Should Resource-Less Champions be given some stricter limitations?

DrMarshSwamp·Feb 3, 2015·88 votes·6,308 views

Just a small question, but does anyone happen to think that Resource-Less Champions need some more limitations?

Being Resource-Less they already have a big advantage over Champions who use Mana, and though limited only by cooldowns their cooldowns are generally the same length of everyone else's (depending on ability).

This allows them to pretty much spam abilities without stop in-lane, letting them constantly poke you and clear minion waves without costing them a single thing. If a Mana Champion tried this they'd very quickly run out of mana, outside of a few special cases.

Sorry if this sounds just like a complaint thread, but I really do feel that Resource-Less Champions need something to try and put some limitations on what all they can do, at least when it comes to the Laning Phase.

155 Comments

JustMyBassCannonFeb 3, 201528 votes

Manaless champions (because I'm going to include Energy in the discussion) are specifically supposed to have laning strength. They're supposed to be less limited than Mana-based champions.

The only reason people are struggling so much with this realization is because Chalice/Grail was ridiculously powerful. You spend (less than) 900 gold to basically remove your mana gate, and then it upgrades into an item with AP and CDR. Literally universally useful; the only reason a mage wouldn't pick it up would be if they scaled--specifically scaled--with Mana.

Manaless has always been less restricted than Mana. They pay for it in other regards: range, radius, cooldown, damage, any combination of those are going to be weaker than a similar spell on a mana-based champion.

SolaxoFeb 3, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Manaless champions (because I'm going to include Energy in the discussion) are specifically supposed to have laning strength. They're supposed to be less limited than Mana-based champions.

The only reason people are struggling so much with this realization is because Chalice/Grail was ridiculously powerful. You spend (less than) 900 gold to basically remove your mana gate, and then it upgrades into an item with AP and CDR. Literally universally useful; the only reason a mage wouldn't pick it up would be if they scaled--specifically scaled--with Mana.

Manaless has always been less restricted than Mana. They pay for it in other regards: range, radius, cooldown, damage, any combination of those are going to be weaker than a similar spell on a mana-based champion.

Lol Lee Sin and Zed

JustMyBassCannonFeb 3, 201525 votes

Oh damn, someone invoked the legendary names.

You can start any controversially-named topic about either of those champions, and as long as you're complaining about them, you're pretty much guaranteed whore upvotes.

SarcasticShepardFeb 4, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Oh damn, someone invoked the legendary names.

You can start any controversially-named topic about either of those champions, and as long as you're complaining about them, you're pretty much guaranteed whore upvotes.

The thing is with those two is that they have the kits and damage to be noticed. Maybe what we should be noticing is why none of the other champions (mana-based, energy-based, or neither) gained that level of notoriety.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20157 votes

Lee Sin has his notoriety because of his versatility, as I explained to another person in here. He can do things. He has damage. He has an execution. He has a shield. He has defense and sustain. He has mobility. He has AoE. He has burst. He has DPS. He has CC. Even a bit of utility with his vision.

When you just list everything that he has without any context, it sounds too damn good, and that's exactly what nearly everyone tries to do in order to call him overpowered. He has things, but he doesn't have any focus to his kit. He doesn't excel in any of his kit's strengths, especially compared to champions who are more focused.

Zed, meanwhile, is able to flow in and out of combat. He's not as mobile as other assassins, but his shadows are a little harder to predict than normal gap closers/escapes. His ultimate is a particular issue for some, because it leaves a shadow where he started, and a lot of people run away from that shadow, thus making an easier escape for him a la Leblanc.

Kobila2000Feb 4, 20155 votes

Actually, Yasuo, Gnar, Kata, Riven, Kennen and (I think) Rumble all had periods of hate because of the lack of mana not limiting their laning or giving them an unfair advantage over mana-using laners. Little wonder that most of them are known for their ranged top laning. Zed is designed by CertainlyT, so him being utterly broken comes as no surprise whatsoever, manaless or not. Lee just happens to be overloaded in exactly the way CertainlyT loves, I'd say it's just that his energy-usage adds insult to injury.

JunkοFeb 4, 20155 votes

Zed is designed by CertainlyT, so him being utterly broken comes as no surprise whatsoever, manaless or not.

Except that Zed is broken because of all the AP mage nerfs, not because he is badly designed.

Play Kat, Akali, or the like against mana mages that are supposed to counter them. You will shit on them because you aren't limited by mana, just like Zed can beat his own counters now.

Kobila2000Feb 4, 20153 votes

Zed has been popular for a very long time, certainly before these mana nerfs. You think he was nerfed before because no-one had problems playing against him? This is hardly the first time that his splitpushing, lack of mana and excellent turret diving is brought into question. And if you tell me that Lee just recently got popular as well, I don't know if I'll even bother replying.

JunkοFeb 4, 20153 votes

His last change till this patch were BUFFS. Before champions like Ziggs, Ori, Xerath could still poke him down because Chalice was actually good. And he had trouble going against some burst mages like Syndra for the same reason, so yes he did get nerfed because mana is shit now.

