Pyke’s regen needs a actual cost.

The thigh guy·Sep 5, 2019·27 votes·13,561 views

And no. Needing to be unseen is not a cost. And neither is losing health when he’s gaining it back.

The main weakness to engage supports has always been poke. Then this pos comes out and says “nah bruh” and just regens his entire health bar every time he gets low.

My suggestion?

Make his regen consume mana on every tic of health health regen.

Something like 30 mana per tic.

This let’s him keep his current power level (which is still way to damn high tbh) but makes poke an actual weakness again due to him actually needing to spend a resource to do it.

105 Comments

SyrileSep 5, 201919 votes

Deletion. The cost of Pyke should be deletion. He needs to be removed from the game.

The thigh guySep 5, 201911 votes

{quoted}

Deletion. The cost of Pyke should be deletion. He needs to be removed from the game.

While I do agree, we can only dream.

Sinister AnubisSep 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Deletion. The cost of Pyke should be deletion. He needs to be removed from the game.

iv yet to see riot do that the first champion that should of been deleted was zed then yasuo now i see pyke and morde as well as toxic kits.

3TWarriorSep 5, 20192 votes

Morde's kit is fairly standard. He went back to his original design, only now with crowd control (which was what was asked for the most in his old kit)

I'm not sure if he's a lane bully or not though. His excessive wave-clear played the biggest part in his old design's laning phase

Sinister AnubisSep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Morde's kit is fairly standard. He went back to his original design, only now with crowd control (which was what was asked for the most in his old kit)

I'm not sure if he's a lane bully or not though. His excessive wave-clear played the biggest part in his old design's laning phase

Its his Ulti that is crazy and the fact he has a range CC magic pen ability that pulls you. The fact you have to build QSS to counter that ulti its really insane.

3TWarriorSep 6, 20191 votes

technically you don't have to, but you do have to expect him to use it. it trades 1 champion for 1 champion

the concept itself is fine but the duration is where it hits hard. it's double the length of other crowd control

getting vision on morde (or any surprise advantage champion) is essential, though the effect would be far more reduced if the duration or size of his ultimate were changed

Sinister AnubisSep 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

technically you don't have to, but you do have to expect him to use it. it trades 1 champion for 1 champion

the concept itself is fine but the duration is where it hits hard. it's double the length of other crowd control

getting vision on morde (or any surprise advantage champion) is essential, though the effect would be far more reduced if the duration or size of his ultimate were changed

It's still problematic not even supports can help you. Once in his ulti he just runs you down. Hes to tanky bursty has heals and shields with CC that lowers your mr.

3TWarriorSep 6, 20192 votes

slows? run away, crowd control

mordekaiser is not really known for his movement speed unless he runs ghost

most classes would be on even terms if not outright outrun him. Probably the only class that could not is tanks, but tanks come with lots of crowd control in most cases, or can sustain long enough to survive

Sinister AnubisSep 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

slows? run away, crowd control

mordekaiser is not really known for his movement speed unless he runs ghost

most classes would be on even terms if not outright outrun him. Probably the only class that could not is tanks, but tanks come with lots of crowd control in most cases, or can sustain long enough to survive

And yet hes still S+ teir pooping all over people. With a decent ban rate.

3TWarriorSep 7, 20192 votes

He's S+ because of the displacement. The higher up you go, the easier it is to coordinate your team and displacements are even more powerful in lower divisions

BârdSep 6, 20192 votes

Hourglass also works.

If you use it during the cast time, his ult goes on CD without banishing anybody.

Same deal with invisibility, most untargetable effects, and unstoppable effects.

Sinister AnubisSep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hourglass also works.

If you use it during the cast time, his ult goes on CD without banishing anybody.

Same deal with invisibility, most untargetable effects, and unstoppable effects.

Pretty sure all of what you listed is bugs that is not intentional if what you are saying is true. There is no reason someones ulti should go on cooldown without the effect taking place.

BârdSep 7, 20192 votes

It's stupid, but it's not a bug.

