Athenes: Lower CDR, Increase AP

Sugar Momma·Jul 18, 2016·103 votes·3,768 views

is in a reasonable place right now but I find myself almost never building it on supports because I end up with too much CDR and and are all so good (with those 3 and your gold item you get 40%, with just two of them, gold item and you get 40%).

The only reason it still has 20% CDR is as a vestige of its days as a mid lane counterpart to .

Now that it's a support item, I think it'd be nice if its CDR was lowered to 10% and its AP increased to 55 or 60 AP (10% CDR is worth ~300 gold, and each AP point is worth 21.75 gold, so you'd need 15-20 AP to break even stats-wise). I think supports would appreciate getting a little extra power for their spells in exchange for CDR they don't need.

95 Comments

Silly NeekoJul 18, 201619 votes

I do agree. The Athena's is very nice for CDR but that is about all for the stats, but supports have an abundance of CDR items already that a 20% CDR Athena's is really kinda overkill without doing a whole lot...... with its build path it only has 10% built in anyways, so perhaps instead of pretty much "buying" more cdr by putting it into Athena's..... why not the AP or possibly even MR? There is a heavy lack of decent MR items for supports as well unless you are building tank, and only the Locket or Mikeal's for items that i can think of that help out the team as well as yourself......

So perhaps instead of an AP boost, a MR boost might be a bit nicer? Like 35-40 would be awesome and would feel like it actually does something when you are needing that kind of item.

Sugar MommaJul 19, 20165 votes

Really? I always feel like I have tons of MR between Locket/Banner, Mikael's, and even the occasional Abyssal Scepter/Zz'rot Portal.

Silly NeekoJul 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APqhhwjQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-19T00:07:12.852+0000)

Really? I always feel like I have tons of MR between Locket/Banner, Mikael's, and even the occasional Abyssal Scepter/Zz'rot Portal.

Well, with Zzrot or Abyssal I suppose the MR would be kinda nice..... I don't know.... I just always feel like when im playing a healing support, or shielding, half the time Abyssal passive will be kinda meh because im not normally close enough to enemies to make good use of it.... and when half the time if I would buy an Abyssal, the mid laner is normally AP and has an abyssal anyways xD

But yeah, the first two alone only give like 40 MR (or is it 65? God my memory is horrible atm... can't remember if locket/banner aura works on the owner of it too) together, with Mikeal's and Locket/Banner.... then Abyssal/Zzrott is 60 and 55 respectively.... it just really seems kinda meh to me. Could just be me but an alternative MR item for a healer just kinda sounds nice.... since the AP scaling is normally is fairly low. Could just be me, just tossing the idea out there.... either an AP or MR boost either way would work for me, I just thought id toss the idea of MR boost into the mix too. Also a bit of MR boost would be nice because you HAVE to be damaged to make use of its passive.... which could make some supports much happier to go swimming/floating/skipping into the frey of battle.

B1naryB0tJul 19, 20162 votes

I feel like I have tons of MR and never enough armor options.

It Hertz When IPJul 19, 20161 votes

Now that item 3069 has armor in it and item 3512 , item 3110 , and item 3050 exist, we aren't entirely deficient of armor options. Even more options exist if you're playing a tank support, as most tank items will work just fine for you.

plantersJul 19, 20162 votes

Not a support main but i played a few games recently i quickly came to the realization that this is not entirely true. item 3069 is not something you should be considering if you are a mage support and item 3302 is straight better than item 3301 in the early game because of its healing for your allies and the loss of gold will always feel pretty terrible. item 3110 and item 3512 are more designed for tanks than AP supports and item 3050 has lost value since ADC's can get 50% crit in 2 items and building 3 crit items has become a generally acceptable idea even if only situational.

For Ap situations item 3001 is an oddity because it is more designed for mages while item 3190 is once again more designed for tanks or tanky supports. An item frequently considered to be more for tanks but arguably better for mage supports is probably item 3060 because it gives you AOE MR like locket does but also AP. The problem is you dont really get mana regen which really hurts its value. In the case of mage supports there are not that many really great defensive options, though one could make the arguement that this is a good thing because it prevents mid lane mages from running amok.

