What is the actual point of keystones?

Eedat·Jan 11, 2017·127 votes·6,157 views

Think about it.

So we get these keystones and you're thinking "Wow, that synergizes well with a champ I like to play" right? So you take it on the champ and it feels great right?

Well, no. Turns out that the keystone synergizes too well with the champion and it makes them significantly stronger. Now the champ is too strong for a patch before being nerfed back down to their original power level.

But there's more. Maybe your champion synergizes just OK with a keystone, while a few other champs can straight up abuse the thing. Now the keystone gets nerfed for everyone because of a few abuse cases.

So what did we gain from the keystone? Nothing really. We just got pidgeonholed into one viable mastery setup and didn't gain anything from it.

So what is the point of keystones if they're so strong that champs have to be balanced around them? They seem like just another big factor hindering the ability to balance the game properly honesty

143 Comments

Dasdi96Jan 11, 201754 votes

At the end of season 5, the game was very balanced, with just a few overtuned champs like gp. Then rito decided they wanted to change the game and introduced the keystones, which threw the game intonan extremely unbalanced state.

EedatJan 11, 201735 votes

Kinda how like the jungle was fine for the most part at the end of season 6, but then they fucked it up just for the sake of change

KeevalroyJan 11, 201736 votes

"Nah we don't do that. How dare you?" - Riot 2014

"We sometimes change what is stagnant." - Riot 2015

"We constantly change things to keep the game fresh." - Riot 2016

I'm waiting for "Yeah, you guys were right all along; it is change for the sake of change. Deal with it." - Riot 2017

big boi edriJan 11, 20174 votes

Khazix Change is good

KeevalroyJan 11, 20173 votes

Change is only good when the idea isn't pants-on-head retarded, and defended with contradictions, lies, and radio silence when the first two are being called out. Story of season 6 in a nutshell.

TheDelightedJan 11, 201722 votes

Data shows that change is always a good thing... -Rito 2k17

Data source : Khazix

ElikainJan 12, 20177 votes

You forget that change is exactly what kept League alive for all these years. If Riot stopped adding or changing things in League, you'd be here after a week, complaining how there are no nerfs or buffs to champions that need them. That's literally the bare minimum they need to do, every patch.

In the end, every closed system will homogenize after some time and it's entropy will be 1. League is no different. What you think is OP now, can be countered with enough time by something else and the only issue is figuring that out. Working around the problem.

But this isn't the point. League isn't a game that was designed to work and entertain us for months on end, without any updates. MMOs work like that because the content they offer is vast and it takes time to experience it but MMOs also have their updates that add new content, buff and nerf things out of line and fix the issues created by the previous content.

Some of you believe that just because you can't see the problem with something, that the problem doesn't exist at all. And let's not forget that the community largely works with their feelings on the state of the game or they refer to third party sites that take their data from RIot's API. Riot keeps even more data about their game that isn't a part of the API.

SchàdenfreudeJan 12, 20178 votes

CS:GO has hardly changed since it's release and it's still a fun and popular game.

UKP LKJan 12, 20174 votes

what can u change abt csgo? nothing. Its a fps game, all they do is add new skin to guns and more maps maybe? and sometimes buff/nerf guns. where LoL has 100+ champs and everyone always complain abt sth. How many items are there in Lol comparing to the number of guns u have in cs go. Your point is so irrelevant

EtherealMageJan 12, 20173 votes

The constant changes also erode the importance of skill, as patches favor certain champions over others. Additions to the game are fine, but they are usually implemented poorly by wildly throwing off the balance of the game. Changes are also made too frequently, and by the time things get ironed out (if they ever do) the season ends and Riot gives us the pre-season patch with large changes and we do it all over again.

ElikainJan 12, 20171 votes

The constant changes also erode the importance of skill, as patches favor certain champions over others.

No they don't, and no it doesn't favor specific champions. People constantly complain that something is out of line and Riot is constantly investigating and taking action to address the issues. The meta will always be present, even without Riot ever addressing problems. Something will always rise to the top and something will always sink to the bottom.