Morde's ult instantly applies a slow, then after 0.5 seconds it banishes and steals stats. If you aren't an eligible target at that point, the ult is cancelled, but since it already did something it goes on CD.

The same way Vlad can use his pool to dodge Veigar R, a lucky Leblanc passive proc can let you dodge Morde R.

LordGeovanniSep 7, 20192 votes

cast time too short and animation too indisticnt cant see it in an open lane none the less in a massive team fight

MagearnaSep 7, 20194 votes

This has been said about a lot of champions before him. It's never happened.

It needs to happen this time. So tired of this insufferable prick giving everyone the "u mad bro" meme

KFCeytronSep 5, 20197 votes

On top of 30 mana being an insane number that would drain Pyke's entire health bar after a single engage, that heal is Pyke's only defensive ability/steroid to deal with being poked as a melee squishy who can't even gain bonus health. Taric has extra armor with W and a heal with Q, Leona has armor/MR with W, Braum has armor/MR with W and an intercept with E, Thresh has armor with passive stacks and a shield with W, and so on. Most of those abilities can apply to allies, as well, while Pyke can only heal himself and it doesn't help him during an engage.

SyrileSep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

On top of 30 mana being an insane number that would drain Pyke's entire health bar after a single engage, that heal is Pyke's only defensive ability/steroid to deal with being poked as a melee squishy who can't even gain bonus health. Taric has extra armor with W and a heal with Q, Leona has armor/MR with W, Braum has armor/MR with W and an intercept with E, Thresh has armor with passive stacks and a shield with W, and so on. Most of those abilities can apply to allies, as well, while Pyke can only heal himself and it doesn't help him during an engage.

Which of those champions does damage like Pyke does, while having stealth, scaling on Lethality of all things? and having an outright execute that is resettable and gives not only extra gold, but even boosts the gold beyond 2 kills per kill?

KFCeytronSep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Which of those champions does damage like Pyke does, while having stealth, scaling on Lethality of all things? and having an outright execute that is resettable and gives not only extra gold, but even boosts the gold beyond 2 kills per kill?

Can Pyke provide his allies with extra armor? Can he heal them? Can he gain extra MR/armor even for himself? Can he dash an ally to him? Can he intercept projectiles?

Different champions are different. That heal is what Pyke needs to not be instantly shoved out of lane every time he shows up.

The point of the Lethality scaling is to stop him from building armor/MR, the resetting execute is a skillshot, and the gold is intended to allow him to take kills without putting the carry behind (although the number probably still needs tweaking). All of these are separate issues from the one at hand, though.

SyrileSep 7, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Can Pyke provide his allies with extra armor? Can he heal them? Can he gain extra MR/armor even for himself? Can he dash an ally to him? Can he intercept projectiles?

Different champions are different. That heal is what Pyke needs to not be instantly shoved out of lane every time he shows up.

The point of the Lethality scaling is to stop him from building armor/MR, the resetting execute is a skillshot, and the gold is intended to allow him to take kills without putting the carry behind (although the number probably still needs tweaking). All of these are separate issues from the one at hand, though.

The problem with this is that none of those champions has both ridiculous damage, and sustain. Mixed with all of his other overloaded kit and massively broken ultimate. They have a role. Defender. He literally functions as a limitless sustain, super safe, assassin that is also a built-in funnel comp. Clear difference in power level in that kit.

KFCeytronSep 7, 20194 votes

{quoted}

The problem with this is that none of those champions has both ridiculous damage, and sustain. Mixed with all of his other overloaded kit and massively broken ultimate. They have a role. Defender. He literally functions as a limitless sustain, super safe, assassin that is also a built-in funnel comp. Clear difference in power level in that kit.

Pyke doesn't have ridiculous damage. As an assassin support, he has more CC than a plain assassin, but also less damage. He's unlikely to solo kill anything. Those who want a support with damage tend to go with a mage, like Brand or Zyra. A lot of Pyke's power is rolled into chaining his ult.

