can we do something to make him more unique? his villain mechanic is just not that great when there are targets that are higher priority than the 6k HP sion that just accidentally killed the support with his sunfire passive. And even with villain status, his ult will always be worse than darius because it cant reset. Maybe if he can choose his targets like kindred can?
ModKnightsKemplar17 votesThematically, I love the villain mechanic, but it needs to work better. I'd be okay with choosing targets, but I rather have a better algorithm that just did a better job of selecting the proper enemy. I still don't really understand how it works, to be honest, in terms of exactly how it chooses.
His kit probably needs other work, and I agree W is the first place to look.
Wolfeur6 votesThe villain is chosen by who has the most kills in the last 5 minutes
DeathBurst3 votesI still don't really understand how it works, to be honest, in terms of exactly how it chooses.
Every time an opponent kills an ally (not Garen himself), it gets a stack that last for 5(?) minutes. The enemy with the most stacks is the Villain. Garen getting a take-down on the Villain removes all the stacks.
Additionally, if Garen is in-combat with the Villain (i.e. damaging the Villain and/or taking damage from them), the Villain status can't jump on someone else for as long as you remain in combat. E.g. if Darius is the Villain and you're in-combat with him, and at the same time Syndra suddenly makes a Triple Kill, she won't become the Villain until Garen is out of combat with Darius. This is to ensure that you don't engage on the Villain and don't find yourself suddenly unable to fight them because the debuff bounced on someone else.
That being said, the Villain passive accounts for a rather small part of Garen's power budget, and it's the lesser of all his issues.
The main problems in Garen's kit are:
(Yes, I'm a Garen Main.)
EcchiOtakuTM11 votesYea, and while I do think his Q and E are iconic, he really should just be reworked again...
Maybe just make his Q+E a 2 part skill (like how sejuani's old W worked, garen holds a silence then after the AA spins 2 win, if he reactivates it early he spins to win.)
Passive gets completely changed, that is absolutely NOT what a juggernaut wants. rewarding himself for being a coward? Hell no, plus from lore he wouldn't punk out. Honestly I paid it no mind until someone brought it up recently but his passive even if everything else I say doesn't get a positive feedback, I strongly feel his current passive HAS to go.
W, with a new passive garen wouldn't need this, maybe rework how this works and make it his new passive or something? idk.
E is a new skill
Villian mechanic could also be his passive, but I think it's better if W and E were new skills and ulti stayed how it currently is.
AwesomeGuyDj2 votesWhatever they do with a garen rework (he needs one which is why they wont buff him apparently. Like old poppy if he's buffed in the right way he becomes an oppressive op monster) the silence needs to go. Its not interactive or fun or ANYTHING to have him just charge silence you and spin to win on top of you while he can also move through minions.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesWhatever they do with a garen rework (he needs one which is why they wont buff him apparently. Like old poppy if he's buffed in the right way he becomes an oppressive op monster) the silence needs to go. Its not interactive or fun or ANYTHING to have him just charge silence you and spin to win on top of you while he can also move through minions.
Well if the silence came after his spin if they were on the button you'd be sacrificing dps and you could have other skills for cc/dmg in there. Silence is one of the more fair ccs given how impactful and common stuns/roots are, its just annoying when you're spell dependant + melee and Garen gets to use his whole kit on you.
Pluniverse4 votesIf you read his lore his sword basically was made with an anti-magic material. that is why he can silence. I think thats really cool and i main riven, his easiest lane.
It Hertz When IP9 votesSo long as I can still scream "JUSTICE" and drop a sword the size of Arkansas on someone's head, I'll be happy with whatever.
WinTheWarOnPants1 votesEven if it's a "magic" sword?
It Hertz When IP1 votesESPECIALLY if it's a magic sword.
Big Lincoln5 votesremove the villain passive entirely and we can work from there
garen is way burstier with the right builds, too, so he's at least got that going for him
DeathBurst3 votesYou may not like the Villain passive, but it's not the problem. It accounts for a small part of his total power budget, you won't gain much wiggle room by removing it.
