is only 68% efficient from just the stats; 2610 worth of AP for 3800g. If you include the extra AP you get from the passive over the 120 base stats, then yeah you get 93% efficiency, but that wouldn't be fair, as you don't calculate IE's critical strike multiplier value over the 20% crit change the item gives.

And just a calculation I used to come to the conclusion that IE is just so much better then Deathcap for it's money, as both passives provide roughly the same value;

IE with 80% crit change (IE + 2 completed Zeal items) = 20% damage boost on your AA hits on average.

Deathcap with 600 AP pre deathcap bonus (810 AP with bonus), calculated using an ability with 250 base damage and 0.7 scaling (Good representation of the average mage ability, on an average mage on full build)

(250+81007) / (250+6000.7) = 20.8% damage increase.

In the late game both item's passive gives roughly the same strength, but IE has 525 more gold worth of stats on it then Deathcap, and even costs 400g less then deathcap.

EedatOct 11, 20174 votes

Deathcap provides 162 AP by iteself (120 * 1.35) because its passive stacks on itself. Thats without actoring in any other source of AP

TortungaOct 11, 20173 votes

And so does IE. It's passive provides 5% AA damage over the 20% crit it gives (20% crit change*25% extra crit damage), but as that is hard to translate in gold value, I kept both passives seperate from the rest of the stats.

And as you can see in the calculation I have provided, in a late game situation, both passives give roughly the same damage bonus on AA or abilities respectively.

EedatOct 11, 20173 votes

I just did the math in another response, but 70 AD at 20% crit chance with a 250% modifier averages out to 91. But as you said, kinda hard to equate a gold value because its not quite the same as a real 21 extra AD

nice tableOct 11, 20171 votes

rabadons gives 120 ap without the passive making it have the gold value of 2610 which means it is 69% gold efficient.

EedatOct 11, 20172 votes

But the passive stacks on itself which means Rabadons gives 162 AP (120 * 1.35) just by itself on purchase. Thats without factoring in AP from any other source other than itself

ParoeOct 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

But the passive stacks on itself which means Rabadons gives 162 AP (120 * 1.35) just by itself on purchase. Thats without factoring in AP from any other source other than itself

That doesnt matter though? IE stacks with itself too.

IE also scales MUCH better. 2.5 total AD scaling point and click nukes with a 0.5 second cooldown?

EedatOct 11, 20172 votes

Sure, IE stacks on itself. We can do the math. 70 AD with a 20% crit chance (250% modfier) averages out to 91. Albeit a bit different as that "bonus AD" (using that term very loosely) will not apply to any AD ratios

pwn2dOct 11, 20171 votes

IE also crits base AD. So we can add another at least 15 damage to it, making that 106.

Bears Dont CareOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But Deathcap is 93% gold efficient and Void is WAAAAAYYYYY better than LW items. Void penetrates total MR. LW items penetrate bonus armor

That is because stacking MR isgenerally more difficult than stacking armor. Thisis because once the BUrst has hit you its gone for several seconds. When it comes to AD, you need higher levels of armor to counter constant damage that is incoming. Vayne doesn't care though.

EedatOct 12, 20171 votes

No,the real reason is because they didnt want AD champs building LW anymore to increase their damage against squishes. There was a time where Assassins would rush LW 2nd and ADCs would typically build it third because it amped your damage against all targets enough to make it worth it. They shifted it to a tank buster item in preseason 6 while leaving void alone so AP champs could still burst squishies.

Anyway, its irrelevant. Void is FAR better than LW

Bears Dont CareOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No,the real reason is because they didnt want AD champs building LW anymore to increase their damage against squishes. There was a time where Assassins would rush LW 2nd and ADCs would typically build it third because it amped your damage against all targets enough to make it worth it. They shifted it to a tank buster item in preseason 6 while leaving void alone so AP champs could still burst squishies.

