Ahri doesn't need nerfs because her insanely good winrate with huge pickrate doesn't mean anything

VDc0zCqe0w·Aug 7, 2015·44 votes·2,697 views

Meanwhile Zyra and Sona having good winrates with insanely lower pickrate CLEARLY means they are both fine and underestimated.

Make up your fucking mind Gameplay & Balance, if the first is true then the second is false and viceversa.

EDIT: it looks like people are misunderstanding: i'm not asking for Ahri nerfs nor for Zyra/Sona buffs (well i think they deserve those but that's another story), i'm just pointing out how winrates don't mean jack shit most of the times.

72 Comments

Vistha KaiAug 7, 201517 votes

You see, the thing is unpopular champions have static and dedicated playerbase, so not having a high winrate is uncommon.

However when a champion with a high pickrate has also a high winrate, then balance problems begin.

Does that mean I think Ahri is OP? Hell no. Her MS bonus is frustrating, but that's really about it.

VDc0zCqe0wAug 7, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARXmOMl8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-07T23:36:05.617+0000)

You see, the thing is unpopular champions have static and dedicated playerbase, so not having a high winrate is uncommon.

But boards always told me they are just underestimated and anyone could pick them and win any game!!11!1!!1one!

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20157 votes

Ayy, lmao.

Zyra requires more skill than Azir will ever do.

junglerboy16Aug 8, 20156 votes

I don't understand the down vote, it's actually true. Much more telegraphed abilities, easier to dodge skill shot, no mobility, shorter range, plants aren't invulnerable, similar level of micro required (at least when not played as a mindless CC bot).

manbearswineAug 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand the down vote, it's actually true. Much more telegraphed abilities, easier to dodge skill shot, no mobility, shorter range, plants aren't invulnerable, similar level of micro required (at least when not played as a mindless CC bot).

Because weaker doesn't mean harder.

Yes,winning a game on zyra is harder than winning a game on azir,but azirs kit has much more potential,tricks to it and need to be aware of your capabilities than zyra,azir is definitely the harder of the two to master,and requires more skill to play to his full potential.

I've played zyra a lot,I get that people love to exaggerate the difficulty of things they play,but that doesn't make them true,zyra is easier to utilize than azir,he is legitimately a high skillcap champion,whereas zyra is of medium difficulty(I'd say ahri is of medium difficulty as well).

Vistha KaiAug 8, 20151 votes

I played Zyra maybe 10 times total and I don't even own her. It's not bias over my favourite champion.

On the other hand I played Azir much more and the only difficult thing about him is right clicking on a slowed target - and that's sooooo hard. Then there is the WQE combo, but there is no depth to it, just press all three buttons in the order.

manbearswineAug 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARXmOMl8,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-08T19:09:26.631+0000)

I played Zyra maybe 10 times total and I don't even own her. It's not bias over my favourite champion.

On the other hand I played Azir much more and the only difficult thing about him is right clicking on a slowed target - and that's sooooo hard. Then there is the WQE combo, but there is no depth to it, just press all three buttons in the order.

Azir simply has more meaningful choices than zyra does.

Vistha KaiAug 8, 20151 votes

Press W, press Q, right click on the enemy champion to make their player rage due to lack of meaningful counterplay other than near-instant mobility spells.

That's Azir.

manbearswineAug 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARXmOMl8,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-08T22:26:37.522+0000)

Press W, press Q, right click on the enemy champion to make their player rage due to lack of meaningful counterplay other than near-instant mobility spells.

That's Azir.

Zyra is basically the same just that she first presses q,then w.

Look first of all yes,zyra is weaker,which can give the illusion of a harder champion,but:

Zyra's play pattern is rather simple,nor do her combos require a lot of mechanical skill(same for azir ),however:

Zyra in lane will try to poke with q-w,maybe try to all in with e->combo,azir more or less the same,but for azir to jump on his target requires more commitment(yes zyra blows a defensive ability,but azir blows a defensive ability AND jumps to his target),out of laning phase zyra will constantly take detours,azir...depends on the matchup,then zyra might go for a pick with her e,or poke,both from a decent distance(Okay,not decent,but that is more about her being weak than hard),and when a teamfight starts she will just throw q on what she can and e on what is going at her,then ult,azir on the other hand needs to decide for an offensive or defensive use of his ult(in the middle of a fight),yes he is stronger but he also has more meaningful decisions that zyra does,zyra is medium on the skillcap scale because she still needs to know how to postion herself and how to lane on a vulnerable champion(facerolling trashfox for example doesn't give a fuck for either of these),but these are general skills,so she is rather easy to pick up,azir requires more awareness of his burst/survivability,which means you need more practice on him specifically.