Big Lincoln4 votesi don't care. its a shitty concept
DeathBurst2 votesI mean, you can remove the Villain passive, for all I care, sure. But that won't enable you a lot of power to allocate somewhere else. You need more fundamental changes to his kit in order to make him viable at higher ranks. I'm all for Garen getting more depth, but you won't achieve this goal just by removing his passive. That's a first step, maybe, but that's a very small first step, you need more than that.
lolipopevelynn1 votesI mean, you can remove the Villain passive, for all I care, sure. But that won't enable you a lot of power to allocate somewhere else. You need more fundamental changes to his kit in order to make him viable at higher ranks. I'm all for Garen getting more depth, but you won't achieve this goal just by removing his passive. That's a first step, maybe, but that's a very small first step, you need more than that.
garen being able to execute any target he wants for full missing health true dmg is actually alot bigger than you guys think. he should very rarely lose lane if he can target any champ outside of villain.
DeathBurst1 votesgaren being able to execute any target he wants ... [...]
... if he can target any champ outside of villain.
What? No one here said that Garen should be able to choose a target for his True Damage passive.
He can't control who the Villain is, and he shouldn't be able to actively choose a target. But precisely since he can't control it, this passive doesn't cost him a lot of power budget.
lolipopevelynn1 votes[...]
... if he can target any champ outside of villain.What? No one here said that Garen should be able to choose a target for his True Damage passive.
He can't control who the Villain is, and he shouldn't be able to actively choose a target. But precisely since he can't control it, this passive doesn't cost him a lot of power budget.
One of my suggestions was to allow for garen to choose who his "villain" target is similiar to kindreds passive, which means he can control who is the villain. this also sits well with his thematic because demacia and garen always passes judgement on anyone that goes against demacias principles. so allowing garen to pass judgement on anyone he chooses would go well with his theme. This is why i said if he is allowed to choose who the villain is for his ult it would be a very big power boost to him. the ONLY downside to this is that it might make him as oppressive as darius is in lane once garen hits 6, but garen and darius should be equals anyway.
the problem with his current villain mechanic is that its too random considering games are never predictable. what if a 
gets fed? a garen should never catch a good and competent ahri out with his ult. Planets would have to align perfectly or the ahri would have to just be a vegetable for garen to actually get anywhere near her, and this is just catching ahri out by herself, nvm if her team is actually peeling her. Most of the time garen is just beyblading ontop of and ulting anyone infront of him, not going out of his way to chase the villain target that is probably a hyper mobile assassin, mage, or adc. think 
im not a garen main, but im pretty sure anyone who has played garen vs these champions know exactly how stupid it is to try and catch them if they are the villain. garen wants to be able to ult whoever is trying to dive his backline, basically peeling targets off with his silence + dmg since he has no natural form of CC. if he is able to choose targets that are constantly diving his backline then that diver will have to think twice now that garen just marked him as the villain.
DeathBurst1 votesOne of my suggestions was to allow for garen to choose who his "villain" target is similiar to kindreds passive, which means he can control who is the villain.
Oh, yes, I meant no one in this subthread. My first comment was a reply to Big Lincoln, not to your OP.
Anyway, sure, if you allow Garen to choose who the Villain is, the Villain passive is super strong, probably even completely OverPowered. But that's not what we were talking about. The Villain passive in its current form is not really powerful at all, so even if you remove it (as Big Lincoln was suggesting), you don't get back a lot of budget to re-assign to other places in his kit.
And I am a Garen main. It's still easier to kill a Kassasdin or an Ahri than a Caitlyn or a Jinx. Sure Kass and Ahri have tons of mobility, but they have to get in range of your silence to execute their combos, and once they're silenced you can one-shot them. And even if you don't manage to do it, you just need to tag them with one tick of your E and get an assist so that the Villain debuff bounces on someone else.
On the other hand, good luck to get in melee range of a Cait/Jinx in the first place.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesYou may not like the Villain passive, but it's not the problem. It accounts for a small part of his total power budget, you won't gain much wiggle room by removing it.
Take that and his passive and you suddenly have removed tons of hidden power and can actually give him something to teamfight with as compensation.