Anyway, its irrelevant. Void is FAR better than LW

That was part of it yes, but currently, armor is more easily obtained so LW didn't really lose a significant amount of effectiveness when it comes to tanks. They also have BC

ChaosThiefOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's not just scaling, ADC items in general provide much better value then items from other roles, especially AP ones;

= 96% efficient, = 68% efficient, while both passives provide roughly the same value in the late game

vs /. All three have roughly the same stat gold efficiency (66% for void, 67% for the ADC ones) and all three providing 35% penetration, both ADC ones got a second passive on their items for some reason. And ADC can buy a smaller version of their penetration item with just the 35% penetration, while mages cannot.

vs . All three have somewhat the same gold efficiency without the passive (80-85%), but Shiv's/rapid cannon passive are much stronger then Luden's. You would need 2200 AP for the luden's passive to do the same damage as a Shiv's passive crit.

No wonder ADC's are taking over every lane in game... (and this is even ignoring Ardent Censer).

As to the first set, I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is since AP doesn't work in the same way as AD. All marksmen deal roughly the same damage per auto, whereas mages have different AP % scalings. Some are delayed, some are powerful in an instant. Karthus's Q and Cassiopeia's E are both incredibly spammable, and get more value if you're capable of maximizing the output. Veigar ultimate makes much more use of bonus AP than, say, Annie's Ultimate.

I digress, though, since the Deathcap hasn't really been touched besides in recipe for a while now, and infinity edge has been made a bit easier to get.

Void staff has more value in the pen than the last whispers do. Remember, it's not %bonus magic pen, but %magic pen, which includes their base magic resist, making that passive a little more valuable than last whispers. Also, again, void hasn't really been touched for a while.

Luden's Echo's passive effect is comparable, and maybe the movement speed, but it is a damage item over an attack speed item. Past the passives, they're almost completely different items after that. I would argue that the shiv and cannon passives deal too much damage for not having a scaling, rather than luden's echo being weak.

Those are just my thoughts though. AP items are due for a more proper update.

BańgOct 11, 20178 votes

u think building bramble and instantly shitting on every melee fighter with it feels like shit?

imagine laning vs it.

some dude afk farms and wont come near u goes back buys first item bramble and can stand still and auto win every trade because of a 1k gold item.

hes not beating u then? he then insta buuys tabis and ur done for.

RainfallOct 12, 20171 votes

i agree with you regarding bramble vest it is a bit op for a 1k item,it even forced riot to buff some fighters like fiora and trundle,i wish top had a more engaging lanephase and winning lane actually mattered more but it looks like thats not going to be the case gold distribution and isolation from the botlane both cripple top.

KrinuOct 12, 20175 votes

There are two problems that I see.

First and foremost, AA-based AD champions have too many separate multiplicative scalars. It's not one particular item, either - all the AD items are just... really good at what they do. You never have to juggle bad stats, they're gold efficient, their unique effects are both noticeable and useful, and they're easy to put together from component pieces.

Secondly, and more subtly, there's been a kind of shift in the purpose and power budget assigned to the support role. The support role has gone from "I exist to buy wards for the 4 members of my team that actually do things and maybe land CC if my champ has it" to full-fledged members of the team, with as much impact as anybody else. This has required a slight readjustment of perception on behalf of the player base.

Tank supports are easy: They're tanks. Mage supports are also easy: They're mages, with a different power curve. Enchanter supports, though, they're harder, because Riot wants them to be more than just CC cannons to be pointed at the enemy team.

So you get buffing supports, like Janna or Soraka, whose power is all tied up in how they buff their carry. Janna used to be brought for her tornado, with the shield as kind of an afterthought. Soraka was a joke. Then Riot rebalanced things with the idea of "hey, what if we let the support+carry combo make the ADC as strong as two players?"

And suddenly enchanter supports matter.

I really, really, really do not want to return to the days when buffer supports were jokes and/or garbage. Please do not bring us back to those days.

RainfallOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tank supports are easy: They're tanks. Mage supports are also easy: They're mages, with a different power curve. Enchanter supports, though, they're harder, because Riot wants them to be more than just CC cannons to be pointed at the enemy team.

{quoted}

Enchanter supports, though, they're harder, because Riot wants them to be more than just CC cannons to be pointed at the enemy team.

Enchanter supports, though, they're harder

https://i.imgur.com/Jkjom5O.jpg

KrinuOct 12, 20172 votes

You're taking the line out of context. It was meant to refer to the difficulty of finding a place for them in a team, not play difficulty.

