Boards›Gameplay

@Riot Remember When You Said This? Edition #2

Chønklord··2 votes·650 views

Remember when you said (circa 2014):

Ghostcrawler on Champion Roles In a thread discussing champion roles and alternative strategies, Ghostcrawler popped in to share this thoughts and champion role flexibility: "Quote Having flexibility in the game - where champs can pick different roles and lanes - keeps it interesting. We need more of that, not less. The issue is balance. Those champs have to be balanced for both solo lanes and duo lanes. IMO, this can be solved by designing all champs to be able to scale with gold, and then buffing the gold of the support role.

This is actually the direction we'd prefer to go. Now not every champion will be able to fill multiple roles (though Morgana feels close at times :) ), but we'd like to see players try more exploration of these sorts of things and not feel wrist-slapped by us when they do. Historically we feel we've been a little over-reactive in this regard -- as soon as someone steps out of "their lane" or tries something different than "their build," we try to swoop in and quickly make changes. It keeps the game balanced (maybe...), but it's boring.

One of our design values is Evolution, and part of that means being okay with players using the game more as a sandbox and feeling less constrained by the Riot approved (tm) way to play. If players find different ways to play champions, as long as it doesn't squelch diversity for other champions, and as long as our other design values (such as teamplay and counterplay) are maintained, then we want to try and support it!

Melee top, Mage mid, ADC + Support bottom has proven to be a reasonably healthy state of the game, but surely there are others, and wouldn't it be nice if players discovered some of them instead of Riot engineering them all."

#And this (also circa 2014):

Quote: What are your thoughts on pigeon holing a champion to a certain role vs letting them be able to go multiple places. Alistar is a good recent example of this, back in I think season 2 he was buffed up so that he could be a jungler as well as a support but found his ganking power to be super strong so he was nerfed so that he was a much less appealing choice as a jungler. Now he's gotten some buffs to be a better support, and even more nerfs to be less of a jungler.

All things being equal, champions that can fill multiple roles are cool. There are two big footnotes to this. First, we haven't always been great at supporting novel use of champions. In the past, if an AD Marksman started to get played as an AP, we'd sometimes stomp it out quickly because it was unintended without really establishing if the play pattern was healthy (e.g. did it have sufficient team play and counterplay) and if players would be able to come up with strategies to counter that play. We are trying to be less reactionary to those opportunities. Second however, game health still is a thing we have for which we have to be mindful. Jungle Alistar tends to be pretty frustrating for the other team, so it's not something we're likely to support without some fundamental changes to his abilities. Support Annie, Mid Lulu, AP Ez are champion roles we have no fundamental issue with, as long as they don't eclipse the champion's performance in all other roles.

RIP Off-meta laners/builds:

Malzahar Pretty much everything Ekko Bruiser Ekko Fizz Bruiser Fizz Alistar Top Ali Camille Jungle Camille Hecarim Top Hecarim Shaco Pretty much everything TwistedFate Jungle TF Zac Pretty much everything Zyra Mid Lane Zyra Ezreal AP Ezreal (barely viable)

Unhealthy/Oppressive Off-builds (little to no counterplay) that could have been reworked/nerfed differently to still be a little viable:

MasterYi AP Yi Tryndamere AP Trynd Alistar Jungle Ali Malzahar Support Malz Fizz Tank Fizz

RIP Off-meta playstyles/laning:

Shen River Shen Nunu Support Smite Roaming Nunu Singed Pretty much everything (roaming supp/proxy farming/laning)

And now you're designing or reworking champions specifically pigeon-holed into specific roles

Ivern Primarily jungle abilities, not ideal for solo lanes Rakan Primarily support abilities, not ideal for lanes or jg Alistar Reworked even more into support role Taric Completely reworked/nerfed out of laning into support role Sona Reworked/nerfed out of laning into support role Amumu Reworked/nerfed out of laning into jungle

Quick Shoutout to Mordekaiser, Aatrox, and Malzahar -- for the newer kids, these used to be playable champions in League.

Sure, I get it; you can't always balance every single champ to be able to go off-build or off-meta playstyles, but literally every single time there's any viable off-meta build or playstyle for champions you've either nerfed or completely gutted any viable and meaningful way to play differently with them.

(And no, MissFortune MF Support doesn't count, because that was a very specific pick for a particular counter. Even then, I think she got some ratios nerfed, may be wrong on that one.)