Tl;dr most items for supports defense are designed for tanks

It Hertz When IPJul 19, 20161 votes

I rarely if ever see tanks getting Banner, I don't know who's feeding you that info. Banner's been a stereotypical support item since its conception. Similarly, Zzrot's is a choice for supports AND tanks; Use the Banner active on a lane and plant a Zzrot portal further along it and the lane will shove itself HARD without your team having to be there, forcing the enemy to either risk losing a tower or fight 4v5 while someone clears your portal and Banner minion.

Relic Shield is major suckage outside of laning phase, as it's seriously hard to proc the charges. Meanwhile Talisman continues to reward you without any effort, and if your team is coordinated enough the active on it is far superior.

If you still have Zeke's bound to your ADC by the time he has three crit items, it means you've forgotten that the active can be rebound on command. By that point in the game, you should have switched the binding to either the jungler or the midlaner.

plantersJul 20, 20161 votes

1st banner might have been designed for supports, but if you remember correctly, earlier this year the standard for top lane was some thing like item 3060 + item 3512 which meant that you were able to keep lanes permashoved. In fact, zzrot was created SPECIFICALLY for tanky champions.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-51-notes

this is a link to where they specifically mention this in the patch notes.

as for the superiority of relic vs talisman, as im not a support main i cant argue that too much, but that seems more situational than anything else. IF you have a Xerath and Jhin I would most certainly say this is NOT the case because they are both poke champions and the item is better for hard engage. Unless you were using it for disengage from a hard engage comp I would find it rather detrimental to take talisman over FOTM because FOTM is much better for sustaining during seiges.

As for zeke's, Ill give you that.

Sugar MommaJul 23, 20161 votes

Tanks do build banner from time to time...

Sion Singed Nautilus

Supreme Senpai69Jul 19, 20163 votes

Or honestly just take out the 10% CDR and lower the price accordingly

PoskeJul 19, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APqhhwjQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-18T22:58:28.564+0000)

is in a reasonable place right now but I find myself almost never building it on supports because I end up with too much CDR and and are all so good (with those 3 and your gold item you get 40%, with just two of them, gold item and you get 40%).

The only reason it still has 20% CDR is as a vestige of its days as a mid lane counterpart to .

Now that it's a support item, I think it'd be nice if its CDR was lowered to 10% and its AP increased to 55 or 60 AP (10% CDR is worth ~300 gold, and each AP point is worth 21.75 gold, so you'd need 15-20 AP to break even stats-wise). I think supports would appreciate getting a little extra power for their spells in exchange for CDR they don't need.

Athene is there for utility mages not for supports

Orianna Lux Karma Potentionally lulu

I know its great on Ori and karma being main of those But some lux players dont want to trade nomicon ap for athene its still good enough for her

I dont want to have less CDR on ori karma for pitty 20 ap . Just so you dont over cap it with supports

Also CDR scales exponentionally. Every next 1% of cdr worths more

AeszarckJul 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APqhhwjQ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-19T01:48:47.196+0000)

Athene is there for utility mages not for supports

Orianna Lux Karma Potentionally lulu

It's also really good on Sona. She does enough damage to make the Blood Charges worth it and is almost always healing allies.

PoskeJul 19, 20161 votes

sona is not utility mage though

You ll never see her in mid

But yeah its insane on her

kile147Jul 19, 20162 votes

So why does everyone think that an item that's almost perfectly designed for Sona and Bard, who are not utility mages, is for utility mages? It's a support item now.

PoskeJul 19, 20163 votes

Plz dont build it on bard He doesnt even take windspeaker as keystone

You ussualy want to go ludens revolver AKA strong first auto build on bard

kile147Jul 19, 20161 votes

I always go damage builds on Bard because I've always felt his heal wasn't impactful enough to be worth building for. I assumed that the new support itemization had fixed that issue somewhat but your reaction indicates it has not.

PoskeJul 19, 20161 votes

:) Exactly

Feel ApathyJul 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APqhhwjQ,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-07-19T02:31:55.364+0000)

sona is not utility mage though

You ll never see her in mid

But yeah its insane on her

just saw her top and she did pretty well.