EedatOct 11, 20174 votes

Hmm it depends.

There's quite a few mids that scale very hard. Think Cass, Azir, Anivia, Kass, Ryze, Ori, Syndra, etc.

Jungle scales like dogshit. A part of that is just the nature of the role though. A jungler needs to apply pressure early which is why the more successful ones tend to be strong early but fade in the mid/late unless they get very fed. Of course there are a few exceptions (Yi comes to mind), but junglers are going to be behind in XP and gold compared to solo laners in normal circumstances.

Top has a few that scale well like Fiora, Rumble, Nasus, Gangplank off the top of my head. Hell, even juggies like Morde and Darius scale very well IF they have a team that enables them. So I'll leave that asterisk for juggies. I feel like once enchanters get toned down and more engage supports like Braum or Leona can be played again juggies will become stronger again. Tanks scale differently. Their actually tankiness starts to fall off late, but their CC and utility is at a premium at this time

On the flip side, there are ADCs that scale poorly as well. Corki, Quinn, and Lucian are pretty well known for early/mid game powerspikes before quickly falling off

RootloOct 11, 20171 votes

On the flip side, there are ADCs that scale poorly as well. Corki, Quinn, and Lucian are pretty well known for early/mid game powerspikes before quickly falling off

Those 3 are barley adcs anymore anyway. Quinn is a better top and then sometimes jungler. Corki is a mid and now lucian is a better mid/top

EedatOct 11, 20172 votes

Those 3 are barley adcs anymore anyway.

How? Just because theyre not played bot lane? That has nothing to do with their class

RootloOct 11, 20172 votes

Adc isnt a class, its a role. The role is typically dominated by the Marksman class. So yes, by them not being played botlane they are not Adc's

ParoeOct 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Adc isnt a class, its a role. The role is typically dominated by the Marksman class. So yes, by them not being played botlane they are not Adc's

In MOBA general terms. In league specific terms marksmen ARE ADCs; its interchangeable in riots terminology.

RootloOct 11, 20173 votes

Excpet thats not true because Mord was reworked as a Fighter/mage/bruiser/whatever to play in the Adc role. Ziggs, a mage was played in the ADC role. Azir a mage/marsmen is a midlaner, Jayce a fighter/marksman hybrid is a toplaner

RootloOct 11, 20172 votes

Not to mention they designed Kindred, a marksman, Specifically for the jungle and with no intention to be played as an ADC

ParoeOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Excpet thats not true because Mord was reworked as a Fighter/mage/bruiser/whatever to play in the Adc role. Ziggs, a mage was played in the ADC role. Azir a mage/marsmen is a midlaner, Jayce a fighter/marksman hybrid is a toplaner

Yeah. Years ago. Riots changed since then. I dont know if youve noticed, but riots balance has very little consistency season to season and they compound their buffs/nerfs over time because of it.

Have you listened to the dev talk things? They use "Marksmen" and "ADC" interchangeably for the SAME THING.

RootloOct 11, 20172 votes

Again Kindred a "Marksman" is not an "ADC" Marksman =/= adc

Rhai FrostfangOct 12, 20171 votes

She's an Attack Damage Carry under the Ranged DPS category

EedatOct 11, 20171 votes

This is just wrong. You can play anything you want bot and it doesnt make it an ADC. Ziggs and Morde bot have been popular before in lieu of a marksmen in the role. There is no "role" called ADC. Its just ADCs tend to fill that bot lane carry position more often than not

SwagsogwaOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hmm it depends.

There's quite a few mids that scale very hard. Think Cass, Azir, Anivia, Kass, Ryze, Ori, Syndra, etc.

Jungle scales like dogshit. A part of that is just the nature of the role though. A jungler needs to apply pressure early which is why the more successful ones tend to be strong early but fade in the mid/late unless they get very fed. Of course there are a few exceptions (Yi comes to mind), but junglers are going to be behind in XP and gold compared to solo laners in normal circumstances.