B1naryB0tFeb 4, 201510 votes

I certainly agree on the chalice and all, it was quite strong, but now it has next to nothing to offer. The mana ~~nerfs~~ guts have made it pitiful as far as a mana item, the MR offered isn't enough to be powerful in that regard, and the CDR is also offered by things like Morello, which outclass the item.

Also, the energy based champs like Zed (which is an unhealthy assassin, no way around it) are very strong because they don't have those meaningful trade-offs. Q, especially with the passive, makes for a nice range, nice cs, nice harass. And his ult (also with that obnoxious passive) is arguably one of the most damaging ults in the game, allowing him to just get away with a free kill and very little counterplay.

Tl;DR: Chalice was strong, manaless champs should have strength, but ATM they don't have the meaningful weaknesses they should have.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 201510 votes

I agree that Chalice was probably nerfed more than necessary. But right now, the only reason Morellonomicon outclasses Athene's is because it gives solid regen for less gold. Even then, if you're missing more than 500 mana, Athene's generally matches the regen of Morello's. The only buff it would need to be competitive with Omnomicon is buffing the base regen to +100%.

Okay, first of all, Zed's passive does not affect his Q at all. It indirectly affects his ultimate, but his passive is 6/8/10% of max HP on a target below half health on one basic attack per 8 seconds. Second, he's less mobile than most assassins--seriously--he has only two directly offensive spells, and he can't guarantee any kills without his ultimate against an equal-level opponent with two brain cells to rub together.

If you're talking about his energy regen from his W, he has to hit the same unit twice with the same ability. It's hard enough with his Q, and much harder with his E.

You could easily convince me that his ultimate's return blink is a bit too safe in 1v1 situations, but aside from that, Zed's really not unhealthy, despite the opinion of almost everyone and their cats.

LeeDarkFeb 4, 201512 votes

He still doesn't sacrifice range, damage, radius or anything else on his Q (or E for that matter) over a mana champion. Look at another slippery assassin, but one based on mana. Fizz. He has to land a skillshot ult in order to do Zed-like damage to someone, and he gives up a TON of damage if he wants to escape afterward with his Playful/Trickster. He can only complete this combo in lane a few times before going OOM, and has to put himself in dangerous range to do any of it, not poke from range like Zed.

So, how exactly is Zed healthy? He suffers from literally NONE of the problems you claimed were trade-offs for being manaless.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20152 votes

"Oh look, I can compare completely different spells on champions from the same archetype."

Oh look, you can make an uneven comparison. Let's not compare his Q to someone like, say, Ahri, whose Q has a higher base, has a stronger AP ratio (because 70% of AP is going to scale better than 100% of bonus AD, despite whatever misconceptions you may have), and doesn't reduce damage after the first target hit.

Let's not compare his E to, let's just say, Talon's W, which deals more damage, has a larger AoE, is not directly attached to him, and doesn't require a second spell to attach a slow.

Auz the RipperFeb 4, 201510 votes

Ahri is not an assassin anymore and therefore is not comparable to zed

Talon's Rake consumes 20% to 10% of talon's base mana depending on level And has a cooldown 2.5 times higher than zed's shadow slash

TheManUpStairsFeb 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He still doesn't sacrifice range, damage, radius or anything else on his Q (or E for that matter) over a mana champion. Look at another slippery assassin, but one based on mana. Fizz. He has to land a skillshot ult in order to do Zed-like damage to someone, and he gives up a TON of damage if he wants to escape afterward with his Playful/Trickster. He can only complete this combo in lane a few times before going OOM, and has to put himself in dangerous range to do any of it, not poke from range like Zed.

So, how exactly is Zed healthy? He suffers from literally NONE of the problems you claimed were trade-offs for being manaless.

The difference is Fizz's dash/nuke (Q) is targeted, and only avoidable via Flash. Q also applies on hits like Lichbane, along with his W (Its a targeted Draven axe essentially) as well as having no unit collision, a built in Zhonyas, and a AoE skill-shot nuke for an ult?

Used to be anybody other than a tank hit with Fizz's (R) would simply die to the manic man fish if Fizz managed to get into range. When you talk about champion mechanics and how they interact, a good series of questions to ask yourself is, "What's this Champion's ideal positioning? How easily can this Champion maximize his DPS?" Sure, Lee Sin (Why does no one talk about LeBlanc?) may have varied options as to how he moves across a lane, but as such his maximized DPS is harder to achieve. Lee Sin doesn't build a Sight Stone because he needs the health; for all intents and purposes Lee only really ever has 3 items if he's playing right. He's already stuck with boots, a jungle item, and then Sight Stone on top of that.

Zed, at least from my perspective, isn't comparable to Lee. Where Lee can just be anywhere, and do anything, there are a lot of clauses and conditions on Zed's maximum potential. Between the cast times/animations between (W) (Q) and (E) let alone the energy costs, Zed has to juggle a lot of plates in the air. Besides, if you're insinuating that Lee Sin's mobility in a lane = Zed's mobility, check your math. Lee Sin is the final word in mobility.