Don't even get me started on itemization nerfs. Every season we seem to get more items, yet builds still somehow end up cookie-cutter on a large percentage of the champion pool.

25 Comments

Fed by Snu Snu3 votes

Remember the last time Ghostcrawler's word actually had any value?

Neither do I.

Chønklord1 votes

I haven't been around long enough nor delved into the politics of League deep enough to really care about any particular league developer or employee's prior history; although I am familiarizing myself lately with what the community perceives of their character.

Most of what I've read from the things GC has posted and written through dev blogs, etc, are all very positive and geared towards allowing freedom of player expression through off-builds and off-meta. He's only one person though, there are a variety of Riot employees that also have decision making when it comes to the development of League overall.

I think he could do more to influence it, though.

OurLestrade1 votes

To be honest, most of the other Taric players I know play him top.

Chønklord1 votes

His AP ratios are so garbage right now he's not really viable even as support.

I'm not saying you can't try to play these champions differently anymore;

I'm saying they used to be more viable and now those playstyles are garbage/unviable.

1374341 votes

Well you are not really suppose to build Taric AP, even before his rework that was an off meta build really only viable in certain matchups.

He was disagreeing with your "Completely reworked/nerfed out of laning into support role" assessment for Taric. You still occasionally see top Taric today, and it is not like top Taric was this huge thing before the rework, you still found him heavily in the support role.

Chønklord1 votes

Yea but he was viable top. He's not even that viable right now as support. There are multiple threads talking about Taric and his crazy AP scalings / lack of viability in this season's new meta.

chipndip11 votes

You forgot jg Poppy.

Also, aren't the forums just as guilty? The forums won't rest until every mage that can be played bot lane is removed. Isn't THAT apart of that "flexibility", or is it only good when it's convenient?

Chønklord1 votes

Forums and reddit, yes.

Not all of us are against flexible playstyles though.

I love me some bruiser/tank fizz to death, and I wish they could invest some more thought into finding a way to allow fizz to at least build some stronger defensive items while retaining mobility in a way that isn't completely oppressive.

The problem with Fizz though originally, is that his base kit is just oppressive overall (as are most extremely mobile assassins).

Someone is always going to complain when they are facing a champion that can blink, dodge, dash, fly, teleport around faster than they can react and still do tons of damage.

So either Riot needs to work harder on allowing the less mobile/flashy champs to be able to at least survive long enough, which I think they have been trying to do with items like zhonyas, GA, Sterak's etc;

Or they need to stop fucking making/reworking champions with overloaded mobility on their kits. (See the first installment of this post series here on Gameplay boards).

I think Fizz could use even more nerfs to his E cooldown later in the game, but also either bring his E damage up, or rework his E ability to waveclear minions more effectively while doing reduced damage to champions. I don't know, maybe completely take the champion damage out of E and let it just be a waveclear / escape tool. That could enable his other builds to still function while keeping his damage output to a more moderate level.

Rewt1 votes

i am for flexibility in most places but it does get annoying when im jungling and before ive even finished clear #1 my botlane actually got 1v2d by brand. The mage supports are a problem simply because the do so much damage and if they get even slightly ahead they can actually 1v2. its not even a meme at that point. ive seen a brand 1v2 after getting 1 kill. its insane.

Chønklord1 votes

I have no problems with mages bot lane; it provides an interesting dynamic and requires the use of critical thinking and counter-play on the opposing side.

So many people in League have this notion that, simply because they get outplayed or bursted or whatever, by either a better player (or a better champion matchup) -- that then somehow "omg unfair, nerf nerf!".

If everything gets nerfed because of people like that; then what's the point of even having stronger champions or counter-matchups in the first place? All champions then should have the same movespeed, base stats, damage output, abilities, etc, so no one gets countered or outplayed except mechanically.

Part of the fun of League -- for me at least -- is being able to stand up to a stronger champion than my own through sheer gameplay ability and knowledge alone. It's why I like playing Tank Teemo top into ANYTHING; it's why I like(d) playing singed, etc.

Sure it's fun to jump on "OP flavor of the month" and just destroy your lane and everyone; but that makes for boring games in the long run.

And even if I lose, I rarely ever complain that "omg the champion is busted completely no counterplay".

That doesn't mean it's not frustrating to play against some of the handful of overtuned/over-compensated ability laden ones cough Fiora cough; that just means they need more balance tweaks.