Battlecast SonaJul 19, 20163 votes

Mages who can utilize Athene's:

Orianna Lux

Flex who can utilize Athene's (solo lane and support flex):

Lulu Karma

Supports who can utilize Athene's:

Bard Janna Morgana (she still gets the healing even though her E doesn't shield traditionally) Nami Sona Soraka

And that's not even all the champions who CAN, but just all the supports who can utilize it effectively (Janna is kinda whatever but since it's unmitigated damage, the base numbers on her W are actually high enough that a W by itself at max rank will almost fully charge her blood stacks... Thought it was worth a mention).

I feel like when Riot made it UNMITIGATED damage (damage before magic resistance) it was clearly tuned for supports, and there are CLEARLY way more supports who can utilize the item than mages, so arguing that it was "intended for" mages is pretty silly, especially since it received a change that specifically made it better on supports before it launched.

GodhriJul 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APqhhwjQ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-19T01:48:47.196+0000)

Athene is there for utility mages not for supports

Orianna Lux Karma Potentionally lulu

I know its great on Ori and karma being main of those But some lux players dont want to trade nomicon ap for athene its still good enough for her

I dont want to have less CDR on ori karma for pitty 20 ap . Just so you dont over cap it with supports

Also CDR scales exponentionally. Every next 1% of cdr worths more

I never build it on Orianna and I'm an Orianna main. Same with Lux and Karma. It just doesn't make sense to build it if you are going AP Mid. Mid lane needs to deal damage and you lose out on too much damage for too little benefit. Barely any healing on the effect, negligible MR, low AP and CDR you can obtain from the much more powerful and useful Morellos which is great since ADCs nowadays tend to have a lot of life steal.

Also never build it on Lulu either. Other items provide greater benefits. Now that I think about it. I never build it at all with any character.

PoskeJul 19, 20161 votes

[deleted]

GodhriJul 19, 20161 votes

Woa. Relax buddy. I was Plat II in my prime. That's relatively high elo. I just don't play as much anymore and quit for a while so my mmr and elo dropped. I did build athenes before it was changed into a more support based item. The healing effect is great indeed like you said, but every game I have played, my damage output took greater priority over the negligible healing.

Indeed it has been her core item for a long time, but that doesn't mean it will remain so if they change it like that. I prefer damage. It's just a personal preference. Her greatest use to her team has always been and will always be reliably landing a good ult. With athenes, you do less damage so landing a good ult doesn't help as much as if you build more damage.

As for mana regen, Morellos doesn't need to give her good mana regen, it gives her 400 mana. That's a lot of extra mana to use. I have since learned to mana manage with her and any other mid laner I play. Even without blue or mana regen items, I still always have enough for a team fight or a fight.

As for having the mechanics to use it, yes I do have the mechanics for it. I land my ults reliably, my ball goes where it needs to go and I generally end up doing really well both in and out of laning phase. Being low elo has nothing to do with having or not having mechanics. Other diamond level players have suggested that they are quite surprised at the skill of certain lower elo players while they are smurfing.

You're right. Not every mid laner should do damage, but the team comps I get into are generally low damage team comps. Usually the top, jungle and support are tanky or low damage output leaving only the adc. If the adc is unreliable, I need to be able to deal damage so I can at least chunk health for our adc to finish off.

Finally, I want to finish by saying that I have tried the new Athenes a few times, but didn't like the result. My team didn't benefit from it as much as I would have liked.

RozzetaJul 19, 20163 votes

I'd dare say the fact it is a support item now is why they're not giving it more AP. Make it more ofensive and it falls in the hands of mid laners to the point the item gets nerfed in other areas with no compensation.

I'm all for slashing 10% CDR off, but instead of AP, it should either upgrade the passive, increase the MR, or maybe provide some other stat. Cutting the gold cost, as Revan said,would also be pretty good.

blfUvZ8YbuJul 19, 20163 votes

We want high ap items.

King of MongooseJul 18, 20162 votes

>buffing mage supports

nty

Sugar MommaJul 19, 20163 votes

It's not really a buff. The item itself will be equally strong. It's sorta a QoL change that allows them a bit more item diversity.