Pyke has sustain from champion damage taken, and only when out of sight. Minions, turrets, Baron, etc. don't give him grey health, and he can only turn that into actual health if he manages to flee a fight before getting killed.

OleandervineSep 5, 20196 votes

{quoted}

On top of 30 mana being an insane number that would drain Pyke's entire health bar after a single engage, that heal is Pyke's only defensive ability/steroid to deal with being poked as a melee squishy who can't even gain bonus health. Taric has extra armor with W and a heal with Q, Leona has armor/MR with W, Braum has armor/MR with W and an intercept with E, Thresh has armor with passive stacks and a shield with W, and so on. Most of those abilities can apply to allies, as well, while Pyke can only heal himself and it doesn't help him during an engage.

Comparing Pyke's passive gray health to Taric is marginal, and comparing it to Braum/Leona is dumb because both of their bonus stats are tied to abilities and are temporary. The major problem when trying to compare gray health and the sheer lane sustain potential he has overs someone like Taric or even Tahm Kench, is that you can poke pretty much everyone else out of lane eventually. You cannot really poke Pyke away unless you force him to take turret shot. If you poke Kench enough, he's got to either blow his shield, or flee to heal, but he cannot do both, and he also doesn't have nearly any of the raw damage output or CC as Pyke does. Even Taric, who you make a comparison to, can be poked out of lane entirely, especially so against an AP opponent, and also, he doesn't have nearly any of the raw damage output or CC Pyke has. The problem with Pyke is that he can do too many things, and do too many things VERY GOOD, and he's also incredibly mobile. So he's either got to have good sustain, and less mobility, or keep his mobility and take a blow to his sustain. As it sits now, he's got MASSIVE team CC, large damage output, and his gold sharing is just astronomically overpowered, and all of this on top of his sustain and mobility. Something has to give, because he's not a healthy champion if he's so capable of doing all of this while also lingering in the lane for an abnormal amount of time so he can gain more XP while he's forced his opponents to recall because of poke. Pyke is absurd, and he's got to have his kneecaps blown out, and hopefully before they lock in World's.

KFCeytronSep 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Comparing Pyke's passive gray health to Taric is marginal, and comparing it to Braum/Leona is dumb because both of their bonus stats are tied to abilities and are temporary. The major problem when trying to compare gray health and the sheer lane sustain potential he has overs someone like Taric or even Tahm Kench, is that you can poke pretty much everyone else out of lane eventually. You cannot really poke Pyke away unless you force him to take turret shot. If you poke Kench enough, he's got to either blow his shield, or flee to heal, but he cannot do both, and he also doesn't have nearly any of the raw damage output or CC as Pyke does. Even Taric, who you make a comparison to, can be poked out of lane entirely, especially so against an AP opponent, and also, he doesn't have nearly any of the raw damage output or CC Pyke has. The problem with Pyke is that he can do too many things, and do too many things VERY GOOD, and he's also incredibly mobile. So he's either got to have good sustain, and less mobility, or keep his mobility and take a blow to his sustain. As it sits now, he's got MASSIVE team CC, large damage output, and his gold sharing is just astronomically overpowered, and all of this on top of his sustain and mobility. Something has to give, because he's not a healthy champion if he's so capable of doing all of this while also lingering in the lane for an abnormal amount of time so he can gain more XP while he's forced his opponents to recall because of poke. Pyke is absurd, and he's got to have his kneecaps blown out, and hopefully before they lock in World's.

Taric and Braum can provide those defensive boosts to their allies. Leona's defensive steroid helps her survive longer during an engage.

Pyke is weak to all-in and being CCed. Should he also be weak to poke?

Tahm's kit is a failure that we probably shouldn't be using as a comparison to anything.

Pyke is an assassin support. His gameplay is similar to that of an assassin, except that he trades damage for CC and expects teammates to contribute to kills. Does he need nerfs, particularly to his gold duplication? Is Riot struggling to figure out how to make people play him the way Riot wants them to? Yeah. Will he be nerfed in time for Worlds? Bro, I'm pretty sure he's in this state because of Worlds. He's real flashy and Riot wants him up there with Lee Sin and such.