LeeDarkFeb 4, 20152 votes

Yes, they are different, but they are the same role, so they make the best comparison for the argument about mans vs. non-mana. I can easily come back and say that while Fizz has a target Q, Zed has a targeted ult that makes landing Q and E afterward trivial. Fizz has to actually aim his ult, and if it doesn't land, he has to reconsider going in at all, because killing his target will get him killed. Without the ult, he has to use his built in Zhonya's for damage instead. Zed, on the other hand gets to target his ult, guaranteeing he can go in for a lot of damage. He uses his Q and E and gives up nothing in order to escape again with his ult. In lane, he has superior range and superior base damage to go along with spammability.

Yes, USED to be that anyone other than a tank that got hit by FIZZ'S ENTIRE FULL COMBO would die. Now that only happens if you are fed as Fizz, and Zed gets to do the same without being fed... if he's fed, he kills tanks, too. And don't come back with Zhonya's and Mercurial... you can eliminate Fizz's combo much the same way with a Banshee's or Zhonya's.

I don't know why you bother comparing him to Lee Sin. I'd consider them both unhealthy for the same reasons. Being manaless means you are supposed to sacrifice in some other aspect compared to a similar champion in the same role, but neither Zed nor Lee sacrifice anything.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20152 votes

Zed and Lee Sin both get a different set of advantages compared to Fizz, which makes the comparison between the two a terrible choice despite them being the same archetype of champion.

You don't compare the AoE of Veigar and Zyra; they're both mages, but Zyra's entire kit is focused on AoE while Veigar's has one damaging AoE spell. You don't compare the range of Evelynn and Leblanc; Evelynn is melee and Leblanc is ranged, they're designed differently.

Fizz to Zed and Fizz to Lee are not fair comparisons when they weren't designed with any level of similarity.

LeeDarkFeb 4, 20152 votes

Zed and Fizz are far more alike than Zed and Lee Sin, Veigar and Zyra, or Evelynn to Leblanc.

They are both melee, both assassins, both vulnerable earlier in the game and strong in midgame, both want to explode as soon as they hit six. The ONLY differences are the fact that one uses mana and one doesn't, and the specific spells they use to accomplish the goal. They are PERFECT for comparing the state of the game as it relates to manaless champions. In fact, I would even go so far as to argue that the only comparison that could be MORE accurate is Talon and Zed, which I also addressed.

I never compared Fizz to Lee Sin, so just let that go.

LeeDarkFeb 4, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Manaless has always been less restricted than Mana. They pay for it in other regards: range, radius, cooldown, damage, any combination of those are going to be weaker than a similar spell on a mana-based champion.

Yeah, except most of them don't pay for it at all.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20155 votes

How?

Katarina pays by having a kit that, without her ultimate, deals less rotation damage than one or two spells from a normal mage or assassin.

Zed has only two directly offensive spells in his kit, and his energy regen is tied into hitting someone twice with the same spell, which is the hardest Energy gain effect.

Shyvana and Gnar can't use their ultimates, which also locks out their hard CC, without 100 Fury.

Riven has no harass; she either has to go all in or stay out. And, if she does go all in, it's pretty easy to trap her in a gank.

The only one I can name with minimal cost is Lee Sin, because he's very versatile. However, his versatility forces the player to master a whole lot of mechanics at once, and versatility itself comes at the cost of basically not excelling in any one area. His damage output, while impressive, doesn't outpace damage-focused champions. His defenses don't beat defense-focused champions. His utility is average compared to other bruisers. He can do a lot, but he can't do everything. Lee Sin's strengths are still overshadowed by people who do all of those jobs better, so he's only truly effective with champions he can properly back up.

LeeDarkFeb 4, 20151 votes

And I can name a similar mana-dependent champion who suffers from all those same problems... PLUS the fact that they go oom against those manaless champions.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20151 votes

And that disproves...what?

LeeDarkFeb 4, 20153 votes

"Manaless has always been less restricted than Mana. They pay for it in other regards: range, radius, cooldown, damage, any combination of those are going to be weaker than a similar spell on a mana-based champion."

It disproves THAT. Do try to keep up.

Knight SoIaire Feb 4, 20156 votes

They pay for it in other regards: range, radius, cooldown, damage,

unfortunately thast isnt so true

when chalice was a thing riot was already ballancing the game mana was infinite so why should be manaless champions worse when ultimately noone is resource gated past couple minutes ? so riot ballanced them to be quite equal now mana gating is actualy a thing and manaless champions prove to have as potent skillsets without a cost making them simply better choices

the fun fact is that it onlyy applies to midlane because it was the onl lane affected by chalice

BorblandFeb 4, 20156 votes

I could agree with that.

Except manaless champs barely pays for their lack of mana, they have no longer cooldowns (Yasuo, Riven), their damage and mobility is close to those who have mana etc.

Kobila2000Feb 4, 20154 votes

I don't see any of the weaknesses you mention in manaless champions. They sound like the weaknesses they should have, but in reality don't. Also, you're forgetting that Grail provides magic resist. It's not universally useful.

