"We are going to keep buffing ZIlean if he is bad..."

TaoistMaster·Jun 15, 2015·47 votes·4,512 views

Are you?

According to champ.gg: OVERALL PLACEMENT 20 / 22

95 Comments

OrbvJun 15, 201523 votes

Q AoE needs to be more effective. You can send 2 bombs to the same location, the first will stick to a champion, and the second will just lay on the ground sometimes.

I also think his passive needs to go. It was kind of helpful when it was global, but 8% bonus experience to only himself and his nearest ally(ies) is actually pretty weak. And it's always been an issue of being usless at lvl 18. She's already not a #1 support, seeing as he's still used mid more often. The experience doesn't exactly help his laning, only others' laning (he doesn't benefit much from being a level ahead because he has so little dmg anyway). Can he get a passive that actually helps his gameplay?

canpan14Jun 15, 201528 votes

She's already not a #1 support

Zilean may not be the #1 support but she is a beautiful lady.

OrbvJun 15, 20153 votes

Lol woops, I tend to throw random S's around when I type.

TaoistMasterJun 15, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Lol woops, I tend to throw random S's around when I type.

or do you know something about Zilean's lore that we don't?

ThelmonJun 15, 201510 votes

Zilean used to be Caitlyn

EvilRabbittJun 15, 20152 votes

And the plot thickens.

Marinaras TrenchJun 15, 20155 votes

The clot* Vladimir

BârdJun 15, 20156 votes

P Worthless since they made it non global

Q The targeting system of this just doesn't work. Sticky bombs are clunky.

W it WAS fine, when it reduced his ults cooldown, now it just refreshes basic abilities that dont do much anymore

E Someone forgot about diminishing returns, so this is the same slow as before with a shorter duration

R Unnecisary nerfs with W not reducing its cooldown (the reduction of the base cooldown isnt the same until 40% cdr and lvl 16) and the duration being lowered.

Voluug13Jun 15, 20156 votes

Truth is the rework failed. I was a kneejerk decision on Riot's part towards a champion that only saw play thanks the dominant and enforced assassin meta back then.

Also, the nerfshot rework was only to get the anti-mobility bombs (made skillshot) and anti-assassin lane Chronoshift (no more W interaction) out of the game because it solved no problem whatsoever pre-Rework Zilean had. Manahunger, overreliance on Q, no worthwhile support utility aside from R. Nothing was solved, and they shoved him into a support role he is sub-par at.

Another meta-enforcing fiasco.

MVDuneCatsJun 15, 20155 votes

{quoted} According to champ.gg: OVERALL PLACEMENT 20 / 22

I'm not saying Zilean is in a good spot. But some champ is always going to be 20/22, even if every champ was in a healthy spot across the board.

manbearswineJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Are you?

According to champ.gg: OVERALL PLACEMENT 20 / 22

no,zilean is 22/22

20/22 is alistar,you know,that guy who is almost permabanned in competitive,picked if not,and very popular in high levels of solo q?

I agree that zilean needs buffs,but can we please not use this garbage "statistics" to justify it?

TaoistMasterJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

no,zilean is 22/22

20/22 is alistar,you know,that guy who is almost permabanned in competitive,picked if not,and very popular in high levels of solo q?

I agree that zilean needs buffs,but can we please not use this garbage "statistics" to justify it?

i disagree, i find numbers useful.

manbearswineJun 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

i disagree, i find numbers useful.

You see that they horrendously misrepresent the state of alistar,yet expect them to be accurate for zilean?

That's not just "numbers",that's classical cherry picking.

GrumpyButtercupJun 15, 20151 votes

Only when numbers accurately reflect the point being made, otherwise it is a logical fallacy that proves nothing. Considering only the placement of a champion in win rate is hardly enough data to determine whether or not that champion is weak.

Rito has consistently said that their goal is not to make every champion globally viable, but that every champion at least has a niche. I think they are doing a pretty good job with that personally. Flaws will always be present, that is the nature of the game.

With that being said, I do agree that Zilean is a bit weak now in comparison. The skill shot is a wonderful idea, but it needs to prioritize champions on bomb pickup better. A point that someone has made before. His passive is much weaker now and should probably be changed but the nerf on his W towards his R is not game shattering. I prefer it because Zilean ult every 30 seconds was annoying.

manbearswineJun 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Rito has consistently said that their goal is not to make every champion globally viable, but that every champion at least has a niche. I think they are doing a pretty good job with that personally. Flaws will always be present, that is the nature of the game.