Big Lincoln2 votespassive isn't hidden power, it's just not interactive or interesting
but it works for his gameplay of in-out fighting
TwitchInMyPants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APQo3cHE,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-20T23:18:24.227+0000)
passive isn't hidden power, it's just not interactive or interesting
but it works for his gameplay of in-out fighting
"Hidden power" is power that isn't obvious over the course of fights but factors into Riot's balance decisions. I'd say the villain bonus damage and his regen are both things people don't think about when they consider whether they want Garen on their team, they're thinking more about the impact of his silence, spin, and execute.
PB4UAME1 votesHow is the glowing green aura around him, and the giant green hp numbers ticking up not obvious?
How is a giant sword next to your name that also changes and makes sound effects when you are in execute range to warn you, not obvious?
These aren't hidden power.
"Hidden power," is an old buzzword RIOT came up with for simple stat passives, or aura effects that beyond a simple icon on your buff bar, did not show that they had any effect on anything at all. It doesn't apply to anything on Garen except for his W's passive, which he needs to farm 125 minions to fully have.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesI forgot about that thing, so that could be factored in. And it may be a slight misuse of hidden power but you at least have to admit that it doesn't have a significant impact in lane trades. He loses base hp per 5 in order to stand out of combat and random champions on the map take bonus damage, but because he's a top primary he's stuck 1v1 for most of it. That's a lot of power in his kit being totally underutilized because of his role.
I think his regular passive is actually good, but I'd rather have Garen actually be durable or get in-fight sustain like Darius does so he has reasons to keep fighting instead of hiding from people.
DeathBurst1 votesWell, no, that's precisely my point: it's not a ton. The passive is a definitely more budget than the Villain passive, but still far from "a ton". And if you remove both the Regen and the Villain, you're getting most of your value from just the Regen.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesWell, no, that's precisely my point: it's not a ton. The passive is a definitely more budget than the Villain passive, but still far from "a ton". And if you remove both the Regen and the Villain, you're getting most of your value from just the Regen.
Near true damage and more ult damage is a decent amount of power. The passive is also justification for low hp per 5. A ton is an exaggeration but both of those are the least active skills and they can't straight up buff his fighting ability when he's struggling because of how hard he is to stop when rolling and part of that is how he can just hide and regen and the villain passive means 1/5 of your team can't risk existing near him.
You could say the same as Darius against most champs though other than some passive pen on his scoop and a piddly amount of movespeed he has very little passive power taking from his abilties. Now Garen shouldn't be the same champion, I like his unique utility, but part of a rework should be cutting things that aren't working. If the Villain passive isn't doing anything for him it either needs to be more reliable or just cut for something more effective.
DeathBurst1 votesNear true damage and more ult damage is a decent amount of power.
It would be an insane amount of power... if you could control on which enemy it goes. But you can't control it, and so it doesn't hold a large amount of power.
The passive is also justification for low hp per 5.
True, but that doesn't mean the passive holds a lot of power. To the contrary, that implies that the passive is just a different way to give him something that everyone else already has by default?
A ton is an exaggeration but both of those are the least active skills and they can't straight up buff his fighting ability when he's struggling because of how hard he is to stop when rolling and part of that is how he can just hide and regen and the villain passive means 1/5 of your team can't risk existing near him.
Given the small amount of power held by these skills, they STILL won't be able to straight up buff him even if you remove them. And Garen doesn't use his regen passive when he's snowballing, it's most useful in hard match-ups, not when you're already far ahead. Same for the Villain passive, if you're ahead, you don't need it, you'll kill people anyway. It's when you're behind and you can't afford to build damage from items that the natural %HP True damage from his kit comes in handy.
You could say the same as Darius against most champs though other than some passive pen on his scoop and a piddly amount of movespeed...
I don't think that Darius has any MS in his kit anymore. You must be thinking about the old version before the Juggernaut Roster update.
If the Villain passive isn't doing anything for him it either needs to be more reliable or just cut for something more effective.