Brand has gotten hit repeatedly in the past with nerfs upon nerfs, he's still decently strong of course; but that's inherent in his kit because he is a burst mage whose damage is DoT based. It's like Swain on steroids without the self-sustain. But he has plenty of counters; most mages do -- being relatively immobile and slow is one of them.

Rewt1 votes

I just dislike the concept of a support being able to 1v2 the enemy support + Carry, its just kind of frustrating to play against. You are clearing your second buff, glance down bot lane and see brand proceed to kill both the laners. At that point i just go to my closet. grab the noose and wrap it around my neck because that game either over within 20 min or its gonna be a 55min game where I have to carry my ass off and pray mid and top dont get raped by the roaming brand.

Chønklord1 votes

I've rarely, if ever, seen a brand bot solo 2v1 at level 2 or 3.

Sounds more like you just had a bad bot lane that got outplayed 2v2 and brand picked up the kills.

It's easy for low-elo players to make the mistake of letting brand get most if not all, of his spells down on you.

But overall I havent had issues with any brand except the ones that get super fed and blow up the team because no one thought to buy early merc treads or at least one MR item mid to late game.

Rewt1 votes

The thing is generally the brand's ADC backed and brand gets a little solo xp. gets 1 level on the enemy laners (often this happens for level 6) and then proceeds to 1v2.

Chønklord1 votes

Another thing I forgot to mention, not sure how long you've been around but it seems some people have forgotten about "kill lanes" for bot lane. I treat every bot lane with a marksman/burst mage as a kill lane and play accordingly.

Everyone's been so used to having atypical supports like braum, nami, bard, etc -- while they do provide poke and damage, it's not nearly the same level as brand, et al.

Since some key AP items were nerfed (but also lowered in price), it made it easier for mages to go as a support role, because all you needed was something like Spellthief's, Rylai's/Liandry's, and Morello to do as much as, if not more than, your carry, earlier on in the game.

There's really nothing inherently wrong with the strategy; it's come about because of itemization changes and such.

The problem I have is Riot straight out gutting champions that are normal in lane, but stronger in the support role; it's a god damn tactic and they should just let the community develop counterplay for it without gutting champions left and right.

Rewt1 votes

Ive seen kill lanes rise and fall (S2 and played every season since) but usually the kill lane relied on stronger early game ADCs to do the brunt while the support could get a good 50% hp burst onto the enemy adc. The problem with today's kill lanes is that the support is 90% of the lanes damage. Its pretty ridiculous.

I do agree that off meta shouldnt be instantly killed, but somethings are oppressive and need to be nerfed. In all actuality most of the things that are off meta that get nerfed are either A: Riot reworking them to better fit their role and the loss of that off meta build is a sad casualty or B: its busted as fuck. (God damn tank fizz right now)

And you referenced a few on the list up there Top Hecarim: was oppressive for like 1/2 a season. he won almost every matchup. and if he started to lose he just built Homeguards and instantly won the lane cause he could run to lane so fast with them that it made it so you could never push him in and get an advantage

Bruiser Ekko: Was actually the only way to play ekko because it was infintely stronger than ap ekko.

Bruiser Fizz: became the only way to play fizz because it was gamebreakingly awful to play against

Top Ali. They made it so that headbut wouldnt let you proc sheen so you couldnt get free trades on ali. It was broken and ruled LCS for like 3 weeks. It was pick ban. Thats all they nerfed and he instantly fell out of play

Jungle Camille: that shit was autistic. But only because camille was beyond broken.

Shaco: they reworked him to try and find a better spot for shaco. They quickly realised they made a broken champion and nerfed him to oblivion.

Jungle TF: Devourer. This was the shit that made Vayne Jungle playable. It was terrible to play against and im glad it is gone.

Zac: yea the update was pretty horrendous. Nerfs to his AP scalings were to stop that shit where zac would go AP and have infinite sustain in lane because of his blobs. It was insane.

Mid lane Zyra: RIP

Literally ALL of these champs (minus Zyra and Ezreal) were so beyond oppressive that they needed to be nerfed. Off meta builds should never become more powerful than the originally intended builds. While its sad sometimes to see them go, when they become so much more powerful than the original build it more often than not comes in the way of the champion becoming hugely oppressive.

Chønklord1 votes

I've never said not to remove oppressive things that offer little to no counter-play from the game;

I'm arguing that Riot doesn't even attempt to keep the off-builds or off-role champions from ever being viable again, at all.

They could have reworked Ali to still be viable top/jungle without allowing his oppressive sheen build to proc, for example.

