"Oh hey sejuani is getting buffs!" Wait. . .

Deus Imperator·Feb 29, 2016·76 votes·25,613 views

Sees other topics saying the buffs got reverted

Rito, are you serious? Xin buffs get past but this gets instantly reverted?

Can someone explain to me why this happens?

[zombie-brand-clap]

94 Comments

RiotRiot SotereFeb 29, 201653 votes

We try to test out a lot of things. Not all of them make PBE. Even if they do, some of them get reverted. If you're a Sej fan, hopefully it's comforting knowing she's on the radar to get some love.

Lazypeon100Feb 29, 20167 votes

I know this is off topic, but you've become one of my more favorite rioters. You post a nice mix of just funny stuff along with serious posts (like this one) which is nice to see.

Also I feel like you just appeared out of the blue about a month ago.

Sahn UzalFeb 29, 20165 votes

hopefully it's comforting knowing she's on the radar to get some love.

There are different types of love she could use..

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a7/Sejuani_Queen_concept.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140803002956 Seeing this released would be awesome :3 (I know you are one the balance team, but I felt like dropping that canceled skin here anyway xP) summoner 31

ForeverLaxxFeb 29, 201660 votes

She wouldn't need "some love" if your balance team wasn't so quick to nerf a champion due to an item interaction before immediately nerfing the problem item while leaving the affected champion in their nerfed state.

Silents429Feb 29, 201627 votes

"My perma banned overpowered champion got nerfed, and still functions just fine!"

"I know what will help, yell at Riot when they admit she is on the radar!"

For real here, Sejauni was stupid back on Cinderhulk release, currently she clears decent, strong ganks, powerful ult, and moderate damage.

What is she suffering from currently? That she can't perma slow you and deal high amounts of %HP damage anymore?

A Miss FortuneFeb 29, 201617 votes

But Sejuani was perfectly fine before Cinderhulk. She wasn't weak by any means, but she wasn't super overpowered either. I think any competent balance team member could of seen how Sejuani was so massively buffed indirectly due to Cinderhulk. While I'm not saying Sejuani before Cinderhulk was perfect, she definitely didn't deserve the nerfs that were given to her due to the item.

They should of nerfed the item and if Sejuani was still a problem go from there. Not just gut Sejuani and then proceed to nerf the item anyways.

Silents429Feb 29, 20162 votes

I think any competent balance team member could of seen how Sejuani was so massively buffed indirectly due to Cinderhulk.

They were well aware upon cinderhulks release that Sejuani might be a problem with it, they reacted appropriately.

The item was problematic on other tanks making it's nerf justified alongside her.

A Miss FortuneFeb 29, 201611 votes

So "reacting properly" is to gut Sejuani despite evidence VERY clearly proving Sejuani is only overpowered due to Cinderhulk. The item needed a nerf but the champion didn't. Riot has done stuff like this where a new item, mastery, or whatever makes a champion super strong, so instead of nerfing the item that is clearly overpowered itself, they gut the champion.

The worse part is that they usually nerf the thing that indirectly made said champion overpowered after they already gutted the champion, leaving them in a pathetically weak state.

Silents429Mar 1, 20166 votes

Will you stop calling it "gutting" she is just fine right now, that word is so overused that it lost it's meaning.

despite evidence VERY clearly proving Sejuani is only overpowered due to Cinderhulk. The item needed a nerf but the champion didn't

There is no evidence of this, she was strong before Cinderhulk, and stronger after Cinderhulk.

And the only way that logic makes any sense is if they nerfed Sejuani because of cinderhulk and then removed cinderhulk from the game. cough Warwick

Just because the item got what was honestly a love tap, doesn't mean it isn't strong or really good with Sejuani still, and just because she got nerfed alongside does not make it a gutting or the same situation that Warwick had.

As of today, right now, Current Cinderhulk and Sejuani she is perfectly fine and a small nudge wouldn't hurt things.

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 20165 votes

As of now Sejuani isn't "perfectly fine". She has a 2% playrate and she's sitting under a 50% winrate. Meaning not even dedicated Sejuani players can pull off much with her. Sejuani drifted so heavily from strong to weak simply because she was fundamentally more balanced than overpowered or underpowered. Any veteran League player would know the difference between 5 extra AD on a champion and how it can turn them from balanced into a monster or something as seemingly minor as that.