Top has a few that scale well like Fiora, Rumble, Nasus, Gangplank off the top of my head. Hell, even juggies like Morde and Darius scale very well IF they have a team that enables them. So I'll leave that asterisk for juggies. I feel like once enchanters get toned down and more engage supports like Braum or Leona can be played again juggies will become stronger again. Tanks scale differently. Their actually tankiness starts to fall off late, but their CC and utility is at a premium at this time

On the flip side, there are ADCs that scale poorly as well. Corki, Quinn, and Lucian are pretty well known for early/mid game powerspikes before quickly falling off

Honestly I feel like Corki scales insanely well. Having the dps of an adc converted to magic damage is bullshit. It's basically as good if not better than almost any mage (maybe except ryze/cass which are THE dps mages by excellence) on a champ that's supposed to be a poke champion. He's also still rather safe with his dash

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 11, 20174 votes

So u really think Riot don't give enough love to Tanks ?! lmao this board

e46 FanaticOct 11, 20173 votes

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? lol

RainfallOct 11, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? lol

I dont know do i? lol

DuskDaUmbreonOct 11, 20173 votes

Clearly not. There are champions in every role that have scalings for all stages of the game.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 11, 20173 votes

Every lane has scalings for all stages.

Examples: Top has Pantheon for early, most of their lane for mid, and champions like Nasus and Fiora for late.

Jungle has a variety of every class, so no need for an example. Just pick from any class.

Mid has just about any assassin for early, nearly any mage for mid, and Veigar / Syndra for late.

ADC has lethality users for early, Draven for mid, and Twitch for late.

Support has Blitzcrank for early, Braum for mid, and Soraka and Thresh for late.

Literally every lane has champions for all stages of the game.

Tychusfindlay918Oct 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Every lane has scalings for all stages.

Examples: Top has for early, most of their lane for mid, and champions like and for late.

Jungle has a variety of every class, so no need for an example. Just pick from any class.

Mid has just about any assassin for early, nearly any mage for mid, and / for late.

ADC has lethality users for early, for mid, and for late.

Support has for early, for mid, and and for late.

Literally every lane has champions for all stages of the game.

Comparing nasus to twitch in terms of scale is a fucking joke, the only time that means anything is in a 1v1 which twitch and his spunk-covered support will never allow.

Ariel the CruelOct 11, 20172 votes

What supports are hyper scaling? And how are items doing it?

item 3504 average stats, massive level-scaling steroid. item 3174 Mediocre stats, non-scaling healing bonus item 2055 No stats. item 3092 Average stats, good non-scaling active (and quest passive) item 3190 Average stats, massive health scaling shield active (Such that non-supports are buying it). item 3109 Average stats, healing/self-damage scales with ally. item 3107 Average stats, ally level-scaling heal and non-scaling damage active. item 3069 Mediocre stats, strong speed boosts item 3050 Average stats, ally-scaling and non-scaling bonus damage. item 3401 Average stats, health scaling allied shield and level scaling self-shield. item 2045 Average stats, map hacks.

Support scaling is a joke, and only 2 shields scale off anything the support does/buys.

INoble KnightIOct 12, 20171 votes

you can get 200 AP easy from a support build with Athenes

Ariel the CruelOct 12, 20171 votes

item 3174 30 item 3504 60 item 3092 60 item 2049 0 item 1001 0 item 2055 0 210 total

item 3165 100 item 3102 70 item 3151 80 item 3135 80 item 3157 70 item 1001 0 400 total

Yep. 200 AP is such a massive amount in this game. It's also entirely besides the point.

Hyper scaling means your value increases multiplicitivly with the scaling stat. What support ratios aren't sub-par, are mostly on abilities with low usage. So They're not Hyper scaling off AP. Their itemization scales off max health at best; most scale linearly with level just enough to keep them relevant all game.

I don't know if OP is exaggerating, or confused. But support are not "hyper scaling."

Bladerunner7777Oct 12, 20172 votes

~~Nerf~~

~~Buff~~

~~Patch~~

Adapt

SzGamer227Oct 12, 20172 votes

In the midst of all the "games are too short" complains, we have a brave soul who steps up and says "every lane should snowball as easily as bot lane"

Meteor DrizOct 12, 20172 votes

Riot doesn't care about balancing the game.

Twitch deals more damage than any mid laner could ever hope for - from stealth - at a larger range - at full AOE - at a sustained level. And they dont even address it a single time.

They cant be that dumb, they just dont care. its the only explanation.