I'm not going to count health-based champions as manaless because they're the only ones who actually pay for not using mana in ways that you mention. Instead I'll look at others:

Literally all energy-based champions are very mobile. Well, aside from Shen I guess, though he still has a decent gapcloser. 0 Olaf-level immobility. Radius? Kennen's ult is one of the largest aoe ults. The others fill in an assassin role, which naturally is not supposed to specialize in aoe damage however Zed still does plenty of it, giving him utterly toxic splitpushing abilities. As for manaless bruisers and adc? Also mobile, in fact Riven and Yasuo are probably the most mobile champions in the game. Gnar? Kata, who can jump to wards? The only truly immobile champions there are Garen, a relic from before the League of Mobility, and Rumble (dunno when he came out). 2 champions out of 16. Radius? Almost all of them deal good aoe damage. Cooldown? Rek'Sai and Yasuo both have spammable damage spells. Riven's shield/dash is on a 6 sec cd. Heck, compare the poke of, say, Zed, Akali or Kennen (6, 6 and 8 sec at first rank) to say Talon or Kha or J4 (10 sec). I don't see any difference in cooldown duration between manaless and mana-using champions. None. Damage? Yeah, do I even have to start with this? You think some of the most hated lane bullies, melee adc and assassins are manaless because they have to pay for their lack of mana in damage? Yeah, sure thing.

And manaless champions are supposed to have laning strength? Why? Assassins and lane bullies are supposed to have laning strength due to their high base damages. Giving a champion class with laning strength even MORE laning strength is supposed to not create overused broken champions somehow? And I'm pretty sure melee adc are not supposed to have laning strength, but damn, I guess I'm just missing something in Riot's logic.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't see any of the weaknesses you mention in manaless champions. They sound like the weaknesses they should have, but in reality don't.

I'd like for you to bring up an example, as you're one of three people to say this.

Pick a manaless champion, other than Lee Sin who I have already explained in detail twice, and explain to me how they do not have weaknesses that mana-based champions do not.

Also, you're forgetting that Grail provides magic resist. It's not universally useful.

*gasp* He's right! I totally forgot to account for the all-AD-with-absolutely-no-magic-damage team comp that totally existed in any season ever!

Kobila2000Feb 4, 20158 votes

Glad to hear I'm already the third person telling you about this.

I don't see the point of what you're asking? I already explained why there is not a single disadvantage in manaless champs where they suffer in a way comparable to mana users. But okay, take a look at Skarner (just because I'm playing his right now), who has crap damage, crap mobility, even crap cc (yeah good luck reaching anyone of importance with that ult) AND is severely limited by mana for some reason. You are acting like an ability to spam without ever having to recall to replenish your resource is just a slight advantage.

You do realize that AD midlaners (mostly assassins,) are a thing, two of them being the megapopular Zed and Yasuo? Do you think they're played jungle or top or something?

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20152 votes

...

I don't know why I try to argue with people on the boards. It's like trying to find intelligent life in space, except with exceptionally lower probability.

I said name a manaless champion who does not have any weaknesses and is basically a better version of a mana-based champion. Not "badmouth a mana-based champion because you don't like them."

Kobila2000Feb 5, 20154 votes

A manaless better Skarner? Rek'Sai. Much higher damage, higher mobility, more reliable utility and most importantly, not kept unviable by high mana costs. I'm still not sure what the point of your question is. Most champions use mana and most champions are not particularly viable so how do you imagine this to go in favor of the manaless champions? But alright, I'll just compare the overused manaless champions to the first mana user in that category that comes to mind:

Let's look at Yasuo. Let's compare him to Fiora, a fellow adc. Let's compare passives: Yasuo gets a shield, Fiora gets some hp regen. For defense Yasuo has a windwall, basically he sets up a spellshield that blocks infinite amount of damage for a set time. Fiora has perry. Yeah. Let's look at mobility. Fiora has two dashes. Yasuo has...yeah. Spamming? Yasuo has an aoe Q on a 4 sec cd. And Fiora...yeah. Utility? Yasuo has an aoe long-range knockup every third Q. Let's laugh at Fiora there. Do we even have to compare ults? Someone else once said that Yasuo does a better Fiora ult than Fiora. Not only does he extend the duration of a knockup, he also has 50% arpen. OH and let's not forget the 50% increased crit chance! Or maybe you want to compare him to Yi? Heck, you can even compare him to Aatrox and you'll get the same result (as I said, hp champs are actually balanced around not using mana).

Let's compare two fighters, Darius and Riven: Riven has multiple jumps on a 13 sec cd and she can go over walls with them. Darius has 0 mobility. Best of all, this makes her ungakable, while ganks are Darius' hardest counter. Darius has a pull. That's pretty much it as far as his utility goes. Riven has a knockup and an aoe stun. Riven has an AD SCALING SHIELD. No-one else in the game has this. It is also a dash. It is also on a low cd. 0 points for Darius again. Darius does have one thing going for him, his good base damages which allows him to build tanky. But that's useless when there is absolutely no way he'll be reaching anyone but tanks in teamfights who will sustain his damage. He needs time to put stacks for his ult and unless the enemy happens to pick someone like Varus, that's not happening in the League of Mobility. Riven? Not only can she bunny-hop + dash after you, the creators felt she also needed a giant cone execute in case she can't reach her enemies. Just compare their pick rates on high elo because there people can actually tell who's broken. In fact most mana toplaners seem to be the opposite of mobile. And like Yasuo, she was also played mid, which should tell you something about her. Or hey, Pantheon would be a better comparison since he actually is used. With his single target burst, single target stun, good poke and a huge windup ult. However his ranges are very low, both on poke and leap so he's not really mobile. Being enemy-targeted also makes him susceptible to ganks. Even if he reaches a squishy (because he's useless once you outsustain his burst), his single-target stun is easily interrupted.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 5, 20151 votes

Rek'sai versus Skarner. Okay, so let's compare a tank to an assassin. Why don't we also compare Alistar to Zed, while you're busy weaving baskets?