Silents429Mar 1, 20166 votes

As of now Sejuani isn't "perfectly fine". She has a 2% playrate and she's sitting under a 50% winrate.

Oh that's all we will ever need to decide balance, popularity and winrate, Sejuani was never a champion with a high playrate to begin with, Even Stonewall008 comments that his videos with Sejuani have significantly less views.

Sejuani drifted so heavily from strong to weak simply because she was fundamentally more balanced than overpowered or underpowered. Any veteran League player would know the difference between 5 extra AD on a champion and how it can turn them from balanced into a monster or something as seemingly minor as that.

She drifted from mediocre, to strong, to stronger, then to slightly okay. She is suffering in no real way right now, but some people insist she is just god afwully unplayable, and was gutted from viability. And not surprising, the people that say such things don't even play her.

Any veteran League player would know the difference between 5 extra AD on a champion and how it can turn them from balanced into a monster or something as seemingly minor as that.

Name 1 instance where something as trivial like 5ad made a champion a monster.

SinlaireMar 1, 20162 votes

I think suffering is relative. As it stands I will play Sejuani in my normals games but not my ranked.

I spent two seasons just doing my 10 prelims and a little messing around without bothering to climb and i started bronze 4 this season. And let me tell you something. never in my life will i play Sejuani down there or my current bronze 3. These guys struggle with grouping much less coherant engage/disengage timing.

the handfgul of times i played Sej because we needed an AP tank my team would see me ult to save them and think it was a time to go in, and further die. Other times they would watch me ult half a team and just stand there at full health like, "oh that was cool..... so are we going to set up an engage or wait for them to engage on us.?"

Overall i think that taking her Damage from her W just murdered her ability to carry herself and just relegated her to just a Q/R stun bot for her team. Not to say her W and E dont have impact, but that she wont turn games or made large changes at all. you just land Q/R and wait for the team to win. Which is not something you can afford to do in many instances.

QuadradactylMar 1, 20162 votes

You are pretty spot on and my buddy spams Sej with us currently. Her mid is ok and late game is great but her early game is a tad on the weak side. If you know how to abuse it then you can just shut her out harder than most. I wont mind seeing a little love come her way but overall she is in a pretty decent spot.

DoseqisMar 1, 20163 votes

I used to play sejuani but i just can't play her anymore i can't duel anyone who invades me and i can't really do any damage until very late into the game.

Now we look at amumu who has good damage ganks and teamfight and just outclasses sejuani at almost every point in the game by having a more reliable engage and ult.

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 20163 votes

item 1412

Silents429Mar 1, 20162 votes

No?

WadeWilson1337Mar 2, 20161 votes

Vayne Rip the 3 ad buff, she doesnt even have a 50% winrate now! KappaRoss

Big LincolnMar 1, 20168 votes

the champion definitely needed a nerf, and she's one of my favorite champs

12% max health every 4 seconds with a sizable, HP-scaling AoE to go with it was way too much

A 90% slow as your compensation for missing your ultimate was way too much

Sejuani was a hidden OP champ before Cinderhulk, after her rework. It just took Cinderhulk making it egregiously obvious for Riot to react to it.

Rinky DinkyMar 1, 20162 votes

[deleted]

Zenthon PrimeMar 1, 20162 votes

Not sure if a parody comment or actually that dumb.

Big LincolnMar 1, 20168 votes

he's my friend, so parody

but he is actually that dumb, too

Rinky DinkyMar 2, 20161 votes

Spaceman5pffMar 1, 20162 votes

They did not gut sejuani.

They overnerfed her, but they didnt gut her.

Baron of BreadMar 1, 20163 votes

As someone who was a Sejuani main before her buffs and through the CInderhulk meta until her overnerfing, she needed some nerfs before cinderhulk was released. Cinderhulk made her more noticeable and even more OP, but she should have had nerfs coming before that. Unfortunately, as I said above, they then overnerfed her.

KaxiMar 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APXXEmpy,comment-id=00020003000000010002,timestamp=2016-03-01T09:42:34.178+0000)

As someone who was a Sejuani main before her buffs and through the CInderhulk meta until her overnerfing, she needed some nerfs before cinderhulk was released. Cinderhulk made her more noticeable and even more OP, but she should have had nerfs coming before that. Unfortunately, as I said above, they then overnerfed her.

Agreed. As of right now, there is no reason to pick her over Amumu, Gragas, Nautlius... It's just frustrating; she can't do anything for herself early, and it's just making me want to play other champs...like Rumble in the Jungle.