I really disagree with you,imo they are doing a terrible job,they are playing favorites hard while ignoring the vast majority of champions. They release something like ekko which is basically "if you want cc,damage,waveclear,burst,assassination,roam,and mobility pick me",well then,when do I not pick ekko? when he is numerically underwhelming(aka not right now),and when do I not pick thresh-when someone else is completely overpowered. Now when do I pick sona? If you want to lose is a pretty good time for that...

"Hmm lux has been ignored competitively for years...well...we've ignored her for quite a while(and the mana changes sure didn't help her),so we will give her some minor qol buffs" "OMG AHRI LOST DFG?! QUICK CALL THE ENTIRE BALANCE TEAM,GOTTA DROP BIG BUFFS ON HER QUICKLY!!!"

"Hmmm...kassadin is obnoxious and has really dumb gameplay...let's rework him 70 times and buff and nerf him until I don't even know,clearly someone with such an idiotic kit deserves a lot of attention" "ZYRA SAW SERIOUS PLAY FOR 2 PATCHES?! OMFG,DELETE THIS SHIT,WE NEVER WANT TO SEE THIS THING EVER AGAIN!"

Horrible,horrible job.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 15, 20151 votes

Statistics, LCS and feel of kit all contribute to whether the champion should be adjusted or not. Feral Flare WW was not successful in LCS yet he had 56%+ winrate in soloQ, I don't remember the number. He was really dumb to play against.

Zilean and Alistar don't do shit in soloQ.

Opposite for Katarina and Riven, don't do shit in LCS yet destroy in soloQ; balance includes all aspects not solely for LCS or soloQ.

manbearswineJun 15, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMP3EkxE,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2015-06-15T18:32:01.913+0000)

Statistics, LCS and feel of kit all contribute to whether the champion should be adjusted or not. Feral Flare WW was not successful in LCS yet he had 56%+ winrate in soloQ, I don't remember the number. He was really dumb to play against.

He actually saw quite notable competitive play,I'll agree he was stronger in solo q,but he was very strong in competitive as well.

Zilean and Alistar don't do shit in soloQ.

Open any high elo lolking and tell me what supports do you see. alistar is pretty popular(not sure what his banrate there is),and definitely a very strong champion.(which you would know if you actually played him)

Opposite for Katarina and Riven, don't do shit in LCS yet destroy in soloQ; balance includes all aspects not solely for LCS or soloQ.

I never had some amazing issues with either of them(aside from rivens being exceptionally toxic),riot should stop nerfing champions over the refusal of solo q player to adapt to anything,this isn't good for the variety of the game,but anyway:

Remember pre rework ashe? here's the thing,her winrate increased only slightly after it,and there was a general consensus that she was shit,and in fact look at the magnitude of a buff she had to take to get into the competitive scene.

The problem with winrate worshipers is that you just don't have the understanding to be proven wrong,I could argue for example(to show you that it can misrepresent) that sona is shit right now(despite her winrate),and I have a lot of bot lane experience(and a decent rank) and don't particularly care for her(so I'm not biased),this will also be basically be echoed by any competitive or high solo q support main,but you just won't care,you will stare blankly at her winrate,think of the last time you won/lost against a sona,and tell me that I suck and need to rush RoA on her.

You can't by yourself tell whether a champion is good or bad,and are thus stuck in a loop,you started believing in winrates but you cannot be brought out of it because that would require showing a champion which doesn't fit the pattern,but you don't have the knowledge to recognize a champions strength by your own,and instead just use a combination of confirmation bias and winrates to give you the illusion of understand the strength of champions.

I don't mean this post to be offensive(though it definitely is),but there's just no way of discussing this with you people,you just loop back to winrates immediatly.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 15, 20151 votes

He actually saw quite notable competitive play,I'll agree he was stronger in solo q,but he was very strong in competitive as well.

I've seen him pick or banned in LCS and when he was picked he was countered by a support Janna ending up with average winrate. Competitive team environment tends to be very different from soloQ environment.