King of MongooseJul 19, 20162 votes

supports are going to cap cdr on other items so removing 10 from this won't matter

Battlecast SonaJul 19, 20162 votes

the argument is "if I build athene's I have to either have 50% CDR or choose not to make locket, eyestone, or ardent censer, all of which are generally picked up on "enchantress"/healing and shielding supports who are going to get the most use out of the item. He wants to remove 10% so he can get more of another stat, not just remove 10% - remove 10% cdr and get more MR/AP/mana regen in its place, since the 10% is superfluous.

Athenes LuluJul 19, 20162 votes

Athene's had such a high CDR was mainly because it was originally intended more for mages who only builds like 1-2 CDR items, while supports have CDR on almost every item they have, and that it's the utility/sustain item for mages.

Unless Riot decides to change the intended audience and/or purpose of Athene's, changing it to 10% and adding 15~20 AP isn't really necessary.

And since supports shouldn't really ever build CDR boots, that 20% gives them a pretty good powerspike to have more CDR in a shorter amount of time, but that's just me.

CasterGilgameshJul 19, 20164 votes

to be fair riot has changed who grail is targeted to since Mana is the stat riot wants mages to build and mana regen was supposed to be for Supports to stay longer in lanes hence the changes to item 3165

Sightless66Jul 19, 201610 votes

Unless Riot decides to change the intended audience and/or purpose of Athene's,

They already did. It hasn't been an item for mages since it was reworked. It's pretty much only a way for healing or shielding supports to get extra healing potential. There is not a single midlaner in the game who really wants this item. It's a support item now, and it should be balanced as such.

it's the utility/sustain item for mages.

That would be Morellonomicon. Athene's does not do that job anymore. Mages are not buying this item.

And since supports shouldn't really ever build CDR boots, that 20% gives them a pretty good powerspike to have more CDR in a shorter amount of time, but that's just me.

A higher amount of AP would also give it a nice little powerspike, and without the added cost of making your ideal build overshoot on CDR.

Athenes LuluJul 19, 20161 votes

Original intent =/= how things turn out to be.

It was originally intended for supportive midlaners, but most players tend to build the Morello's path once the reworks rolled out.

Will say the change OP listed actually would be nice, but considering Riot's stance on what it was intended for not that likely.

Sightless66Jul 19, 20167 votes

It was originally intended for supportive midlaners,

To quote the 6.9 patch notes: "Athene’s Unholy Grail has taken on a new role as a team sustain item for aggressive supports (and off-supports)". This is also why they granted it unconditional mana regen even though they specifically said that unconditional mana regen was now a support stat (and was therefore removed from morellonomicon and tear) while flat mana was the mage stat.

The rework was specifically targeted to make it a support item. Midlaners purchasing it was a tertiary concern at best. It was intended to be a support item, it is being used as a support item, and it should be balanced according to the needs of supports.

Athenes LuluJul 19, 20161 votes

We want Athene's to be incredibly attractive on a subset of hybrid mage / supports - rather than core mid-laners like Ziggs or something. It is very much intended to murder the item for them.

Basically, there's this entire subclass of support/mages that are a combination of peel / mez / buffing allies that I'm trying to build itemization for - and Athene's is meant to be the push towards opening up that pool of supportive mages to have more options.

Source

Need to correct myself for a bit due to some misinformation.

Athene's was also planned as an alternative to Morellos, which was designed for more damage-oriented aggressive playstyles, when some of the more supportive mages won't find rushing damage as practical: it can also be the Morello's replacement. Which also means it also doubles as a midlaner item, where the 20% CDR was justified. If it was meant to be a "possible Morello's replacement", it should have the same amount of CDR that Morello's has. At least that's what their justification would be.

In fact, items designed truly for supports had 10% CDR, like Censer, Miakel's, Locket, and all of the tier 3 gold items.

Sightless66Jul 19, 20162 votes

Athene's was also planned as an alternative to Morellos,

As was noted, this was not the primary purpose. It was secondary. It was primarily an item for support characters. Time has shown that it failed at the secondary purpose. There is not need to preserve balance for a goal it has failed at.

In fact, items designed truly for supports had 10% CDR, like Censer, Miakel's, Locket, and all of the tier 3 gold items.