OleandervineSep 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Taric and Braum can provide those defensive boosts to their allies. Leona's defensive steroid helps her survive longer during an engage.

Pyke is weak to all-in and being CCed. Should he also be weak to poke?

Tahm's kit is a failure that we probably shouldn't be using as a comparison to anything.

Pyke is an assassin support. His gameplay is similar to that of an assassin, except that he trades damage for CC and expects teammates to contribute to kills. Does he need nerfs, particularly to his gold duplication? Is Riot struggling to figure out how to make people play him the way Riot wants them to? Yeah. Will he be nerfed in time for Worlds? Bro, I'm pretty sure he's in this state because of Worlds. He's real flashy and Riot wants him up there with Lee Sin and such.

Absolutely, Pyke should be weak to poke. Literally every other assassin in the game is weak to being mobbed and CC'd as well as poke. Poking down assassins is how you deal with them in the lane, because that's how you force them to play more carefully and impose major risk on their end if they try to all in you with low HP. Why Pyke is allowed to function without this risk, while also providing massive amounts of CC with his engage or exit is beyond me.

KFCeytronSep 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely, Pyke should be weak to poke. Literally every other assassin in the game is weak to being mobbed and CC'd as well as poke. Poking down assassins is how you deal with them in the lane, because that's how you force them to play more carefully and impose major risk on their end if they try to all in you with low HP. Why Pyke is allowed to function without this risk, while also providing massive amounts of CC with his engage or exit is beyond me.

Assassins generally go mid, where they have to deal with poke from one champion, which might not even have decent poke. Bot lane will have at least one ranged champion, and often two. That's what Pyke faces, because - as I said - he's an assassin support. And Riot is doing the best they can to keep him out of every other lane and role.

3TWarriorSep 5, 20193 votes

and champions without significant disengage tend to be assassins favorite snacks? Ordinary assassins have to farm to get experience and items to hold their lane pressure

key difference as a support champion: you don't have to do that

Even then, kill lanes are nothing new, but what goes horribly wrong is his ultimate. EVERY INSTANCE OF FREE GOLD FOR ALLIES HAS BEEN REMOVED IN THE PAST

take for example the "penta on a support" line for his design, "that's around 1125 gold that his team now has that it wouldn't have had otherwise and that's not counting everything he gets in lane for the carry position

KFCeytronSep 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

and champions without significant disengage tend to be assassins favorite snacks? Ordinary assassins have to farm to get experience and items to hold their lane pressure

key difference as a support champion: you don't have to do that

Even then, kill lanes are nothing new, but what goes horribly wrong is his ultimate. EVERY INSTANCE OF FREE GOLD FOR ALLIES HAS BEEN REMOVED IN THE PAST

take for example the "penta on a support" line for his design, "that's around 1125 gold that his team now has that it wouldn't have had otherwise and that's not counting everything he gets in lane for the carry position

Yeah, I don't know if Riot thought this one through enough.

SolarisCorvusSep 6, 20193 votes

yea thats true. but OP's suggestions are just plain idiotic.

What should be done is that pykes regen for levels 1 - 10 should be cut down to like 50 or even 30 percent of its orginal regen rate, that way you can actually get himout of the lane.

Personally i think that pyke should have his base dmg cut in half. make him more team reliant than just burst and kill you by himslef.

The thigh guySep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

On top of 30 mana being an insane number that would drain Pyke's entire health bar after a single engage, that heal is Pyke's only defensive ability/steroid to deal with being poked as a melee squishy who can't even gain bonus health. Taric has extra armor with W and a heal with Q, Leona has armor/MR with W, Braum has armor/MR with W and an intercept with E, Thresh has armor with passive stacks and a shield with W, and so on. Most of those abilities can apply to allies, as well, while Pyke can only heal himself and it doesn't help him during an engage.

And the difference between Pyke and taric is Pyke has a massive base armor and his heal is free.