Open any high elo lolking and tell me what supports do you see. alistar is pretty popular(not sure what his banrate there is),and definitely a very strong champion.(which you would know if you actually played him)

OK so because Vayne is exceptionally popular that must mean she is overpowered. Alistar 's winrate is below 50% at all elos according to lolking. What about Nautilus? Is he overpowered too? He's everywhere.

tl;dr.

manbearswineJun 15, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMP3EkxE,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2015-06-15T19:45:23.186+0000)

I've seen him pick or banned in LCS and when he was picked he was countered by a support ending up with average winrate. Competitive team environment tends to be very different from soloQ environment.

It's different,but not by much,and he isn't countered by janna,if he was so easy to counter he wouldn't be banned.

alistar is pretty popular(not sure what his banrate there is),and definitely a very strong champion.(which you would know if you actually played him)

OK so because is exceptionally popular that must mean she is overpowered. 's winrate is below 50% at all elos according to lolking.

Vayne is strong,so what?

You know what,I gave you the benefit of the doubt,but you just loop immediately back to winrates like every other winrate sheep,you have no clue how the game works and winrates give you the comforting delusion that you do,you won't give that away,it's like talking to a brick.

What about Nautilus? Is he overpowered too? He's everywhere.

Top tier support

tl;dr.

Classic winrate sheep,reading is hard for you people.

NugnificentJun 15, 20153 votes

This YOU BEEN WARNED guy is Bronze 4, 0LP, like 300 games played total. Don't feed the troll, y'all.

KohaiLuvJun 15, 20154 votes

Actually it is not an automatic for the other team if you pick Zilean. I've played him quite a bit and I think his kit is pretty useful I just think that his Q needs a bit more adjustment, and they need to replace his passive altogether. Other than that it's a pretty good support And it's pretty funny when assassins run off on low health, and then you can Q a bush, and they are in there and you just E away like a baws lmao

chipi99Jun 15, 20153 votes

Veigar Bard Q.Q

On an other note I know its gg to the team that has Zilean after the rework.

KaipopJun 15, 20155 votes

Veigar was buffed back up... His initial changes were terrible but they made him better again and he's not that bad, I play him a lot. Also while bard is not good in solo q that's just the nature of the champion. He was used in competitive play and is good in ranked teams or premade 5s

chipi99Jun 15, 20151 votes

Veigar was suppossed to get a mobility block on the cage.

KaipopJun 15, 20156 votes

Yes and they did add it. However, it's after the stun cage appears. Not the indicator before. Pre-change, the cage would go and people would dash, getting stunned after they completed their dash and were outside of the cage. Now, they stop at the edge of the cage and get stunned.

Maximum ZileanJun 15, 20153 votes

As someone who used to main Zilean according to my name. (I need to change it...)

His main issues now are his Q being hard to land, and not enough reward for actually doing so consistantly (Sure it stuns if you land both). But thats not easy to land at all and the priority system for the bombs seems a bit off at times.

His passive is just garbage now. I can see why they won't change it back to global since it gave invisible power to everyone. But with its current power, its useless. I say it needs a rework.

I also feel his W should reward you for double casting your E, similar to the bomb stun. Basically casting E on the same target twice should give a huge reward. (Like immobilizing enemies, or giving some sort of AP / AD buff to allies)

His R is fine, the cooldown people say is to high early game. But its overpowered in lane if used right.

canpan14Jun 15, 20152 votes

I think he will be changed in the future but they want him to sit out for the time being after he was everywhere last season/worlds.

TaoistMasterJun 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think he will be changed in the future but they want him to sit out for the time being after he was everywhere last season/worlds.

for the time being..

I see what you there...

Voluug13Jun 15, 20159 votes

Where is Zed's nerfwork then?

canpan14Jun 15, 20153 votes

Zed has a good technical kit (Like lee) whlie zileans was simple and had very little counterplay (instant bombs).

Voluug13Jun 15, 20157 votes

Both are equally low on counterplay, dont try to kid yourself into thinking otherwise. Simple or complex both can lack counterplay. In the end both are low counterplay high counterpick (Old Zilean was weak to range and/or sustain, Zed is weak against CC and point&click), but Zilean was a counterpick while Zed is generalistic pick. Zilean was the ''fuck U assassins'' made form, but otherwise was subpar, while in botlane he was a counterpick too, but way way more niche that mid.

Overall Old Zilean was only overbearing if he counterpicked you, while Zed is not opressive only if you counterpick him.

And no, item 3157 is not a ''Zed is balanced'' valid argument.

canpan14Jun 15, 20152 votes

You must not have watched the end of last season. Zilean was pretty much picked into anything. Zed there is actually stuff to dodge and see where he puts his shadows. Zilean was 100% point and click with bombs. I hate zed as much as the next guy but as long as I do a good job of dodging his Q's it isn't bad.