An actually similar comparison would be Shyvana and Skarner.

The funny thing about both of those comparisons is that you picked a manaless champion that doesn't excel, and you named a mana-based champion that Riot has been working on reworking, because their kits are considered shit-tier.

You didn't pick Jax versus Riven, or Yi versus Yasuo. No, you go for Darius and Fiora. Both of whom are inviable for reasons completely unrelated to Mana. Yes, they're bad mana champions, but if you're using them to set the bar, you may as well drop the bar on the floor of Satan's wine cellar.

I've both seen and played both sides of Pantheon vs Yasuo. The stun and attack blocking gives him a pretty huge edge in the fight. Panth loses maybe one in three of those duels.

Kobila2000Feb 5, 20153 votes

What...Rek'Sai is an assassin? lol wat...Are you...are you trolling? I know someone who thinks Lee is balanced can't be right in the head, but are you actually serious right now?
Hey, you're the one who asks the stupid questions and who claims that manaless champs are in fact "disadvantaged" compared to mana champs, which is complete bullshit. And in fact, many champions, Skarner included, are crap precisely because their mana costs are atrocious and their late game does not make up for their weaknesses. And I pretty much told you right there that you can compare Yi and Yasuo or even Aatrox and Yasuo would still come out on top, though for some bizzare reason you're playing stupid about that? Melee squishy damage dealers tend to be unviable because they're a moronic, broken concept so you have to overload them for them to do their job. But oh gee, guess which ones tend to excel in that regard. Manaless ones.
I'm not talking about these champions playing against each-other, where are you even getting this? I'm talking about their overall strength and ease of doing their job (which most mana users have problems with) contrary to your rubbish about manaless champs suffering in terms of damage, mobility or radius.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 5, 20151 votes

My bad, I hadn't kept tabs on Rek'sai's tags. That was my mistake. So now I'll take the comparison seriously.

Rek'sai is a pure Fighter. Design is a melee champion based on getting into combat, giving and taking damage, and she has very minimal utility; a single knockup and some vision mechanics.

Skarner is a Fighter Tank. Again, melee champion who gets into combat, gives and takes damage. Where Rek'sai is much more focused on dueling and killing, Skarner is built to handle more pressure and disable priority targets with CC so his team can deal with them.

Their jobs are similar, but with different goals. Rek'sai is going to be better at killing her opponent in a duel, as well as getting in and out of combat. Skarner is going to be better at threatening multiple people in a fight, or singling out a particular unit for his team to kill.

Final note: Did I say Lee Sin was balanced? I'll accept that what I said could be considered implying he was actually balanced, and there might be something that, out of context, sounds like that. But, no, I don't think Lee Sin is balanced. His kit suffers from a lack of identity through jack-of-all-trades design, which is imbalanced. But it's not due to him being Energy-based, and that is what I'm debating.

No, I am not claiming they have a disadvantage compared to mana-based champions. If they had a true disadvantage, they would be unquestionably worse, and we wouldn't even have threads complaining about them being OP. What I am claiming is that the advantage of not dealing with mana is balanced by their kit design; the four most common differences are longer cooldowns, lower damage, and/or shorter range/smaller AoE. Being manaless is one advantage. Having long range is another advantage. Having high burst is another advantage. There is no champion who has the best of all advantages at the same time. That is what "Balance" means.
(a) I didn't say mobility was one of the weaknesses, actually. (b) Honest mistake, again; that said, Yasuo suffers from the same weaknesses as Pantheon. Survive his initiation, and he's a dead man standing in the middle of your team. Except Pantheon doesn't have skill shots, and doesn't rely on an ally's CC in order to actually get into the fight.

Kobila2000Feb 5, 20155 votes

Rek'Sai's whole design should tell you very clearly that you can not play her as an assassin.
Well actually, no-one is complaining about energy users like Shen and no-one is complaining about hp-based champions. What people are complaining about are champions who do not have any weaknesses to make up for their lack of mana. You mention these weaknesses and yet fail to provide champions who actually have them. This is all nice in theory, but Riot, in their infinite stupidity, does not bother actually providing these limitations because they see how popular it is to not have to worry about resources and spam as soon as stuff is off cd. Do tell me which manaless champions are so severely limited by their resource or lack thereof.
UUUH Yasuo has 50% free arpen and crit chance? So good luck surviving his "burst" (he's not combo reliant as Panth since he's a marksman) and btw, good luck not getting engaged on when he reaches you half-way across the screen. Good luck cc-ing him too, since he won't be standing there like Panth.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 5, 20151 votes

I already said it was my mistake. I haven't really given a single damn about Rek'sai, it's the first time I actually looked up her kit. And you are still comparing two champions with different goals in fights, and thus different strengths. Where Rek'sai is a dueling, killing machine, Skarner is a focus-drawing, CC-doling champ. Skarner isn't going to be Rek'sai in kill count, and Rek'sai isn't going to beat Skarner in team fight utility.
No one complains about Shen because Shen, as a tank, has already dealt with four seasons of direct and indirect nerfs. He was 100% pick/ban back in his heyday, but years of nerfs have not been kind to him.