Vistha KaiAug 8, 20151 votes

Except that Azir doesn't need to "all-in" anybody, since his "poke" halves people's HP bars.

You see, Zyra gives you a meaningful counterplay at every, but point-blank range, while Azir will always hit his Q, unless the player mentally incapable of breathing.

Decision-making? Azir? lol. If you have 110 mana just send people to the base with QW-AA-AA combo that requires no setup or any skill with the champion.

Troll for TrumpAug 8, 20152 votes

zyra isn't hard to play. Neither is riven. Will the riven and zyra mains stop crying about "OMG SO HARD TO PLAY(blah blah animation cancelling)" Zyra is as hard to play as heimer, riven isn't that hard to paly at all; facerolling and animation cancelling.Ez.

inb4 circlejerkers downvote

Vistha KaiAug 8, 20151 votes

I didn't say Zyra is hard to play, but harder to play than Azir.

junglerboy16Aug 8, 20151 votes

Ok, I play a lot of Heimer, and Zyra is a lot harder than Heimer.

Also, I don't main Zyra or Riven, so your point is null.

Troll for TrumpAug 9, 20151 votes

That's cuz zyra sucks right now. If they balanced the power levels out, she would be on the same mechanical skill level. The difference in "skill" is because Zyra's in such a bad spot in the meta right now

GloriousKaiserAug 8, 201516 votes

Circlejerk about Circlejerk.

We have come full... Circle..... jerk.

Slamurai JackAug 7, 20157 votes

I mean, they are both fine and underestimated and Ahri could definitely stand to be nerfed. That's logically consistent right?

LadyRenlyAug 7, 20157 votes

Ahri is good and well rounded. I don't think she's overbearing or unfun to lane against, and she's relatively straightforward. I think this board just loves to complain about any champ that remotely sees play

A Miss FortuneAug 7, 20153 votes

My main issue is how easy it is for her to hit you with her Q. A good Ahri player buys a mana item and just pokes you down until she can all-in you. I mean clearly you can dodge it, but the hitbox for some reason is really big on top of It having fair range (not long range, but It's not like melee.).

Once Ahri hits you with her charm she pretty much kills you because of how easy it is for her to hit her Q on top of you walking towards her.

NineTailedMysticAug 8, 20151 votes

The hitbox actually seems to increase at max range for a moment. I've played Ahri mirrors where I got hit and where I've hit other people and say "That shouldn't have hit me/them"

Jeanne fan clubAug 8, 20151 votes

You see, the thing is that its your fault for getting hit by charm. Its easier to dodge Ahri's Q by walking perpendicular to it. Also Ahri's Q is shorter range than a lot of other mid mage abilities. The thing with Ahri is that if you die to her, its your fault, and your fault only. She has a lot of skillshots that are easily dodged. Also It helps to play an oppressive laner against her because she is weak to poke and targeted abilities pre 6. Try playing a swain or annie into her if you are having problems. A lot of people don't know how to play against Ahri so they come to the boards and complain when they get outplayed.

LaceUp23Aug 7, 20156 votes

I'm pretty sure only Ahri mains are saying she is fine.

Ancestor007Aug 8, 20152 votes

You're wrong then.

Jeanne fan clubAug 8, 20154 votes

yeah, her winrate is a fluke, if you go on champion.gg she is ranked about 10th for everything else

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle

manbearswineAug 8, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Trianglez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARXmOMl8,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-08-08T01:50:03.278+0000)

yeah, her winrate is a fluke, if you go on champion.gg she is ranked about 10th for everything else

Except that the sample size is massive(25k games) and she has consistently had this winrate in previous samples as well.

52426480_DELAug 7, 20153 votes

Yeah that insane 53.5% win rate...

Warwick

60% and then we talk.

VDc0zCqe0wAug 7, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that insane 53.5% win rate...

60% and then we talk.

you couldn't nerf him any further, let the poor dog alone, he has been repeatedly smashed

Remlap1223Aug 8, 20151 votes

Oh trust me, it can be done.

item 3070 Sona

The Yetii RiderAug 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARXmOMl8,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-08-07T23:35:13.961+0000)

you couldn't nerf him any further, let the poor dog alone, he has been repeatedly smashed

Couldn't nerf him any further? Challenge accepted!

Let's see...Warwick's Q no longer bulk heals him. Instead, it heals him for a slightly larger amount than on live, but over six seconds, and it replaces (does not stack with) his passive.