Voluug13Jun 15, 20157 votes

Of course he was picked into anything, if last season's end was basically the apex of the assassin meta. Had it been a more mage centric meta with Ziggs or Xerath, Zilean could not have been touched with a 10-feet pole. That he was finally picked a lot in pro play only makes his (ex) counterpick status even more clear: He was good in that meta because his old kit allowed him to screw assassins, but pretty much nothing else.

Oh, and dodging skillshots =/= counterplay. Counterplay passes much more through decision making that twitch god reflex. This is not a fighting game. Being good at the game is more important than mechanical skill with a single champion.

DraginathJun 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Of course he was picked into anything, if last season's end was basically the apex of the assassin meta. Had it been a more mage centric meta with Ziggs or Xerath, Zilean could not have been touched with a 10-feet pole. That he was finally picked a lot in pro play only makes his (ex) counterpick status even more clear: He was good in that meta because his old kit allowed him to screw assassins, but pretty much nothing else.

Oh, and dodging skillshots =/= counterplay. Counterplay passes much more through decision making that twitch god reflex. This is not a fighting game. Being good at the game is more important than mechanical skill with a single champion.

This is a very good point, and I think it is something that many players tend to ignore. Zilean was obnoxious in the area he was designed to be obnoxious in. Too often people just say "oh, build this" or "do that" and think that equates counterplay. It is not only gated by how a player chooses to respond but to the number of options said player has in their response.

People say all the time to dodge nidalee's spears or build a QSS to deal with the likes of suppression. While these are great tactics as far as dealing with these threats, when those tactics are the only option, it is no longer counterplay. It goes back to the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". That statement is about not only the choice we make, but the options we have. Any time we see something become "do this or you will have a rough time" then something is broken.

There are so many factors that play into a champs effectiveness, from numbers to team comp to personal style etc. Saying "build this and you're good to go" trounces all of this and pigeonholes the player. When that happens, something is wrong.

Celeste BenalJun 15, 20152 votes

Stop building him with 21 utility. He does a shit-tone of damage with his Q. So build him like an APC. He doesn't need all that uitility. I play him as a support with 21/0/9 masteries and its hilarious how much poke he has. Get a stun off early and its pretty much a guaranteed kill for your ADC.

With a little CDR he can spam abilities all day.

Mid-game its so funny to perma-speed myself back into the fight. E..W.E...W.E... I'm back!

And your team-mates will love you for saving their butts with your ult.

B1naryB0tJun 15, 201516 votes

Former zil main, his problem is that his rework significantly dropped his power level. His Q reward wasn't significantly increased while it created an impossible to land skillshot. His E used to be WAYY better, especially since any speed boost past ~80% goes pretty much unnoticed. His W is now extremely weak since you can't use it for ult, and early game his ult is on a much MUCH longer CD.

I think they need to give him a more impactful W and just keep his Q on an ammo system. Also make the Q either easier to land or more impactful when you land it.

EDIT: Also his passive. It used to be amazing, but now it's just absolute shit.

TaoistMasterJun 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Former zil main, his problem is that his rework significantly dropped his power level. His Q reward wasn't significantly increased while it created an impossible to land skillshot. His E used to be WAYY better, especially since any speed boost past ~80% goes pretty much unnoticed. His W is now extremely weak since you can't use it for ult, and early game his ult is on a much MUCH longer CD.

I think they need to give him a more impactful W and just keep his Q on an ammo system. Also make the Q either easier to land or more impactful when you land it.

EDIT: Also his passive. It used to be amazing, but now it's just absolute shit.

so what you are saying is..

the rework trashed him?

do you like his current kit at all? i like the Q being a skill shot and having the stun on it.

B1naryB0tJun 15, 201518 votes

It absolutely trashed him. I like and dislike Q being a skillshot. I like that he has a skillshot, but I hate the amount of reward for the difficulty. The damage is lackluster and 99.9999% of the time the stun doesn't even proc, let alone be capitalized by the adc. Also the bomb pickup is really weird, it'll go right at their feet yet latch to a minion 10 feet away.

But past that, I think that he needs a new kit. Possibly a bit more to do with TIME and stuff. (Seems kinda strange half of his identity is throwing bombs when he's a fucking time god)

doiminat0r3600Jun 15, 20152 votes

I just checked and now he is 22/22 for the win rate.