The reason why it doesn't erode the importance of skill is because your skill is always tested in an ever-changing environment. Your teammates are random, the champions they play are random, the way they play the game is always different. So you're essentially playing on the same map but the game feels different, every time. And if you accept that change as your test of skill, the two week patches that address the power levels of champions are no problem at all.

The patches changes aren't random. The changes are backed up by the data from millions of other players.

EtherealMageJan 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Something will always rise to the top and something will always sink to the bottom.

That right there is the problem. I could be great with a certain champion, but if the state of the game is such that he or she is extremely weak, that won't matter at all. Generally speaking, no amount of skill can overcome the vast discrepancies in power that are typical of League right now.

The patches changes aren't random. The changes are backed up by the data from millions of other players.

Yes, and they are often executed poorly and /or blindly, with unintended consequences.

TheKemperorJan 11, 20172 votes

Do you remember Season 5? That was when the marksman update came out. There were quite a few problems, and large parts of the games were unbalanced.

KeevalroyJan 11, 201728 votes

That was in preseason 6. You're thinking of the juggernaut catastrophe which happened at the end of season 5.

Mid season 5 was fantastic! Nearly every single champion was a viable pick where pretty much only Sej and Gragas were balance issues. This was the healthiest, most accepted, and balanced state League had ever been in since season 2...but Riot panicked when champions had tools to shut down flashy playmakers right before Worlds, so they nerfed Cinder again, nerfed tanks again, buffed Lee Sin, LB, and Zed all at the same time, and then reworked Fiora, Darius, GP, Skarner, and Morde (Garen was negligible) just in order to make the spectator event flashier and more exciting to watch.

As long as the current leaders of the gameplay departments want this to be the League of Explosions, we'll never have a healthy League again. That's also why they're keeping keystones - more burst damage = more explosions. It's like fucking Michael Bay is the design director at Riot or something.

ElikainJan 12, 20173 votes

All 5 of the champions you mentioned needed reworks. Don't understand what was your point about mentioning that fact. Skarner and Morde were among the first in the class changes to receive them so it's understandable that the first champions might've missed the mark as it was Riot's first attempt at doing it. And after a while, they did gather the data from their earlier work, which brings us back to outstanding champion VGUs, mentioning Fiora, Poppy, GP and now Warwick.

Champions like Skarner and Mordekaiser were determined to be in need of a larger update, which they'll receive in due time.

Mid season 5 was fantastic! Nearly every single champion was a viable pick

Don't believe you. League has never had a period where everything was viable. There was probably a period of time where the most champions were viable, though.

NickssaaJan 12, 20174 votes

You'd be surprised

AdanimJan 12, 20176 votes

{quoted} League has never had a period where everything was viable. There was probably a period of time where the most champions were viable, though.

That was patch 5.15. Right before the Juggernaut update. The only problematic champions at that point in the game were Vayne Gragas Gangplank Azir , since it was the patch that nerfed Cinderhulk into a good spot, and even then Gragas and Azir weren't that difficult to deal with while and Vayne were banned every game so you never saw them. And even if you DID see them, there were at least multiple options to deal with them. Bans were based on what champions your team was going to play, not eliminating all of the power picks and then picking the rest like the game is now.

Every other champion was in a solid spot except for Nunu Taric and Evelynn , and these guys would STILL have a better opportunity to win and provide for a team compared to the lowest tier of champions during the last year.

Class updates and Keystones for the sake of "Meaningful choices" is another bullshit excuse for Riot to swap champions in and out of the top tier of power for professional diversity and making the most money. The reason why they buffed the damage classes all to hell and nerfed the tanks is because there are more people out there who play mostly the damage classes compared to the tanks/supports, and if those classes are on the stronger side, Riot believes that the game will be better overall and they will make more money out of it. Supports are strong because having strong enablers makes playing the damage classes that much more enjoyable, since you won't be dying as often as before and you can be more careless while still demolishing a team.