Conversely, why don't you name a manaless champion who has a range advantage comparable to Xerath and Lux? Or a manaless who has the burst advantage of Syndra, or the DPS advantage of Udyr? Is there a manaless with AoE that rivals with Zyra? Does any manaless champion have the late-game strength of champions whose primary role is Marksman? (I looked it up; the only manaless Marksman is Gnar, and his primary role is Fighter)

50% of Bonus Armor penetration, and that doubled crit chance comes at the cost of damage that's actually more significant than most people recognize. And by "his burst" I mean his ultimate's initiation, which requires a prior Airborne CC effect. Once that is over, retaliate with CC on the now-in-melee-range samurai. Done it before, it works. It works even better if you don't get hit, then just CC him during his ultimate, so that when it ends, his target can walk away while he's standing there like an idiot.

Kobila2000Feb 6, 20151 votes

Yes, thank you for saying that Shen, along with every single energy user, has been toxic and problematic and had to be severely nerfed. You're hardly making an argument for yourself.

Xerath is a special case among mages because he is specifically made to have long range, but this is not in the least the norm among mages. You can hardly use him as an example of how mages in general play because the average range of most of them would probably be around 700 or so. And considering that all but 1 and a half manaless champions are melee I really don't understand what you're trying to do here. Assassins lacking Xerath-level aoe poke is supposed to be a disadvantage to manaless champions? Because I don't see Talon, Fizz or Kha excelling in that regard either. You are comparing assassins to mages and pretending like the reason they don't have mage abilities is because they're manaless and not, you know, because assassins aren't mages. Burst advantage of Syndra? Zed. Akali. Kata. Heck, you're seriously asking this when so many manaless champions specialize in high damage? Riot idiocy aside (durrr Xerath is an assassin hurr), Yasuo, Trynd and Aatrox are made as melee marksmen, Riot themselves said so. If you absolutely have to build more than one damage item on them to be relevant, they're marksmen (or assassins, the fact that they're hard to tell apart is a testament to Riot's incompetence), NOT fighters. And I wonder if you've ever faced a fed Trynd or Yi or Yasuo if you can ask if they compare to ranged marksmen in damage. Dps advantage of Udyr? Yeah, melee marksmen, especially since they can actually afford to build damage, while Udyr has to go tank. Udyr also has no burst and no gapcloser or escape and please don't try to convince me those poor manaless marksmen are screwed in the same way. Manaless with aoe that rivals Zyra? Yeah. Katarina. Rumble. Kennen. And this considering that manaless champs mostly belong to classes that are not supposed to specialize in aoe. And I never did the numbers, but I've seen too many Riven with Hydra destroy several people with her aoe.

Yeah, I'm sure Yasuo has sooo much trouble hitting that fast moving knockup every ten seconds or getting someone else to do that when every new champion in LoL gets equipped with knockups. Also you're just never ever going to convince me that Yasuo's damage is weak. I don't use drugs.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 6, 20151 votes

If you want to take what I said about Shen out of context, be my guest. It's not like I haven't said anything stupid in this argument.

Actually, average for a mage is to have one skill shot in the range of 700-900, and/or a targeted spell under 800, and/or a skill shot/AoE that's over 900, under 1300. Whether the missile's range or due to AoE. Yes, obviously, there are exceptions; Annie, Cho'gath, Diana, Evelynn, etc., but the rule of thumb for mid lane mages falls under that design.

Ahri (she's a mage and assassin, please just leave it alone -_-) Orb of Deception: 880 range. Charm: 975 range.

Anivia Frostbite: 650 range. Flash Frost: 1175 range (distance + AoE)

Brand Sear: 900 range. Conflagration: 625 range. Pillar of Flame: 1150 range (distance + AoE)

Cassiopeia Noxious Blast: 925 (range + radius). Miasma: 1150 (range + radius)

I think I gave enough examples; if you don't, then I can continue later.

Akali and Katarina don't have anywhere near Syndra's burst potential. Even at just 4 spheres--a single, full spell rotation--it's impossible for either Akali or Katarina to match Syndra's burst. Neither of them have CC to guarantee their bursts, either. As for Zed, he's much closer, but it takes a nearly perfect rotation for him to deal as much burst as Syndra. If you'd like, we could even math-craft with builds and I can prove Syndra has matching, if not stronger burst, compared to Zed.

I find it amusing how you first mention Aatrox, then suddenly he disappears and you add Yi to your arsenal, conveniently forgetting he's Mana-based and more viable than Tryndamere or Yasuo at the moment.