Warwick's W only applies to himself now (AOE Attack speed steroids OP). In exchange, while his W is active he gets two procs of his passive per hit (again, doesn't stack with his Q)

Warwick's E can no longer be turned off and the opponent gets a directional arrow whenever they are in range that tells them where Warwick is coming from.

Warwick's ultimate now suppresses for only 0.8 seconds, applies on-hit effects 3 times instead of 5, and applies spell vamp instead of lifesteal (does not grant spell vamp or lifesteal)

Chespin2013Aug 8, 20153 votes

As much as I hate laning against Ahri I have to agree. She's not as powerful as a lot of people make her out to be. Her damage was already nerfed a jack ton when DFG went away and also her spells were nerfed too. People should look into account that win rates don't mean anything all the time. On champion.gg Warwick has the highest win rate for junglers does that mean he needs a nerf? No it doesn't his kit is old and stale and got nerfed to the ground in patch 4.20. He is so easy to play my grandma could be a master at playing him if I gave a hr or so explaining how to play him. He doesn't even have a presence in the game till level 6 with his ultimate. His only form of gap closure as a jungler which is fairly weak. If a champion like Warwick has such a high win rate than why isn't he played in pro play? Because he is trash in terms of competitive and that anything can work in soloq. Hell you can win games with soraka top, jungle alister, and adc rengar if you know what your doing with a champion.

Thresh Outta FuxAug 8, 20153 votes

You have to look at Win Rate vs Popularity.

The more popular a champ, the more bad players are picking that champion.

Which means that other champions who have low pick rates with high win rates (EX. Malzahar) are only played by their mains, AKA the people who have spent time, money, and energy far beyond that of the average player to be skilled at that champion.

If anyone can pick up a champion, and roflstomp with them, then the champion is too strong. It's that simple. Players shouldn't be rewarded for inexperience.

TL;DR

Anyone who picks Ahri can win easily without proper knowledge of her kit and skills, without the practice. That is what makes her a problem. The only reason this doesn't happen with the other champions you mentioned is because if you don't practice them, you can't do well.

Celio Hogane HDAug 7, 20152 votes

Most of the time the balance is about nerfing popular champs so unpopular champs are picked more.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 7, 20153 votes

Then they act surprised when nobody else likes seeing their favorite champion all the time and wonder why people want them nerfed. Looking at you Victor mains.

Jungle Lux GodAug 8, 20152 votes

Winrates don't mean balance.

Zyra and Sona having low pickrates means that mains of the champion are largely the only ones playing that champ. Them having high winrates suggest they are good when a dedicated main is playing them.

Ahri having a higher a higher pick rate means that she's deemed as pretty strong, so in addition to mains of the champion playing her you will also have freelo train freeloaders (disclaimer: I do not view Ahri as a freelo champion) that may or may not know how to play Ahri playing Ahri because they think that she's really strong. How she gets such a high winrate is beyond me.

Jeanne fan clubAug 8, 20152 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle

Sure those are just plat stats but the only thing in the single digits for role placement is win rate and play rate. It really seems like her win rate is a fluke.

AdanChristoAug 8, 20152 votes

why the fuck is it that when a good champ is available, they get nerfed? I HATE NERFING it ruins everything

Dr PoroAug 8, 20156 votes

Because if one champion is too good, they are oppressive for other champs, reducing the diversity.

Dr PoroAug 8, 20152 votes

The problem is: You hit all abilities, she just heals it all back. She hits one Q, GG better back or get dived. She doesn't even need to land her charm to kill. Waveclear, poke, burst, mobility, more mobility, sustain, CC.

What's her weakness exactly?

ReshiKillimAug 8, 20152 votes

I see People complaining about laning against Ahri so much.. Yet never see the complaints on how oppressive Yorick is.

Ahri is honestly balanced, as she is utterly butchered by certain midlaners. Do you see an Ahri player happy to lane against a Talon, Lee, or Katarina who can dodge her combo by just pressing one button?

Yes, Lee mid is a thing and it's actually a hard lane for Ahri. He can easily dodge her combos, poke back, and he has counters to her high mobility. Katarina and Talon can just press E to land behind her, thus dodging her skillshots. And what is an Ahri going to do when she's just missed two abilities, when the enemy is suddenly in "Smash your face in" range?

Her pick/win rate is high because she's generally a safe pick. She has escapes, some sustain, poke and some nice damage. But when she's up against a lane that is bad for her, she can't do jack.

