The title.
with Randuin getting nerfed hard, there was already a huge problem as a tank itemizing against a an enemy comp like:
in the top/mid/bot carry roles. Not to mention if you added a damage heavy jungler like 
Irelia Bot19 votesReduce armor on Thornmail and give it 25% crit damage reduction.
EDIT: this is only applying to crit damage for those who fail to understand.
So the standard 200% of AD form a crit is reduced to 175 for a 12.5% damage reduction
If they have infinity edge it is 250% reduced to 225% for a 10% reduction.
xWaters2 votesNot sure why down voted. I'd be ok with this
Irelia Bot11 votesNot sure why down voted. I'd be ok with this
People think it is 25% of total physical damage from auto attacks not 12.5% of damage from crits autos or 10% if the attacker has infinity edge.
It doesn't even effect non crit autos.
Spoofghoul11 votes
return damage now crits back
Weight of Law1 votesthen make it a temporary active like blade mail in dota 2
Blackstone012 votesSure. If the return damage is 100% and lasts 4.5 seconds.
Anidan1 votesOnly bad thing is that item would be pretty good on someone like Jax too. Jump on the ADC and he has to worry about not only Counter-Strike, but Blademail active, too. Same for most melee duelists, really.
Chief Mayonnaise10 votesSo you're saying late game hypercarries building damage....are doing damage? You're telling me a champion with built in %hp damage and champions with built in armor pen are doing damage to targets that have built armor and hp? Why wouldn't they be dealing damage? Why shouldn't they be dealing damage?
Theres a reason damage stats outscale tank stats and that's because if they don't, games would become wet noodle fights lasting minutes at a time and games would drag on for 40+ minutes every game.
Tranoze33 voteswhat he mean is when vs a heavy Crit AD damage comp, a tank build 6 armor - health item and spend no gold in magic resist, he still die to AD damage in 8 seconds in 1 v 1 and 4 seconds in teamfight. Like this: You, without your item, live 2.5 second in team fight, and each armor item or health item, give you 0.25 more seconds more to live due to the fact their damage ignore half of your items. So, what the point of building tank anymore?
500000000000000033 votesWhen it's worth more for tanks to build damage against a full AD comp, something is wrong
JarvansWAR11 votesWelcome to the aftermath of preseason 6.
Chief Mayonnaise5 votesIf you're going to roll with the 4 seconds, that's a lot. That's actually very strong if that's the case. That's 4 seconds of the enemy team damaging you and not the carries. Say an adc is attacking you. An adc with 2 AS. That's 8 auto attacks that could have 3/4 shot one of your teammates and not including any damage that you're soaking from the rest of the team or accounting for what your team is doing.
If tanks really are lasting this long in teamfights, they are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
BTW Tanks are not dying in 4 seconds in 5v5 teamfights. The only time that is the case is if it's against an end game vayne/kog and that sounds about right.
Tranoze4 votesthis 4 second is not about people focusing you, the ad damage killed you is side damage from enemy. Nobody focus tank in teamfight anymore. If all ad comb focus a tank, he die in 1.5 seconds.
Earl Eulrich4 voteswow, that are pretty optimistic numbers...i´d be shocked if you last for even 2sec in a full gear scenario here once you catch focus.
and yea, there´s no point in building tank at all. With the current sets of items on the PBE you´d get a warmogs and a Gargoyleplatethingy to maximize the effective health while the active is up and everything besides that would not really make you more durable in comparrision, you will only live during that ridiculous active anyway - so you then go full dmg and hope to kill the dps while your active makes you somewhat durable.
It´s just the same bulls*** like redemtion...a way to powerfull active that forces a whole class to play around it or become obsolete.
rtbf2256182413 votesI think anybody that fights a hypercarry for 8 seconds and doesn't die deserves a medal.
Chønklord15 votesMy point is, you could have a "normal meta comp" like 
and your tanks still get erased by the aforementioned ad heavy team comp in a few seconds with all the crit damage focused fire, plus since you're itemizing against all the ad crit/true damage, you skimp out on more MR items and are more prone to being burst by an AP burst mage mid laner in the mix.
It doesn't make playing tanks fun; not even to mention playing bruisers or off-tanks or juggernauts -- who are sometimes the only type of 'tank' like champion in a team comp and have to frontline against that kind of damage for a 4-man squishy team that gets deleted if they're even looked at the wrong way.
I'm not saying this happens all the time, because obviously it doesn't -- but I'm saying a majority of games I've seen personally, have been/are revolving around "whoever has the more AD crit burst OP champs wins the game" style of team comp picking. Otherwise why would so many people have been up in arms about the recent Lethality buff patch and subsequent "nerfs" to Lethality items (like -10 off of an item and some miniscule changes to BC, please).
As said below, they JUST Buffed BORK; have you played against a competent 
/ 
combo bot lane, where Lucian builds 
and then whatever else he wants, and absolutely shreds everything in mid/late game?
Chief Mayonnaise2 votesAlright, I do agree that black cleaver is simply a stupid item as is rn. But my point is that if the team has 3 hypercarries on one team, especially if they have those specific champions with built in antitank tools, they should deal damage if they only build damage.