Anyway, I can math-craft and prove Yasuo's DPS isn't on par with Marksmen after mid-game (it's mid-game where Yasuo gets his spike; after that, he falls off). Tryndamere is a fair point, but he has been problematic for reasons other than being manaless. Surprise, surprise.

Also, I'd seriously like to watch those manaless melees deal with a Udyr. Ever. Like, it's the funniest damn duel to watch. I've seen it enough times to know.

Katarina, no. Rumble, I'll give you that his ult is about as good as Zyra's. Kennen, on his ultimate, sure. Thank you for proving that you can provide a few examples.

I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. Not even if I show you the math do I believe for one second that I could prove Yasuo's DPS is subpar late-game. Learning the mechanics is a lot smarter than just implying that I'm tripping, but I can't make you do the former. A fool will sit happily in his ignorance.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Which does bring us to the fact you're still conveniently ignoring: there is only one manaless mage. You are comparing apples to oranges and pretending that oranges are worse because they're not apples.

Fair enough; the point of mentioning each of those things was to get you to bring up a counter-point. That's a counter-point. You've officially gained ground in an argument.

The rest of what you said is reaching really high levels of stupidity. Especially since you're saying that Zed hitting his spells in MELEE range is sooo much harder than Syndra hitting all her spells. Or that Kata or Akali don't have Syndra's burst potential. Just...Wow.

I didn't say Zed landing his spells was harder. I said that, for his burst to match Syndra, he would need to land a perfect rotation. Like, his opponent would have to be really stupid to let him pull it off level of perfect rotation.

Assuming Katarina pulls a full Q-E-W-R rotation, her main target will take 1325 +375% AP damage.

Akali, given the same 2.5 seconds, can pull 2 Rs, 1 Q and 1 E. 890+220% AP damage, plus the bonus magic damage from her passive once or twice.

Syndra's combination, Q-E-W-R or Q-W-E-R or what have you, so long as R comes to 1475 +259% AP damage.

Akali can't even touch that. Katarina can out-scale it if Syndra isn't packing more than 2 spheres, at which point Syndra will deal 1835-2015 +299-319% AP damage (note I said packing, as in she prepares for the fight with spheres that don't hit anyone; if she gets enough time to hit someone with two spheres, it would be similar effect, but less bursty).

"But she has higher--"

Scaling, yes, 56-76% higher scaling, but that difference of 510-690 base damage means that Katarina would need to be packing 670-1232 AP to match Syndra.

So I was wrong in a sense; Katarina almost keeps up with Syndra.

I'm actually. Also you're completely royally retarded if you think Yi, freakin' YI, is more viable than Yasuo or Tryndamere. I'm sorry, I can't do this anymore. Get back to me after you hit lvl 30. Or stop using drugs, either of those.

I've been level 30 since before Season 1. I've kept up with game mechanics and balance for years. I'll gladly debate with you if you want to argue about balance, but ad hominem never helps. If the only response you can give is "stop doing drugs," maybe you've run out of arguments and should find something stronger than a dehydrated wishbone to hold up your arguments.

Good day, serf.

A Tall JokeFeb 4, 20154 votes

I agree for the most part but 3 quick points:

Energy champions should have windows of opportunity (as riot would call them) where their skills aren't readily available that allow for good engages. Currently, there are so many energy regeneration methods on champions that, coupled with low cooldowns on energy champs (which I think is some sort of decision making paradigm where you can use most of your skills at any given point but you need to ration your energy in combos. It doesn't work.) don't actually create those windows of opportunity. This makes it really difficult to make good engages on Energy champions based on either cooldown or resource availability.
Scaling. One would assume that champions that have a tougher early game and are resource-gated should inevitably outscale or become stronger in some way than champions without those resource limitations. Currently, that isn't really the case. Energy/Resource-less champions tend to have similar utility (Lee Sin, Kennen) or damage (Katarina, Zed, Yasuo). So Energy/Manaless champions get a better early game and scale well into late game (for the most part).
You say they give up something for it but, to be honest (no hostility intended) I'm not seeing it. The only consistently lost thing by resourceless champions is range. Everything else, they seem to have fine degrees of. Maybe individually, sure, skills are a bit weaker but if you group them up, they usually combo into something far more powerful (Katarina's passive makes up for her subpar W for example).

You're probably right that re-mana-gating mana champions was a good decision. But the problem is that that's how mana champions were able to compete (bar a few cases like Fizz) with the non-mana champions. And they had to do so by spending gold on an item which didn't increase their damage all that much (although the CDR is REALLY nice on some champs). I'm not going to argue resourceless champions need to be nerfed but I think most mana champions deserve some compensatory buffs if they're actually going to be mana gated.

MajorPain9Feb 4, 20155 votes

Name one that suffers from those so called restrictions besides shen?

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20152 votes

Actually, what I named was the postulate around which manaless champions are supposed to be balanced. They are supposed to be balanced that way.

So it would fall to you to prove that manaless champions do not suffer in any way whatsoever. Please, show me a manaless champion whose kit does not pay for being manaless in any way, and is undeniably stronger than any mana-based equivalent.