The Villain passive isn't "doing nothing". It's a huge flavor win for a very small gameplay cost. Now if Riot came and said "we can rework Garen but the Villain passive has to go", I would not hesitate for a second, I'm not particularly attached to this passive. But I just want you to realize that solving Garen's issues is not as simple as removing the passive and then buffing him. That won't work.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesI'm suggesting removing it or buffing it. I think the villain passive is scary strong, so it could either work like Kind where you select a target and can't reselect until they kill or after a timer or some restriction, or they could get rid of it for something more reliable. It's not very strong right now I agree, but I'm basically suggesting reworking his kit since his power budget is in places that don't make sense with his main skills.
Critmaster Garen4 votesthe ult would need further adjustments, but id prefer to be able to select the target.
junglerboy164 votesI dunno, being able to Nuke a 6K HP Sion for over 2000 true damage is pretty useful, that bastard isn't gonna die very quickly to anything else anytime soon.
Even better against Cho'gath actually...
Sir Fuzzi3 votesHis Q and E are solid, but I feel like everything else about Garen is a bit outdated. The villain mechanic was a shoehorned device to keep him relevant, because without it in his current state he'd be that much worse.
He just needs to feel like he does more than just damage you up close. It's even worse if the silence isn't super relevant on his enemy, because then he doesn't even have his own slow or anything, he just has to hope he can stand toe-to-toe on a regular basis.
Arakadia1 votesQ and E are not solid imo.
Sir Fuzzi3 votesThey get their job done; E makes it so you never want Garen sticking to you, and his Q sure makes that a bit of trouble.
He just needs to be more mechanically... I don't know, not intense or complicated, but modern. He feels outdated with this 'BUTTON DO THING' kind of gameplay. I mean, you basically just pick someone who can peel him reliably and that's it. All he can do is break slows (and roots...?) and reduce damage taken, and he can't really afford to level the damage reduction too early because he loses out on so much damage that way and can't duel with his tickle-stick.
Q and E aren't wrong, they're just too simple for modern times. Opponents sort of have to 'fall for' Garen.
Theorchero2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APQo3cHE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-06-20T02:58:52.348+0000)
They get their job done; E makes it so you never want Garen sticking to you, and his Q sure makes that a bit of trouble.
He just needs to be more mechanically... I don't know, not intense or complicated, but modern. He feels outdated with this 'BUTTON DO THING' kind of gameplay. I mean, you basically just pick someone who can peel him reliably and that's it. All he can do is break slows (and roots...?) and reduce damage taken, and he can't really afford to level the damage reduction too early because he loses out on so much damage that way and can't duel with his tickle-stick.
Q and E aren't wrong, they're just too simple for modern times. Opponents sort of have to 'fall for' Garen.
His Q only cleanses slows. That's it.
Sir Fuzzi1 votesAt Garen's inception, movement-impairing non-slows were not quite so proliferated. Part of the big problem now is active sustain and knockups are everywhere. Garen's highly passive sustain and 'run at enemy' kit mean he has like two play phases, "oh my god suck my thumb for HP" and "god I hope I get at them with QWE."
He needs something in his kit besides right clicking at the enemy and executing once in a while.
Jeanne fan club3 votesDoesn't garen have armor shred now, alongside black cleaver? Maybe they should center his kit around reducing enemy armor, especially the villains armor
PB4UAME1 votesSlowly shreds their armor until he does true damage is a much better damage paradigm, imo, than what he currently has.
lolipopevelynn3 votesI wouldn't say remove his ult, his ult is honestly one of the most satisfying ult in the game when it kills someone. It just needs to be reworked in a way that separates it from being a darius ult on a budget. Theoretically his ult has the potential to be alot more powerful than dari ult since garen doesnt need stacks, but its held back by current villain mechanic
Romans VI XXIII2 votesI honestly think Garen is in a good spot at the moment.
The only changes I would make is
allow Colossus to proc off of Silence (CoC is intended for juggernauts but the original juggernaut cant even proc it......) as it is now Garen doesn't really have a Key stone that fits him.
give his Ulti additional scaling, like based off of his max HP or his resistance, they just changed Rek, and basically gave her a more powerful vs of Garen ult. Scales off AD and % missing HP.