People like to forget how massive Pyke’s base armor it.

Also so what is it takes him a lot of mana. It takes everyone else a lot of mana.

Nami for example pays almost a 1-1 ratio for her healing to mana.

KFCeytronSep 5, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-09-05T16:37:00.920+0000)

And the difference between Pyke and taric is Pyke has a massive base armor and his heal is free.

People like to forget how massive Pyke’s base armor it.

And yet he's still getting chunked for "his entire health bar" which he then needs to restore without backing constantly. And high-level players pile on even more armor and MR, because he needs it.

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-09-05T16:37:00.920+0000)

Also so what is it takes him a lot of mana. It takes everyone else a lot of mana.

Nami for example pays almost a 1-1 ratio for her healing to mana.

Nami's heal can hit three targets, it scales with the cheap heal and shield power items she usually buys, and she's ranged. This was an awful comparison.

The thigh guySep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

And yet he's still getting chunked for "his entire health bar" which he then needs to restore without backing constantly. And high-level players pile on even more armor and MR, because he needs it.

I wonder why he gets chunked? Hmmmmmm. Could it be for the same reason braum, Leona, taric and to a lesser extent thresh do?

Maybe it’s because the weakness of engage based support always is and always should be poke?

You seem to think my problem is him having sustain. My problem is him having FREE sustain.

[sg-lulu]

KFCeytronSep 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T16:50:18.259+0000)

I wonder why he gets chunked? Hmmmmmm. Could it be for the same reason braum, Leona, taric and to a lesser extent thresh do?

Maybe it’s because the weakness of engage based support always is and always should be poke?

You seem to think my problem is him having sustain. My problem is him having FREE sustain.

[sg-lulu]

It may not cost mana, but it has limitations that Leona/Braum/etc.'s defensive options don't: it only works out of combat, it doesn't reduce the damage he actually takes, and it's only for himself.

The thigh guySep 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

It may not cost mana, but it has limitations that Leona/Braum/etc.'s defensive options don't: it only works out of combat, it doesn't reduce the damage he actually takes, and it's only for himself.

He isn’t required to be out of combat. Only out of sight.

So he can run into any bush and begin healing, or use his w.

And I can already hear the argument “just ward the bush he goes into then.”

item 3147 is a core item on him

And sure. It doesn’t reduce the damage he actually takes (that’s the job of his stupidly high base armor and base health) but it does give him the highest effective hp in the game by LARGE margins. Just for existing.

RalanrSep 5, 20192 votes

He’s not going to have Duskblade in lane, and his camouflage radius is huge.

BugogSep 5, 20193 votes

Taric, Leona, Braum, and Thresh are all tanks.

Pyke is an assassin, but he has more endurance in lane than any of the tank counterparts because of his passive. That is a problem.

I've had plenty of games where I get pyke down to 20% because he got caught out, but he has a safe disengage and was able to be back in lane at high life in seconds. That would push any of the listed tanks completely out of lane to recover.

KFCeytronSep 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Taric, Leona, Braum, and Thresh are all tanks.

Pyke is an assassin, but he has more endurance in lane than any of the tank counterparts because of his passive. That is a problem.

I've had plenty of games where I get pyke down to 20% because he got caught out, but he has a safe disengage and was able to be back in lane at high life in seconds. That would push any of the listed tanks completely out of lane to recover.

The key is that you wouldn't have gotten those tanks down to 20%, because - as tanks - they are more durable. Each one has resistances, shields, or other forms of combat durability in their kit. Not only that, but the only one of those tanks who can't share that durability with a lane partner is Leona.

BugogSep 5, 20193 votes

Akali should've keep the resistances on her shroud because tanks have defensive steroids instead of offensive abilities. Zed should have a lot of passive regen when he casts his shadows because tanks may have shields instead of offensive abilities. Talon should heal up to full when he backs off because tanks may have abilities that help them protect allies instead of offfensive abilities.

Those all sound pretty silly to me. But that's effectively your argument for pyke.