MajorPain9Feb 5, 20153 votes

Easy. You have Energy. Mages don't. They have to invest in actual items to make use of there kit. Energy users do not.

Do you have to pay? In a very renewable resource, that allows you to immediately begin your buildpath of your desire. No manaless champion besides Ryze can do that.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No manaless champion besides Ryze can do that.

Once again, I don't get an argument in return. I get more evidence that I will have more luck finding intelligent life away from planet Earth.

I already covered the fact that Manaless champions have laning strength due to not managing Mana, meaning they have freedom to cast their spells. In return for that, however, manaless champions have weaknesses in other areas, such as range/AoE, damage, utility or base cooldown. It also narrows down build choices, excluding some items that could otherwise be very strong choices.

Okay, since you said Energy, I'll just say you're talking Zed mid (because I haven't heard a single person in this thread complaining about Kennen). Zed's weakness--how he pays for being manaless--is in having much lower lane threat than other champions. When Zed does not have his ultimate, he can't win an equal-level trade. And his ultimate does have counteraction available against it, whether or not it's unorthodox compared to countering, say, Katarina's ultimate.

Kobila2000Feb 6, 20151 votes

Syndra's ultimate also has counteraction available against it. As does Malzahar's. And Vel'Koz's. And Xerath's. Heck, if you have Zhonya's, you can negate the majority of ultimates. All of them use mana as well. When most mana-using mages don't have ultimates, they can't burst people. And ultimates are not only limited by cooldown, but mana as well (most of them being the priciest ability in the kit). You are still failing to provide in what way manaless champions suffer, ways that do not also apply to mana-using champions.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 6, 20151 votes

Oh, I'm sorry, are we falling back to that ancient argument?

"CC works on everyone, stop saying use CC to counter them!"

Kobila2000Feb 6, 20151 votes

You do realize that avoiding to provide any counter-argument once your argument gets ripped to shreds doesn't make you look any better?

JustMyBassCannonFeb 6, 20152 votes

What you don't realize was that my saying, "Zed's ultimate has counter-play" was not the core of my argument. It was an afterthought, tossed in at the end. And you decided to focus on that one thing, as if it was everything I was arguing.

You didn't focus on the fact that he has only two directly offensive spells, both of which have acceptable scaling for individual spells, but don't have a combined effect stronger than what any other mage or assassin can return in spades. You didn't focus on the fact that his kit is basically powerless without his ultimate. No, you focused on the last detail, as if it was the core of my argument, instead of point B of point 2.

JC DarkOmenFeb 4, 20153 votes

Name 3 Mana AP mids that have an advantage over (I was gonna say Zed but that's too easy) Katarina simply because of range, radius, or cooldown.

And let's not bother bringing damage into the convo, because that's not even true. No one is saying freakin Garen is op.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 20151 votes

Xerath, Lux, Zyra and Ziggs all have range advantages against Katarina. They are all able to hold her at arm's length and slap her with spells without retaliation whatsoever. To add insult to injury, while Katarina has no CC, all of them have soft and/or hard CC. Did I mention they also have much more AoE?

Brand, Syndra and Leblanc all have burst potential that rivals Katarina, assuming nobody interrupts her ultimate and she keeps in close range for the whole channel.

Swain and Cassiopeia have cooldowns of 10 seconds or less with their basic spells, putting them within the region of Katarina's cooldowns. Ryze has low base cooldowns, and a passive that reduces his cooldowns by 1 second every time he casts spells, and his core spell has a base 3.5 second cooldown, so his effective cooldowns are extremely low.

Next time, try to leave a dent.

JC DarkOmenFeb 4, 20153 votes

Here's the thing though: they will all lose trades against her if she decides to retaliate unless they're under turret. Kat can use Shunpo to dodge most of the harrass, and walk away from the rest (especally Ziggs). As soon as she's out of whatever cc they used, Kat can qwe (or is it qew? whatever) in and win the trade like that. Because they all use mana, they can't poke slap Kat around forever, whereas after they've exhausted most of their pool, Kat can pop a couple health pots and start bullying them. And if you wanna talk AoE, have you seen her ult? 3 second pentakill.

Brand and Syndra do not beat Katarina because of burst, they beat her because they stun her for 2 seconds in the middle of her combo. And Brand can't one shot her, he has to rely on his ult to hit a couple times, and she's gonna shunpo onto him and away from minions. Leblanc is a fair point.

Swain simply outtanks Kat, and if he doesn't watch his mana Kat will win. Ryze is used mostly as a top laner but if he does go mid he doesn't have the damage to kill her; it's a farm lane. Cass is somewhat of a fair point, because I don't know her mana costs. I'm fairly certain though, since she also stacks mana, that before lvl 6 she can't spam her twin fangs too much, meaning if Kat bides her time and takes boots+3 and dodges Cass' spells she'll survive pre 6 and win at 6.

Because these champs use mana, what could easily be a kill lane turns into a farm lane unless Kat is bad. Because Kat doesn't use mana what could be a farm lane for other champs becomes a hit-lv-6-and-kill lane.