ElikainJan 12, 20173 votes

Riot's profits were never the reason why a certain change was ever introduced to League. And you also have to understand that League is an e-sport and that top tier play is very different than ours. So Riot has to do battle on two fronts - make out gameplay satisfying and as balanced as possible and then make sure that League is an entertaining e-sport to watch and engage in.

The constant complaints about their e-sport choices are getting tiring, when in fact they've already given an explanation why sometimes it may feel as they can lean in a certain direction. Not to mention that only 1-2 patches are actually ever oriented towards pro play and all of the rest are for regular play.

I still would like to see that data from 5.15, as i can give you a lot of examples of champions not seeing any games at that point: Akali Amumu Blitzcrank DrMundo Diana Fiddlesticks Galio Garen Heimerdinger JarvanIV Karthus Kassadin Katarina Lulu Maokai MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Nocturne Quinn Renekton Shaco Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner Sona Soraka Syndra Talon Teemo Tryndamere Udyr Urgot Veigar Velkoz Volibear Warwick XinZhao Yorick Ziggs Graves Sejuani Vladimir Fiora

These are just the champions of the top of my head, the actual data might put more on this list + take away the 8 champions that didn't exist, prior to 5th of August, 2015 (patch 5.15 notes were posted on that date, which might be a day earlier than the patch but that doesn't make a difference). Marksmen were updated in the patch 5.22, ~14 weeks later and that means only about 3 Marksmen choices on the bot lane, with 3 support choices to compliment them. More champions that are on this list were out of the meta. So that makes 126 total champions - 45 on this list = 81. That's 64% of the champion pool being used, by my calculations. Respectable sure, but those 45 champions are still someone's favorite champions that weren't on the map for various reasons.

Class updates and Keystones for the sake of "Meaningful choices" is another bullshit excuse...

Let me stop you right there. One would think that class updates actually addressed the issues of a particular class and left the updated champions in a better spot than before. So your issue with it is that those champions gained popularity after the updates?

Isn't that the point of those updates? To give meaningful choices when picking champions, making sure that each of the champions provide a unique strategic choice to a team and above all else feel satisfying to play with/against them?

Or is the issue you're having here why were the damage classes updated first and tanks/supports were left as last? One simple reason - people enjoy playing damage classes more than non-damage classes so Riot appropriately started the updates that reflected our preferences. Unfortunately for you, you were in the minority.

Riot has stated multiple times that they could change the pace regarding the VGUs/new champion releases when the community shows the interest in one more than the other. Currently, the data shows that new champion releases are valued more than the updates but there were 6 new champions in 2016, while there were 4 VGUs (if i recall correctly). So that's really close to one another, still being 10% in favor of new releases based on our preferences.

Sraeg2013Jan 12, 20173 votes

Of the top of my head.

On patch 5.15 picking at random: Syndra had 2.5% pickrate, which is her average pickrate since release. Talon had 5% pickrate. Amumu had 8% pickrate. Sejuani had 10% pickrate. Udyr had 5% pickrate.

examples of champions not seeing any games at that point

Your memory sure is faulty.

ElikainJan 12, 20171 votes

My memory is fine. And i have stated that i'd like to see the actual statistics regarding the patch 5.15 and since you clearly have the pick rates, i advise you to share them.

Also, pick rates aren't everything. 2.5% means literally nothing in a game where millions and millions games are played, that revolve around a certain meta constantly. Let's say that in a sample size of 1000 games, Syndra is getting picked only 1% of the time. That's only 10 games.

I can assure you that every champion has a play rate and it's never 0. By that logic, the entire champion pool is 100% utilized. The ideal pick rate should be equal pick rate between every champion but that's not possible. I'd say that 10% is reasonable and 5% is borderline considered OK. Anything below that should be cases that needed to be evaluated.

Sraeg2013Jan 12, 20173 votes

It means a lot, because every role has a different number of possible picks.

This is why an ADC having 20% pickrate is merely average, while for a midlaner 20% equals to being a bullshit that needs fixing.

An ADC with 2.5% pickrate means being a complete garbage, while for a midlaner it's acceptable.