KFCeytronSep 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Akali should've keep the resistances on her shroud because tanks have defensive steroids instead of offensive abilities. Zed should have a lot of passive regen when he casts his shadows because tanks may have shields instead of offensive abilities. Talon should heal up to full when he backs off because tanks may have abilities that help them protect allies instead of offfensive abilities.

Those all sound pretty silly to me. But that's effectively your argument for pyke.

Wow, what a fantastic reductio ad absurdum. Too bad those are all mid assassins rather than bot lane supports, so it's actually a totally worthless argument.

The thigh guySep 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

The key is that you wouldn't have gotten those tanks down to 20%, because - as tanks - they are more durable. Each one has resistances, shields, or other forms of combat durability in their kit. Not only that, but the only one of those tanks who can't share that durability with a lane partner is Leona.

Pyke has the HIGHEST base armor and one of the highest base healths in the game. He is TANKIER than these champions.

His regen litteraly just makes him impossible to punish. Assassins are suppose to be high risk high reward, not ”lul i fucked up, stealth, stun away and regen my entire health bar XD”

KFCeytronSep 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=0002000300000001,timestamp=2019-09-06T00:18:52.434+0000)

Pyke has the HIGHEST base armor and one of the highest base healths in the game. He is TANKIER than these champions.

His regen litteraly just makes him impossible to punish. Assassins are suppose to be high risk high reward, not ”lul i fucked up, stealth, stun away and regen my entire health bar XD”

He has more base armor, and his scalings push him not to build anymore, and he can't gain bonus health. He's supposed to get by on just the health and resistances he has.

Those champions, on the other hand, synergize with armor and health. They have kits with resistances, shields, etc., they can build more resistances and health, and they even often have abilities that directly scale with health or resistances, leading to much higher effective health than Pyke can hope to achieve. All he really has are his bases and grey health.

The thigh guySep 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

He has more base armor, and his scalings push him not to build anymore, and he can't gain bonus health. He's supposed to get by on just the health and resistances he has.

Those champions, on the other hand, synergize with armor and health. They have kits with resistances, shields, etc., they can build more resistances and health, and they even often have abilities that directly scale with health or resistances, leading to much higher effective health than Pyke can hope to achieve. All he really has are his bases and grey health.

Okay? You act like him building damage is a negative, it’s not.

And that makes perfect sense. Can we give adcs more attackspeed so they won’t want to build more of it? That’s what you just said.

KFCeytronSep 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=000200030000000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-06T01:16:38.323+0000)

Okay? You act like him building damage is a negative, it’s not.

And that makes perfect sense. Can we give adcs more attackspeed so they won’t want to build more of it? That’s what you just said.

If there was a type of ADC that couldn't gain offensive stats from attack speed, then yes, it would be reasonable for them to have an appropriate amount pre-planned and built into their base stats. Jhin doesn't gain attack speed from other than level increases, but it's converted into other offensive stats, so he's not an example of that. I don't really see an ADC being planned like that, but perhaps something like Galio might have sort of fit into a niche like that if he wasn't hot garbage in every way. A tank that's actually required to build defensively, and all AP/AD gets converted to MR/armor. Jax sort of has that, but only during his ult, and it's bonus armor, so that's not it. I mean a tank that literally cannot pull a Malphite and jam six wizard hats on his head to one-shot people. Such a champion would need some sort of decent offensive stats to actually be a threat. Mundo is another "close but no cigar" - he can build AP and AD, but if he wants to build offensively he's better off with mpen.

Riot is doing the best they can to force Pyke into building AD assassin items, going bot lane, and supporting. It's more or less working, but it's showing some signs of strain.

Anyway, the point is that Pyke's grey health is his entire defensive capability on a squishy melee support. Making it drain his mana bar would be effectively the same as removing the mechanic entirely, as he'd have to recall anyway to refill his mana.