It'd be one thing if adcs like sivir or ezreal were shredding tanks as well, but the only ones that I would argue shouldn't really shred tanks are champs like jhin and lucian. Jhin isn't really shredding rn.
Lucian is stupid right now. He always is whenever he is remotely strong.
I think the issue isn't armor being too weak. Its black cleaver being stupidly strong. It really should not be a thing.
Chønklord5 votesDon't forget right now on PBE they're nerfing Health stats / Health off of pretty much every item across the board.
Elkington VI10 votesIf I had a dollar for every time I've seen someone say this over the years. This has literally never happened in this game, even back when tank itemization and scaling was strong (pre season 3). People just didn't blow up immediately and even ADCs were expected to include a defensive item in their build. Sure, games were longer (which I think was a good thing) but these wet noodle fights people like to parrot never happened unless two tanks were 1v1'ing each other for some reason (which wouldn't really have a different result now).
Late game ADCs still melted everyone back then, just like they do now. However, since the game was much less snowball heavy, ADCs reached their full potential more often and without being fed.
IdveYsUfSK4 votesthat was the prime time of league where games were actually balanced and had meaningful counterplay.
ZT Xperimentor6 votesDon't forget they buffed the ruined king blade too, after adding more anti-tank items from last season.
Scary Door5 votesYeah Riot. We need to make sure that ADCs are even less relevant and that games last for 90 minutes!
No one should be able to kill anyone else in under 2 minutes, fights should drag on to the point where everyone runs out of mana and we just auto attack each other to death.
I swear, if it were up to the boards, this game would be nothing but tanks and games really would last nearly endlessly.
Chønklord15 votesADC's haven't been irrelevant; they've been doing the most damage now in every game since the last few patches; even after Lethality 'nerfs'.
Have you even seen yet?
GayFluffyUnicorn9 votesI'd gladly play such a 90 min game. It spares me the pain of being 3/0 in midlane and still losing because everyone gets oneshotted with two buttons because my team at the rest of the map is 0/10. Game might become tactical and actually competitive once again and not who clicks two buttons faster to delete anything. I mean seriously, look at lucian. That's a champ i'd imagine to be constantly repositioning to get himself into a good position to deal dmg. Instead he just Es into the nearest target to burst them as fast as possible. Such counterplay, very interactive, many tactical. Mages like viktor could then actually be CONTROL mages by their abilities of locking choke points up and not control mages in the sense of: if i dont have three mr items i die in 1,2 secs to his rotation so i better take a different approach. This game was balanced a for a long time. No tank would burst squishies down since every adc, mage had some kind of defensive item. Yes tanks took a very long time to be taken down but that's how it should be. ADCs wouldn't snowball out of control to the point noone can stop them because they two shot everything. Lategame carries like vayne and trist could actually be picked and also REACHED their lategame. Now casters in the LCS speak about "midgame" at the 15 min mark. Are u kidding me. That's when laning phase used to end. Then suddenly riot decided to fuck this whole game up to appeal to the masses of autistic teenagers who need constant colors and explosions popping off before falling asleep. Now we have this clusterfuck of a shitty game where at the 8 min mark i can tell with a 90% precision who is going to win or lose the game. 10% counting in for the stupidity of one of the teams. I can't even enjoy this game anymore when i know after 5 mins that no matter what i do we already lost the game because my botlane died once and our jungle got caught in the jungle. We lose drake, a tower. Bot goes mid and bullies me away. They do herald for the top renekton and just push us in. First inhib taken at 12-20 min is not rare. from then on t's one baron and the game is over. I say fuck you and everyone who wants these kind of games in a moba. Give me back my old league, where braincells mattered and tactics/strategies were ways to win a game apart from: take the most busted current meta champ, press two buttons and snowball out of control.
Scary Door1 votesAhh, you're one of those nostalgia people who think League was once this great paragon of balance and everything was right. Maybe before I started playing in Season 1 it was, but from the moment I started playing and even as a new player to the MOBA world I knew it wasn't balanced.
The difference between Season 1 and now is that...
a) There were fewer champions so it was naturally easier to keep certain outliers under control at a faster pace than now---but make no mistake there were balance issues; remember release Xin Zhao?
b) the game was totally linear. Sure you could get Dragon and get some gold, Baron was a neat health/mana regen buff and gold, but it was very one dimensional in that the game never really broke off into skirmishes for side objectives.
c) Snowballing was still bad. This is probably the biggest misconception between old League (prior to Season 3) and now... First Blood bounty was lowered in Season 3 to 60% of it's value scaling up after 4 minutes as I recall. In fact, I'd argue that snowballing was WORSE in Season 1 than now because the catch-up gold that we have now didn't exist. If you fell behind, you stayed there, period. Could you get one shot in Season 1? Absolutely.
If you died enough in Season 1, you were literally worth Zero GOLD... and thus Proxy Singed was born... Riot had to change the gold bounty system entirely to nerf this unhealthy game mechanic.