TerchioJun 15, 20151 votes

He said:

OVERALL PLACEMENT

... which is still 20/22. Win percentage is probably a better gauge, though... I can't tell what goes into overall placement, and it feels like pink wards may be part of it... for whatever reason.

But... #21 is Lux. #22 is Kennen. Yeah...

AbyssphereJun 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He said:

... which is still 20/22. Win percentage is probably a better gauge, though... I can't tell what goes into overall placement, and it feels like pink wards may be part of it... for whatever reason.

But... #21 is Lux. #22 is Kennen. Yeah...

What does Lux and Kennen being below him make you think? I can imagine they're poorly performing supports, so I don't think them being below Zilean discredits the ranking. If you're mentioning them because you don't consider them supports then that says that Zilean is the worst support bot lane who people actually consider a support.

Pretty much everything goes into overall placement btw. Kills, assists, damage, deaths, ward score, wards destroyed, healing and just winrate. So it's quite a comprehensive ranking.

TerchioJun 17, 20151 votes

Yeah, I mentioned Lux and Kennen (mostly Kennen) to say that him being at #20 is still terribad when non-supports are grabbing the lower spots.

As far as overall placement goes, counting wards sounds jacked up. Rank a champ higher because the players that use them place more wards? That seems like an arbitrary stat to rate off of. Not like there's really any way for an enemy to drop that number. That's summoner playstyle stat more than champion ability stat.

TaoistMasterJun 15, 20152 votes

page 2?

for the beautiful lady, Zilean?

I'M JOKING!

please.. no one do that. although im pretty sure there isn't any zilean hentai out there.. don't even try.

GrumpyButtercupJun 15, 20152 votes

Rule 34 has made your nightmares a reality.

Blue Moon WolfJun 15, 20152 votes

good lord his deaths are high, you would assume with his ult that wouldn't be the case .__.

SorgklaanJun 15, 20152 votes

His passive is beyond garbage.

DraginathJun 15, 20152 votes

I think that the changes to Zilean, while well-intentioned, kinda miss the mark. I love the idea of Q being a skillshot, but the ability itself is just unresponsive on so many levels. Tossing it to target location, how quickly it sticks to a target, the target it actually chooses, and the 2-bomb interaction are all gates blocking this ability from being as cool as it could be. It really needs to be cleaned up.

Rewind has kinda become a bit of a relic in the kit now that it can no longer be used to reduce his ult's CD. This was only exacerbated by the fact the Q and E's CD's were reduced (as they should be). It just doesn't have much punch like it used to. I have always hated Zilean's passive. Not only is it the least interactive passive in the game, it just isn't that meaningful when it comes down to it. The way the game has evolved, getting to that next level a few seconds before your opponent is no longer that big swing in tempo that it used to be, especially when it only affects nearby allies.

At the same time, both of these abilities have huge potential for creating a very unique and rewarding gameplay if done right. Zilean is a mage that is forced to relive the destruction of his home again and again and again, each time becoming a little wiser, each time becoming more jaded, and all his Passive ("Heightened Learning") does is "Increase experience gain by 8%)? Seriously?

I think it would be really neat it there was some cool interaction between Rewind and Heightened Learning. Rewind is little more than a button to push right now, a mana sink. Why not make pushing that button, especially multiple times, become an engine to make Zilean more powerful? Every time he rewinds, he comes back with a little more wisdom. Some examples of interaction are:

Some sort of stacking benefit whenever he rewinds: More rewinds = more benefit. Give him a reason to just keep spending that mana. Maybe he can gain some sort of health regeneration that gets stronger with each W.
Maybe he can be gated like Cass and Bard, so after X rewinds, he gets this buff or that buff.
Rewind empowers his next ability to do something extra
Rewind leaves a part of Zilean behind that can be interacted with to do something unique and interesting

The list goes on. Zilean's entire story is this idea that he is learning and growing every time he turns back the clock. His gameplay on the Rift should reflect that. Rewind also should have a passive component to it. It doesn't have to be much but should make ranking up the ability a little more enticing.

KohaiLuvJun 15, 20152 votes

All the time gimmicks went to the spawn child named Ekko. Zilean is getting no love cause of it. Honestly, he should be getting the fancy rewinds, or have his bombs go off a bit faster than normal. I love Zilean support, but I don't know how the hell people are able to play him mid