Allow his passive to work during combat but at a reduced rate, or give it a mechanic that includes either his spin or taking damage increases it.
Adding a mechanic that if he kills a target with his ult than the CD of his Basic abilities are reduced, increased if the target was the villain. (I think this alone would be enough for him.) this would allow him to be more useful late game rather than being a lane splitting meat shield :)
General Esdeath 2 votesI stopped playing Garen when the villain would swap mid fight. Oh that 4/0 Yasuo is marked and you're on him? It would be a shame if we made the 2/1 Hecarim the bad guy as you're fighting Yasuo and now lose a huge chunk of bonus true damage you rely on.
JeffLeague1232 votesNew Garen Buff! His ult instantly one shots the villian.
Raiyza1 votesGaren needs a champion update. Everytime I have a garen on my teams, he is horrendously useless.
TimX24968B1 votesnot gonna happen. riot already said they won't do any kind of garen rework.
Raiyza1 votesI'm aware. Garen will stay champion for new players to pick up. I just wish I wouldn't see him in my games.
Vectros1 votesWhat I think:
-Change passive to an in combat sustain. Maybe health regen that drastically raises the more spins he gets on a single enemy? This would reward continuously hitting a given target-and if he's in the middle of 3 enemies his sustain would be damned good.
-I think Q is more or less fine as is. I'm ok with Garen being kitable so long as he wins the trades he manages to get in range for...the problem is, he doesn't always win these trades. There are far more mobile champions I've lost to-no running on their part, they weren't fed or anything. Doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't the immobile juggernaut win out if both sides hold their ground?
-I think his W should be reworked to something like Warwicks E, or Galio. A press and hold style ability. Maybe make the % damage stack up to a cap (say, 50%?) starting at a lower number. Perhaps if he channeled as I'm suggesting, he could have a brief period where he gets 1/2 his damage reduction, but for every attack he takes during that time, he gets an additional .5 or 1 seconds added to the time he blocks damage? This would provide counter play on both sides. Garen wants to use this brief window to make it last longer, but without taking a huge nuke during that time since the damage reduction is less initially. He wants to time it right-while enemies want to either burst him down during this window, or avoid hitting him at all so he gets less shield time over all.
-As I said earlier I think Garen should be better at extended trades, which is usually vs other bruisers he'll have trouble (though late game ADC's have been a cause for pain at times as well-they're not even running and still cut through me faster than I cut through them). Maybe a ramp up damage effect? %HP based, to target tankier targets? Unlike the current armor shred, have it ramp up each tick, starting with the 4th consecutive kit. This would provide counter play to the enemy to attempt to reset it-if you decide to stay in the spin, you should be punished appropriately.
-I love how his R works, but it is over shadowed by a certain Noxian. But I don't think giving it a reset is the answer-their ults should be unique. Maybe give it permanently reduced CD on each executed villain, down to a cap? Or additional damage for each execution. I'm one of the few who actually likes the villain mechanic-though it's admittedly odd to put an ability that requires you to reach a particular target to make use of...on a champion who has trouble reaching any given target due to lack of gap closer and CC.
GULAG 4 U1 votesF2P BTW
r/hearthstone is leaking guys...
Rikari1 votesI don't think you realize that when he decides you're the villain half health means no health,whatever champ you play. that craps busted.
zeskgames1 votesPersonally I think that if his ult gets resets then he'll just be a carbon copy of Darius (or Darius will be a carbon copy of Garen is you wanna be technical). I feel like Garen's ult should grant some other bonus when it kills the villain. Here are some suggestions I had:
Just spitballin some stuff here, tell me what ya'll think.
EbonyBladeJ881 votesThey've said in the past that he's supposed to be the Polar Opposite of Darius. Now, I get your points, I really do, and I personally feel that Garen REALLY needs a VGU, because, while the Villain mechanic works thematically, the gameplay part leaves ALOT to be desired.
What to suggest, I wouldn't know, but as he used to be one of my tried and true champs, I REALLY would like it if he got some REAL love from Riot.
FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votesI feel like Garen does nothing in particular.
He's the most generic of champions. That doesn't make him unviable; it just makes him...the most generic of champions.