Now, not everything about Season 1 was bad, in fact, it's why I fell in love with League... but the idea that it was this magical paradise that we should be clambering for... well... I don't see it. Don't get me wrong, I hate some of the changes and, yes, damage and mobility creep have certainly tarnished my enjoyment of this game also, but those are things that aren't changing.
Practically NO ONE wants 90 minute games. Season 1 had the longest games I can remember... some of them dragged on for 70+ minutes, now I suppose a bit of that is a function of the rapid growth of the game and the sheer volume of new players not knowing how to close out matches. Nevertheless, these are not things we want to see return.
The only thing from Season 1 that i absolutely want to see come back to League of the fucking Tribunal. I think the community was SIGNIFICANTLY better back then. If the community of today was the one that I encountered when I started playing in Season 1, there is no way that I would have ever stuck around. Luckily, I had a say in who stayed and who didn't with the Tribunal, now I have to rely on a computer to decide who the toxic members of hte community are... guess what Riot, it's not doing a very good job.
RainXBlade2 votesSo the TL; DR for this is that games were supposed to scale past 35 mins but all we get right now is, "Whichever has a better Lee Sin." wins" because of how snowbally the game is right now and people that are supposed to take skill like Lucian and Yasuo are just downgraded to just being, "Press 2 buttons, then autoattack the guy to death" kind of champions.
I pity the meta of this game right now.
Hallbuster3 votesNo we don't.....
DunkinNoobs3 votesI can't take this seriously when we just got out of a lethality adc meta are now in a botrk adc meta. Penalize crit more? Are you serious?
Elikain2 votesRiot we need more crit reduction on tank items not less
#No, we don't.
##Riot Repertoir:
I can definitely buy that Randuin's is on the weak side relative to some of its counterparts (I literally almost commented "This item is probably undertuned" in the post when writing it), but using the term "gutted" seems over the top. Regardless, Randuin's seems worth looking into.
Gangplank probably just shouldn't ignore Armor the way he does honestly. The Gangplank character on Live takes far fewer risks than he was originally intended to (I believe this is the case anyway) as players have learned to optimize barrel gameplay.
Lane Cancer2 votesConsidering how weak critical strike is right now in general, I heavily disagree. If yas, trynd, or gp become more of an issue after this, they can be handled on a case by case basis. I do agree randuins needs buffs on the pbe tho
woodvsmurph2 votesI agree the crit reduction on randuin's was one of it's 2 big selling points (the other being as reduction), but some of the champs you chose don't really highlight this well.
Too many armor pen items that don't sacrifice raw damage for penetration is perhaps a bigger killer. This makes these items viable in too many builds as compared to ap champs who generally have 2 magic pen items that logically fit their build path - this is a major contributor to why people get away with one mr item and have to build 4+ armor items as tanks. GP maybe builds one crit item in most instances, his necessary triforce, and the rest is either armor pen or survivability. 
is this enough armor pen items for you????
ap champs meanwhile have: worse items and build paths to have anything remotely resembling defense against ad champs AND fewer magic pen options as well. 
of which only two fit most mage's build paths logically - the rest either fit only a few select champs or require sacrifice in raw ap/cd/safety to build on most champs. The primary point of this being - there are too many good armor pen options to aid ad champs. Meanwhile ap champs are too easily itemized against by ad's like rengar and kha without them having to build a single REAL DEFENSIVE item (hp+resistances). And tanks and bruisers (due to needing to buy tank items in addition to one or two damage items) get repeatedly made less effective due to buffs to survivability for ad champs, %hp damage (hello new bork meta), adc buffs, armor pen buffs (lethality thankfully made more reasonable after a time of being way out of control - tanks losing 1/5 hp to varus q despite having 4 armor items), etc.
I'm not saying maokai and naut should be able to smash an enemy adc with a couple autos and abilities mid-game with no counter-play, but an adc shouldn't be able to chunk 10% of a 4 armor item tank or bruiser's hp with one auto late game - with all the peeling adc's get and how little engage most team's bring, it is basically whatever tank engages tends to die first and their team loses the fight - if you even have a tank or tanky bruiser on your team. Who wants to play a champ that just gets bullied in lane, gets focused down and bursted in teamfight despite building correctly - so that maybe their teammates can deal damage properly and win - while you sit with a grey screen as a reward for doing your job? This is what changes this season have mostly trended the tank and tanky bruiser role towards. Not exactly rewarding or engaging to play. And the reworked tank items don't sound like they are making this any better.
Geshultz1 votesThey are looking at armor penetration items, so i would wait on that to see what they change overall or what they reduce it to.
psuedo meta1 votesoh oh it seems like the ninja tabi+tank items OTP's are getting pissed
Kyovulpes1 votesThen Armor pen/Leathilty would have to get a major buff then. Because what you're saying is Crit should be able to be able to counter build against but you should still be able to keep all your armor as well so as to reduce the damage of stuff that don't crit? Thank god boards don't balance tanks would be rampaging through teams 1v9ing while people still are looking at their squishy ADCs to build damage against something that counters everything they buy Lmfao. Literally the case people want their cakes and to eat them too.