SalronMar 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APXXEmpy,comment-id=0002000300000001,timestamp=2016-02-29T23:46:13.195+0000)

But Sejuani was perfectly fine before Cinderhulk.

Except she wasn't.

WadeWilson1337Mar 2, 20161 votes

But, thats what Riot does. I am calling it right now, item 1403 is getting nerfed on pbe, and within 2-3 patches, item 3124 will be nerfed, and devourer will be left where it was after nerfs, completely forgotten.

AudiomancyMar 1, 20162 votes

I don't play Sejuani, but I think most people are just unhappy that both the champion and the item that made her obnoxious got nerfed.

DoseqisMar 1, 20164 votes

Because amumu does what sejuani does but better

KairyaMar 1, 20162 votes

I've played Sejuani for a long time, at least a year before the invention of cinderhulk. She was my favorite Jungler while many deemed her as a non-viable pick. Right now I am not playing her, because her jungle clear has never been as bad as it is now. She takes a lot of damage during her first clear and it takes a long time. In comparison I have squishy junglers like Elise, who cleares jungle twice as fast and has enough sustain to be nearly fulllife after her first round. Yes, Elise is a very different champion, but my point is: Why is a tank worse at tanking jungle monsters than a full AP Champion?

Sejuani is likely to fall behind, and if she does, her strong ganks and moderate damage are gone. To stay on top of things she needs to jungle a lot, which in turn means she can't gank as often. Her general Mobility is restricted to one high cooldown skill, which isn't going to speed her up much either.

Her transition into mid and late game can be equally difficult, because you either try to farm - risking not being there for a teamfight - or you have not enough money for items - making Sejuani less tanky.

If you make good decisions and manage ganks and farm properly, she can still be a good pick. However Sejuani doesn't have a high tolerance for mistakes right now. What is she suffering from? Poor jungle clear and no good reason to pick her. There are almost always safer, more forgiving options.

MrWasjigMar 1, 20161 votes

Well this guy isn't wrong, regardless of Sejuani's current state.

GundayMondayFeb 29, 20164 votes

Appreciate you and the team looking at her! Do you need any help or player feedback? I have a few thousand games of experience on her. Happy to help!

Scared of another cinderhulk happening where she's banned every game and I can't play her. :-(

RiotRiot SotereFeb 29, 201611 votes

Appreciate the offer! It's not my change so I'm not out and about trying to rustle up a lot of feedback. However, did just read one of your other posts and I think the developer is directing his attentions in a way aligned with your thinking. So, once you see the full set on PBE (tomorrow would be my guess) let us know?!

AzteryzFeb 29, 20161 votes

since sej and sion got the brunt of the nerfs from the cinderhulk meta is it possible if you could tell us if he is on the radar for a small love tap?

OneSmoothDudeFeb 29, 20162 votes

According to op.gg, Sion has a 49.71% win rate in the jungle, and a 52.02% win rate up top.

I know I know, win rates aren't everything. But they are indicative.

RocketRelmFeb 29, 20161 votes

I guess I've just gotta ask "what ELOs?" and "What play rates?" to these statements here.

Lord GalvatronMar 1, 20161 votes

Champion.gg is the most accurate for the win rates/ other stats. The elo range is listed as platinum - challenger.

The only reason why Sion is actually viable now, is the item and mastery changes as Sion can use the new items (Sterrak's and Titanic) to great effect. There are a ton of reasons/variables why Sej may not be buffed anytime soon. Here are some examples:

Upcoming Mage rework might effect AP items which might buff Sej in itself (Liandrys etc.)
Changes to ADC's/Assassins because they are so blatantly powerful (Multi-ADC comps in high elo)
Nerfs to Meta AP jg's such as Nidalee and Elise which sit dominant in the jg. This might make Tank AP Jg's more appealing.

This is a strange time patch wise, I thought I would never see the day where Galio has the 5th Highest win rate top lane.

I cant say anything but I am SOOOOOOOOO happy they are rebuffing Hecarim as he was "Olaf'd" right before the meta changed. Im glad that Riot at least noticed that. The fact that they noticed Hecarim gives hope to other champions that were made unviable due to balance oversight.

EapenatorMar 1, 20163 votes

As someone who plays Sion alot, I have to say that Sion does not need buffs at all. He is in a perfectly balanced spot. I think he just suffers from people not realizing how good he is in lane and after that.