Jeanne fan clubAug 8, 20152 votes

Swain and Annie are also very good picks against Ahri. People refuse to actually look at Ahri's weakpoints and prefer to complain instead of getting better. Ahri is weak to poke and oppresive lane bullies pre 6, and targeted abilities and cc for the rest of the game. She can only trade with her Q as her W has short range and she cannot hit her E because of minions. You can dodge her Q and E so there is easy counter play to her, and dying to her is your fault for being counter played. I really wish people would stop complaining for no reason. Her win and pick rate are high but she is ranked poorly for about everything else

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle

(stats for only plat+)

1000angrybeesAug 7, 20151 votes

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but while extremely low pick rates with high win rates mean that there generally isn't enough statistical value to actually assess how strong a champ is, and how there's generally much more information with higher percentages of games (higher pick rate), isn't there almost a complete lack of information regarding outside factors? I've lost probably hundreds of games due to things outside of my control than myself as the problem. (and I'm not saying I haven't lost games because I played bad. I have bad games just like anyone else)

Talking about shit like rage quitters, AFK's, sudden disconnects, lag/lag spikes, bad team comps, good team comps, bad team comps vs good team comps, Area and Location, Ping, Internet Service Provider, even coming down to the person playing themselves (age, attitude, personality, etc)... lot of (at least somewhat) unquantifiable info that goes into games.

But coming to Ahri herself, when you consider the fact that Ahri tends to be a generalist in multiple areas, it's no wonder she does so well. I think if they tuned the Q movement speed and adjusted her ult at later ranks a bit, she'd be golden.

VDc0zCqe0wAug 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but while extremely low pick rates with high win rates mean that there generally isn't enough statistical value to actually assess how strong a champ is, and how there's generally much more information with higher percentages of games (higher pick rate), isn't there almost a complete lack of information regarding outside factors? I've lost probably hundreds of games due to things outside of my control than myself as the problem. (and I'm not saying I haven't lost games because I played bad. I have bad games just like anyone else)

Talking about shit like rage quitters, AFK's, sudden disconnects, lag/lag spikes, bad team comps, good team comps, bad team comps vs good team comps, Area and Location, Ping, Internet Service Provider, even coming down to the person playing themselves (age, attitude, personality, etc)... lot of (at least somewhat) unquantifiable info that goes into games.

But coming to Ahri herself, when you consider the fact that Ahri tends to be a generalist in multiple areas, it's no wonder she does so well. I think if they tuned the Q movement speed and adjusted her ult at later ranks a bit, she'd be golden.

this topic is mostly to prove how stupid arguments about winrates are, i'm not asking for nerfs nor for buffs (well i think Sona and Zyra are useless but that's another topic)

you just have no idea how many times people say Zyra is fine "cuz high winrate!!111" nevermind the fact that she got 1.5% pickrate and such

1000angrybeesAug 8, 20152 votes

I don't actually want Ahri to get nerfed because she never actually seems oppressive or Anti-fun (and somehow I almost never see her? even tho she has that pickrate). Nor do I think that winrates mean everything. I was trying to allude to that but it probably got lost in there lol

manbearswineAug 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but while extremely low pick rates with high win rates mean that there generally isn't enough statistical value to actually assess how strong a champ is,

it depends how you look at it,generally comparing it to a coin toss is decent(margin of error= 50%/sqrt(number of games)),but that just gives you the margin of error for the winrate,but winrate isn't power,for example some champions have a more dedicated playerbase(that should increase winrate),or a pickrate so low one might expect that people aren't as familiar at playing against them,or perhaps that they are picked against very specific things.

And then you have things like amumu,his pickrate isn't low,his winrate is decent,and his playerbase isn't very dedicated,but is he really op? I mean his aoe damage is great against solo q mentality because people don't feel like adapting(by splitpushing or looking for picks,or maybe just making a poke comp),but if you nerf champions for things like that,you are basically telling people not to adapt.

Mind you ahri has no meaningful weaknesses,for her she really is simply op,there really isn't much the enemy team can do as far as adapting their playstyle,maybe hoping to counterpick,but that's far from a meaningful weakness,it's not that she can't be beaten,she is just consistently a strong pick,and too strong at that.

LuggAug 8, 20151 votes

I agree that win rates can be deceptive, but when a champion has one of the highest win rates thru multiple metas, that champion needs nerfing for sure.

kaykalosAug 8, 20151 votes

Combination of numbers means something, one alone number nop, u need popularity/competitive wr/popularity solo q, if all numbers agree u cant say winrates don't mean shit . At competitive popularity is more important than win ratio, but i dont know how more important (2 times 1.2 times 1.5......), , because if a champion get picked as counterpick only 6 times u cant say OP 5/6