The thigh guySep 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

If there was a type of ADC that couldn't gain offensive stats from attack speed, then yes, it would be reasonable for them to have an appropriate amount pre-planned and built into their base stats. Jhin doesn't gain attack speed from other than level increases, but it's converted into other offensive stats, so he's not an example of that. I don't really see an ADC being planned like that, but perhaps something like Galio might have sort of fit into a niche like that if he wasn't hot garbage in every way. A tank that's actually required to build defensively, and all AP/AD gets converted to MR/armor. Jax sort of has that, but only during his ult, and it's bonus armor, so that's not it. I mean a tank that literally cannot pull a Malphite and jam six wizard hats on his head to one-shot people. Such a champion would need some sort of decent offensive stats to actually be a threat. Mundo is another "close but no cigar" - he can build AP and AD, but if he wants to build offensively he's better off with mpen.

Riot is doing the best they can to force Pyke into building AD assassin items, going bot lane, and supporting. It's more or less working, but it's showing some signs of strain.

Anyway, the point is that Pyke's grey health is his entire defensive capability on a squishy melee support. Making it drain his mana bar would be effectively the same as removing the mechanic entirely, as he'd have to recall anyway to refill his mana.

sigh Pyke is an assassin. Not a tank. He should not be handed tank stats so he doesn’t build them.

Honestly. I’m done replying to you. You’ve other nothing but delusions.

KFCeytronSep 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=00020003000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-06T02:41:21.044+0000)

sigh Pyke is an assassin. Not a tank. He should not be handed tank stats so he doesn’t build them.

Honestly. I’m done replying to you. You’ve other nothing but delusions.

sigh Pyke is an assassin support but even squishy melee champions would like to live sometimes. The only delusion here is thinking that a melee support should lose the one tool they have to survive against two enemies, at least one of which will probably be ranged. It's about as intelligent as suggesting that Garen's passive should have an "actual cost" of slowing him by 90% while he regenerates. It's a terrible idea, backed up by nothing but rage at not being able to swat Pyke like a fly.

SolarisCorvusSep 6, 20192 votes

i really do feel bad for you man. I hate pyke as much as the next guy but this entire thread takes it to a whole new level of blind hatred.

They dont want pyke balanced they want him removed because of how rage inducing he is. which granted he is at the moment but isnt helpful to actual discussion to game balance.

Dorans PantsSep 6, 20193 votes

funny, I wanted to spitball the exact same idea!

But one of the main problems others have already pointed out is that with the way his passiv works you really don´t want to steal his MP without him having a say in that. Standing out of vision and losing mana sucks, but engaging with W and then losing too much MP along the way so that you have no follow up anymore would so much worse and definitely feel clunky.

to circumvent that pyke would need a way to control how much MP he is willing to convert into HP that is not convoluted. My idea:

make his passiv heal a lot weaker
put the main heal on an additional W cast that can be deactivated without breaking stealth

You could even buff the heal now that it´s more situational and bound to a resource and a cd.

I wanted to add that I don´t really have that much of a problem with pyke, but I can understand that people are frustrated having to fight a hook-support with basically 100% uptime on everything.

FlameHalbrdOkidoSep 7, 20193 votes

Pyke shouldnt get all his health back he should get a PERCENT of it back just like Tahm, tell me why they'd give an assassin better sustain than a tank?

Posui GartSep 7, 20192 votes

Pyke shouldnt get all his health back he should get a PERCENT of it back just like Tahm

Thats literally how the ability works

Pyke also stores 30% − 81% (based on level) of the damage he takes from enemy champions as Grey Health on his health bar, up to 80 (+ 800% bonus AD), with an upper cap of 60% of his maximum health.

FlameHalbrdOkidoSep 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2019-09-07T17:05:46.940+0000)

Thats literally how the ability works

i meant to say less of a percent, closer to what Tahm has

Posui GartSep 7, 20191 votes

Last time I checked, Tahm had way more than 30%

FlameHalbrdOkidoSep 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-07T18:24:31.506+0000)

Last time I checked, Tahm had way more than 30%

tahm doesn't get all of it back tho like how Pyke does, Tahm loses gray heath over time when he regenerates normal health from gray health