Papa AndreiJan 12, 20172 votes

inb4 we learn Ryze is actually Michael Bay in disguise

Hello I am BirdJan 12, 20174 votes

I loved the "tank meta" of mid season 5 because it was so fun. Even in low elo where most people just try (And usually fail) to play fotm people, there was more diversity then than I've ever seen before.

I saw everyone from Urgot to Nunu being played all because they could! ~~Plus team builder was nice~~

EndlessSorcererJan 11, 20177 votes

Marksmen update was Pre-Season 6, not Season 5.

The Juggernaut update (along with Gangplank and Fiora's reworks) were the main issues at the end of Season 5.

The time between the outlying Cinderhulk junglers being nerfed and the Juggernaut update being released were wonderful.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

At the end of season 5, the game was very balanced, with just a few overtuned champs like gp. Then rito decided they wanted to change the game and introduced the keystones, which threw the game intonan extremely unbalanced state.

game was extremely balanced at end of s5. very fucking balanced. like you mentioned gp. few others like Lulu Fiora Rengar needed nerfs and that was it

KeevalroyJan 11, 20179 votes

Sejuani cough Gragas cough.

But yeah. I mean, Yorick and Shaco were both picked in the LCS, and they weren't troll picks! And not only did they work, the season 5 LCS games (particularly UoL) were some of the best pro games we've ever seen. It was one of the only times where you could pick almost anything and it could work.

Every class had a clear job, nearly every champion had a place in the game, and the only class that was pissy about it were the assassins, who before this time were so used to throwing their keyboards at the wall engaging 1v5 and poofing out when they killed the carry, that they couldn't adapt to having to actually position and THINK about their engages.

Good thing the faithful balance team pulled through in the end and destroyed this "nightmare" right? Y'know, since the majority of the roster being viable, and being picked was such a tragedy...

TheShashiJan 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

At the end of season 5, the game was very balanced, with just a few overtuned champs like gp. Then rito decided they wanted to change the game and introduced the keystones, which threw the game intonan extremely unbalanced state.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/851/804/7db.gif

FancyKiwiJan 11, 201729 votes

They wanted to add "strategic depth" to masteries instead of everyone taking the same page for every champ with only changing one or two things. That worked out so well.

MagikarpIsBossJan 11, 201715 votes

instead of everyone taking the same page for every champ

Thunderlord's lul

FantasySniperJan 12, 20173 votes

Thunderlord's is still used like 40% of the time. The next highest would be Colossus at 17%.

"Variety"

FailogJan 11, 201710 votes

Riot is incompetent at best.

ArnoldSchwarzensJan 11, 201719 votes

They wanted you to make "meaningful choices" instead of you just taking the same boring uninteractive page every game.

Since every ADC except Jhin and Corki have to take Warlord's every game and every choice in the Resolve tree that is not Courage of the Colossus is basically shit, I think it's safe to say that they didn't really accomplish that.

TheGr8WhiteDJan 11, 201714 votes

Keystones serve no purpose than giving an imaginary level of customization, when in reality you typically take the same mastery sheet for the same archetype of champions. Its to give you the illusion youre in control of how your champion will play.

BlåbæretJan 12, 20179 votes

Honestly, keystones broke the game. The worst part is that you risk your champ being balanced around it. I think talent trees are nice for that little bit of extra customization, but I'd rather have a bit of a larger tree with extremely minor benefits without the keystones. They simply can't be balanced, and some champs abuse them more than others. See Naut and CoC and tell me that isn't broken. You can't even dent his HP.

RalanrJan 11, 20178 votes

Point and execution are different things.

Mira Arya EntheJan 11, 20173 votes

Coming from WoW there is no execution where masteries are a choice. They are either the best option or another is.

QuephaJan 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AXXRyjTm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T17:41:53.996+0000)

Coming from WoW there is no execution where masteries are a choice. They are either the best option or another is.

Shadow Priest vs. Holy Priest.

Mira Arya EntheJan 11, 20173 votes

Masteries not spec.

QuephaJan 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AXXRyjTm,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T17:57:23.237+0000)

Masteries not spec.