And items designed for mages never had mana regen. Xypherous even said that it having mana regen meant it needed to have a huge cost for mages. On stats alone, it doesn't fit either group very well. That's why bringing it more in line with the other support items is a very good idea.

ElikainJul 19, 20161 votes

Riot has stated that they need to make another AP item with 20% CDR since Athene's moved on to a support position. Which probably means Athene's won't make a comeback to mid lane, unless it synergizes with champions who have a shield in their kit and build AP.

It Hertz When IPJul 19, 20161 votes

Lux, Morgana, Karma, and Orianna still benefit from this even as midlaners. Almost every time I see them, though, they're building item 3070 or item 3165 .

PartholonianJul 19, 20161 votes

item 3070 item 3174 ? Why not both, if you're really that mana hungry? And then you would want the heavy CDR on Grail, because Tear/AA/Seraphs have none. (I might even try getting Tear on supports to avoid CDR overkill... just get it and sit on it, if you get to complete it, fine.)

And yeah, I think those champions (along with Lulu and Kayle) are exactly who Riot meant by "hybrid mage / supports" that are the intended audience.

It Hertz When IPJul 19, 20161 votes

I don't think I've ever seen that combo... most times I see a mage get Tear and another Mana item, it's either Morello's or RoA, since the bonus mana on them synergizes with the item 3003 / item 3040 passive.

WaterTribeJul 19, 20162 votes

I think they should add the spirit visage passive to it but it works on shields too. So 25% increase on SELF heals and shields (don't allow it to stack with spirit visage). Riot hasn't left much room for protection for supports (windspeaker resistances/ardent passive/GW etc) so I think this would be a really nice quality of life buff. Considering how assassins only counterplay is mainly the supports I think the supports should be able to live longer. Remove the CDR for all I care (so midlaners can't abuse it) as it isn't needed and it will also allow champions like Vlad and Swain decide whether to buy it or not against SV (health vs ap, vlad will probs pick sv).

KuboxJul 19, 20162 votes

Call me weird, but I actually like it as it currently is.

It's not meant to be a defensive item nor an offensive one. Rather, it's a niche item who's best use is helping utility-based supports carry. If a Mikael/Locket lets you save your carry/team from getting caught, and cheap AP items are used for AP scaling supports, Athene is meant to give those ranged supports with highly effective skillset do their job better.

Nami for example makes great use of it. if you find yourself on a roll with her bubbles, or your team simply doesn't need you to rush a specific item, Athene is amazing on her. That very early Athene makes a huge difference on how fast those CCs/Heals/Buffs rotate.

item 2301 item 3158 item 3174 is an extremely cheap build path that will let a utility support thrive much earlier than any other build.

PartholonianJul 19, 20161 votes

Chalice rush is amazing in lane, especially for Soraka but for others too. It gives you what you need when you need it.

JimmyyyJul 19, 20162 votes

Athenes is a support item now? adc main sorry...

plantersJul 19, 20161 votes

basically. been that way since the mage rework. technically its for utility mages but what are supports like janna and sona but a mage more focused on utility?

Champion SkinJul 19, 20162 votes

Athens is good on champions which deal damage to enemies (charges Athens) and also can heal/shield allies (uses the charges to heal allies)

RenascentJul 19, 20161 votes

Ardent Censer and Mikael's increased healing are currently unique on the PBE. You may not have to worry about going over cdr if that change goes through, since buying both Censer and Mikael will no longer stack healing.

Sire HippingtonJul 19, 20164 votes

as far as i know, it's only a unique passive, not a named unique passive. Which means two arden censers(or two mikael's) won't stack with each other, but one mikael's and one censer still do, just how the arpen of the different arpen items stacks.

A unique passive without a name just prevents stacking the same item.

Also, there are stil other sup items with cdr that go well with athene's, like item 3050

SkyBlade79Jul 19, 20161 votes

I just really miss the old passive. Now, I can't play my totally legit support Nidalee :P

Darkslayer85Jul 19, 20161 votes

The Athene passive is better on nidalee support. Land a spear, heal your ally.

SkyBlade79Jul 19, 20163 votes

Nah. With the old passive, you could literally throw infinite spears, because the old passive was actually kind of broken and it kind of gave infinite mana. That means more heals, too.