Right now they're gutting the base damage on Fizz, and even though they're increasing his AP scaling slightly, that's effectively making Fizz "AP Mid Fizz" only, and even then he's really poor unless he gets extremely fed, the enemy is bad, or whatever. His waveclearing sucks, his late game (as AP) is essentially "hope to land long range ult and maybe delete a squishy before getting CC'd to death".

I get he's in the assassin class, but there are ways to modify his kit so he can still be viable building things like trinity force, gunblade, etc, for those of us that prefer to play him as an on-hit DPS bruiser/fighter and not a 1-hit-and-hope-to-live AP burst assassin. One example I can think of, is either completely removing champion damage from his E, and/or increasing E's CD just a slightly bit more in the 2-4 second range for late game. To compensate he can get an increase in base E damage to minions for better early wave clearing, and maybe have some of the Q or W nerfs reverted or tweaked. I think the changes to his base damage and AP ratio increase is OK, and maybe they could slightly buff his base HP a bit too.

Rewt1 votes

With ali all they changed was the sheen proc on W because it was oppressive. He immediately stopped being played top except by a very tiny select few. such a small amount that riot didnt feel bad about reworking him and giving him more Supportive options.

Fizz is so horribly unbalanced right now. The change they are making is the best change for fizz. Reduce base damages increase scalings. Thats what every champ like that needs. Focus them more on building damage to do damage instead of being immortal while doing metric fucktons of damage.

Also everytime one of these heheXD off meta builds that contain gunblade come about it is insanely broken. Makes you wonder. Are these champs really broken or is it those 2 items that appear in every single one of these builds item 3146 item 3748

Chønklord1 votes

It's funny people are complaining about gunblade, because a few years ago it was nerfed hard for being overpowered.

And yea I agree Fizz needs some love. I agree with the current balance changes... I just hope it doesn't make him complete crap building bruiser style. I don't think full tank fizz was healthy either, but I still would like to be able to play him as an on-hit dps bruiser and not a super squishy burst assassin.

What do you think about the idea of removing damage to champions from his E and buffing its damage to minions for better waveclear? Either that or remove the AoE slow his E has.

I think a lot of his damage potential, other than landing a large ult or W proc on-hit, comes from his AoE slow plus strong AoE damage on his E1. They can transfer that power to his Q or back to W in a way that isn't overtly too strong.

Rewt1 votes

The problem with that is that the first one would make him only played bruiser. His E is like 40-50% of his damage to champs. It would kill him for AP which is his intended role.

Moving damage onto his W and Q just makes him even less viable to be played AP and its going to just make him only played bruiser.

Actually let me sum it up this way. Fizz is way too mobile of a champion to ever be a healthy bruiser

Chønklord1 votes

Also, poppy is still playable in jungle.

If you're talking about pre-rework poppy.... that shit was just crazy busted lol.

"Press R and reduce incoming damage to practically zero from all sources except the target you ulted on".

So yea poppy just pressed R on the weakest enemy player and could tank everrrryyyythingggggg. RIP. Was fun though.

chipndip11 votes

Current Poppy's jungling has been steadily removed when they kept lowering her damage with no jungling compensation. Also, her main gank tool, her E, had like 100 range removed with no compensation. JG Poppy doesn't really work that well anymore, even in low elos. You could pick up a game or two, but that's not the same as "working well".

Chønklord1 votes

That would explain why I haven't seen any jg poppies.

Rewt1 votes

They were nerfs directed at Top lane poppy that had the unintended effect of hurting Jungle poppy.

EDIT: this is because Poppy was so unbelievably broken that she was the ONLY top laner you could play if she wasnt already picked or banned

chipndip11 votes

Doesn't change the fact that Riot did nothing to keep jg Poppy in the game.

Succubús GF1 votes

You forgot Urgot

Quick Shoutout to Mordekaiser , Aatrox , and Malzahar -- for the newer kids, these used to be playable champions in League.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Chønklord

Riot we need more crit reduction on tank items not less
Gameplay35 comments
121
votes
Kat needs more nerfs
Gameplay33 comments
33
votes
Playing supp feels like ass
Gameplay31 comments
30
votes
Example of "Report Calling" as a form of Harassment
Player Behavior9 comments
20
votes
Patch 7.10: End of Solo Q, and more
Gameplay40 comments
17
votes
Camera Lock Bug
Report a Bug15 comments
14
votes