It's alot like how kogmaw was really strong before the patch which threw him over board. I was playing him perfectly fine before they shoved all his power onto his W, and then suddenly, he is FOTM, and has been nerfed subsequently.

I think sion just needs a good skin :/

TitanusseMar 1, 20161 votes

This I LOVE going sion top jungle or support He is jsut in a good position, Yes there are things that could be done to make him feel more concise (His shield early game is horrid and late game its mental Id kinda like to see it balanced out abit) But otherwise hes fantastic. But yeah. The big guy needs a new skin, as much as I love hextech,warmonger,lumberjack and barbarian they are all kinda Meh and really dont do much for him in any way (Plus why the fuck doesnt lumber jack sion have a Monty python refence? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgaRd4d8hOY) Id really like to see a 1350 or n 1800 RP skin released for him something to make him Feel even more awesome.

Baron of BreadMar 1, 20161 votes

{quoted} "Olaf'd"

Kind of funny since Olaf has terrible winrates right now. (I know the historical context as well)

GundayMondayMar 1, 20161 votes

Yeah for sure (were you talking about the Q idea?). I'm not on the PBE (my application has been pending for a while), but will check it out on S@20 or another site.

EDIT: I see the base damage up on her E for early levels. That'll help her early clear, but isn't the thing keeping her playrate/winrate down. Might have to jump on a friend's PBE account and try it though. Might work!

Was thinking increasing the early base damage on her Q would be better, maybe making the Q hitbox a little bigger, but this could work too. Similar idea.

Oerba No NajaFeb 29, 20168 votes

Im a sej fan , but i dont play her anymore because she is just the shadow of her old self . I can tell you that fancy quol change wont matters She is very squishy for a tank , and it returns she was allowed to deal a good amount of dmg while built ap bruiser . but the nerfed sejuani with the nerfed cinderhulk , is realy bad .

_She is supposed to be hard to avoid but she gets no tanky steroid , the 27 armor( at max potential of the passive ) buff is a joke i wish it could scale more depending how much champ you cc , like i wish sejuani should be rewarded for applying a good amont of cc thats why i think that sejuani should feel tankier when she go in . You want her to fits in to the ( riot words ) "Sej on what she does best - being a tanky, crowd-control focused armor lady " But you guys dont realise that she is poorly tanky compared to any other tank . Her passive is lackluster and i think its a good start if you plan on buffing sejuani

_Interactions with her team , i do think that sejuani is a teamplay champ . Thats why i think that her kit should get a coordination with freljord / icy champ : Anivia frost bite can crit on sejuani frost , sejauni also benefits of the trundle's Frozen Domain ... ect

_ Give her better base dmg or AP RATIOS on q and e .

Lady HammerlockMar 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APXXEmpy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-29T17:37:51.105+0000)

We try to test out a lot of things. Not all of them make PBE. Even if they do, some of them get reverted. If you're a Sej fan, hopefully it's comforting knowing she's on the radar to get some love.

Think ik why you reverted it because hurricane ashe +45% cdr AP sejuani would be a monster

TehNACHOFeb 29, 201619 votes

Well for a start, her buffs were weird as shit and made no sense.

Sure we can agree she needs something, but let's not leave it at what she got.

ErdamonFeb 29, 20163 votes

Exactly like Xin buffs

TehNACHOFeb 29, 20165 votes

Not so much. Xin is primarily an auto attacker and the crit buff makes perfect sense with that.

ErdamonFeb 29, 20162 votes

While we can agree that Xin could use some work to make him better defined as a champion, pretty much everyone saw those particular buffs as uncalled for, especially in his current state (perhaps that's gonna help him once the aftermath of upcoming devourer nerf comes but then, right now he's ridiculous)

TehNACHOFeb 29, 201611 votes

This and that are two entirely different things.

Sejuani needs buffs but the one she got made no sense, so it was pulled.

Xin didn't need buffs but got one that made sense.

See what I'm saying?

Dominick DestineFeb 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

her buffs were weird as shit and made no sense.

InHaruhiWeTrustFeb 29, 20164 votes

i'm super glad these buffs got reverted. she could use some buffs, but turning her E into a yas ult style "everyone get slow champs" is really stupid. changing her Q so that it does % of her max hp dmg or reverting some of the massive nerfs to her W would be much better IMO.