We're talking about keystones in this thread so spec is the more relevant comparison. Keystones are at the end of the mastery tree, not the start.

Mira Arya EntheJan 11, 20176 votes

No final masteries from WoW would be. Spec is practically a different class entirely. Fire mage plays nothing like Arcane. Holy pally is a healer and prot is a tank.

QuephaJan 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AXXRyjTm,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T18:00:41.746+0000)

No final masteries from WoW would be. Spec is practically a different class entirely. Fire mage plays nothing like Arcane. Holy pally is a healer and prot is a tank.

And Windspeaker's Taric plays very differently from Courage of the Colossus Taric.

Dextix LTJan 11, 20172 votes

No, it actually does not play that differently. You have the same skills, same kit. The only thing changing is only 1 passive you take.

In WOW different specs are played completely differently, with different kits and skills.

QuephaJan 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AXXRyjTm,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-11T22:22:11.515+0000)

No, it actually does not play that differently. You have the same skills, same kit. The only thing changing is only 1 passive you take.

In WOW different specs are played completely differently, with different kits and skills.

CoC Taric wants to be on the front line because he'll get to take more tank masteries (either Tenacity or bonus armor/MR) and wants to be sure he can proc CoC, Windspeaker's wants to be on the back line so he can be sure he's getting his heal onto the right targets and keeping them buffed.

WoW specs are more different, sure, but that's just an argument of degrees, it's clear that a mastery system can make for meaningful choices even in the example people try to use that it "never" works.

Dextix LTJan 12, 20173 votes

Have you ever played effing taric? He will be on the front lines or the back lines depending on the match up not his masteries. If his carry does not need protection he will be in the front no matter the mastery. And if his carry neeeds protection then he will be in the back no matter the mastery.

He is not soraka, he has burst/heal shield, but no sustained healing. THe only way he even gets close to sustained healing is when he can proc his passive on enemies (Needs to be on the frontlines).

He will NEVER be on the back lines as a healer only. He is a tank first, healer secondary. His whole kit requires him to be close to his team, both the front and the back to maximizehis effectivenes.

Before spouting bullshit, please, at least play the champion.

SerBlaiseJan 11, 20177 votes

Solution:

Every ferocity keystone mastery provides DAMAGE in different forms (DOT, AOE, sheen proc like, just to throw out a few examples).

Every cunning keystone mastery provides UTILITY (movement speed, tenacity, scouting, etc)

Every resolve keystome provides SUSTAIN (Healing, damage reduction, shields, etc)

The exact details of the mechanics for providing these things don't matter. The problem is that they tried to intermingle all of these stats within each tree. There is sustain in th ferocity tree. there is sustain in the cunning tree. There is damage in the resolve tree. So where is the strategic choice when you can have it both ways with ONE tree??

gergopoolJan 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Solution:

Every ferocity keystone mastery provides DAMAGE in different forms (DOT, AOE, sheen proc like, just to throw out a few examples).

Every cunning keystone mastery provides UTILITY (movement speed, tenacity, scouting, etc)

Every resolve keystome provides SUSTAIN (Healing, damage reduction, shields, etc)

The exact details of the mechanics for providing these things don't matter. The problem is that they tried to intermingle all of these stats within each tree. There is sustain in th ferocity tree. there is sustain in the cunning tree. There is damage in the resolve tree. So where is the strategic choice when you can have it both ways with ONE tree??

This is actually a nice idea.

watch the bushJan 11, 20177 votes

Thank you, someone who actually understands that keystones only provide unnecessary power to what a champion already has or is capable of. All it does is create balance issues. This game would change significantly balance wise if they completely removed keystones.

PokladnicaZlaJan 11, 20176 votes

RITO:something something strategic diversity

KeevalroyJan 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

RITO:something something strategic diversity

I'm pretty sure enough of the Riot leg-humpers that defended this change have been silenced after watching a full year go by with entire roles being pigeon-holed into one mastery path for this argument to hold any ground. I wonder what they'll fabricate this time.