https://i.gyazo.com/9376666cad4bb00bce3126be3b6b62a9.png
thornmail needs to be reworked away from being an always-on punishment for auto-attackers, not be made to shit on their sustain, too
christ's sake, this is going to be absolutely awful
Salron7 votesI guess opening death recap and seeing that I did 600 damage to myself with Thornmail is going to happen more often now Can't wait to be outplayed by Thornmail for doing my job as an ADC
Meep Man2 votesThe damage was nerfed as compensation.
Salron2 votesHealing is also reduced If you have lifesteal the ratio of healing:damage reflected Shouldn't change that much after this change unless the enemy had a ludicrous amount of armor
Not to mention that this will severly hamper users of Runaan's who will get GW applied to them even if they're not hitting the thornmail directly
TyroneWatermelon1 votesThat is if you have no mr and lifesteal at all
Ahristocats4 voteswait what did i just read?
[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AFdqA94F,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-16T22:54:03.318+0000)
reworked away from being a punishment for auto-attackers
i'm sorry? there is a reason you don't hit a tank and generally it's because they're you know, tanky
but now, instead of making you losing MORE DPS by attacking them like riot should do because tanks suck they're making you losing MORE HP as you will heal less from attacking a tank
i see no problems
Penns4 votesTank balance aside.. whats the "reason you dont hit a tank"? Thats literally the adcs job isnt it?
Ahristocats1 votesThe adc job is to turn on his brain and check what target he should hit instead of just mindlessly right clicking everyone
and yes, this was a thing in season 2/season 3
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AFdqA94F,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-17T05:01:48.295+0000)
The adc job is to turn on his brain and check what target he should hit instead of just mindlessly right clicking everyone
and yes, this was a thing in season 2/season 3
And if there is no other target they can safely auto attack but the tank should they just do nothing?
Ahristocats1 votesif there is only one target to hit then what's the problem? just hit the tank? no one will destroy you
Thornmail damage is being nerfed heavily new thornmail will reduce your lifesteal from 20 hp with each AA to 10 hp with each AA and meanwhile you're losing 25% of ~~300 which is nearly 75 damage (and probably more as thornmail users like malphite and rammus have more armor)
which means now you're being way less punished for hitting a tank than before, EXCEPT if there are multiple targets to hit
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AFdqA94F,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-17T05:40:50.906+0000)
if there is only one target to hit then what's the problem? just hit the tank? no one will destroy you
Thornmail damage is being nerfed heavily new thornmail will reduce your lifesteal from 20 hp with each AA to 10 hp with each AA and meanwhile you're losing 25% of ~~300 which is nearly 75 damage (and probably more as thornmail users like malphite and rammus have more armor)
which means now you're being way less punished for hitting a tank than before, EXCEPT if there are multiple targets to hit
Are you implying that if no one is in an ADC's safe AA range that no one on the enemy team can attack them?
Plenty of champions have threat radii larger than most ADCs.
Ahristocats1 votesthen if they aren't in ADC's safe AA range, but they can attack them
nothing changed except their ability to not draintank tanks to survive and this is great, because last time i checked tanks aren't supposed to be HP packs for ADCs
if you want to survive, build resistances, not lifesteal you can build lifesteal, but just like any healing in the game it should have a counter
Rexxiee2 votes[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AFdqA94F,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-16T23:22:11.675+0000)
wait what did i just read?
i'm sorry? there is a reason you don't hit a tank and generally it's because they're you know, tanky
but now, instead of making you losing MORE DPS by attacking them like riot should do because tanks suck they're making you losing MORE HP as you will heal less from attacking a tank
i see no problems
But adcs are supposed to hit tanks...
Thornmail is a bad item for the game health because it punishes you for playing the game correctly...Ignoring the frontline as a dps champ is the bad play, not the other way around...
Or are you going to tell me i should completely ignore the frontlines and flash into the enemy backline to hit them as an adc? You're diamond not silver right?
Penns2 votesWait Riot listened to the tank main memes lel. Imo add 50% armor pen to IE, tanks literally negate all the stats you bought with just 2-3 armor items hehe
Slythion1 votesgr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8
MinaZer01 votessorry it has been decided , no turning back now
Rengooo1 votesSeems like a good change so long as it doesn't become a must buy for every tank. Gives tanks a way to deal with life steal abusers better, but will now at least mean you aren't going to murder yourself by aa'ing it when you have no life steal.
Titanium701 votesDO you really think this change is good? I don't know.
Say you eat 500 DMG from a Crit with 300 Armor.
Current: 75 Reflexion DMG + 75 Armor DMG / 100 Heal (assuming common 20%); 200 with 40% New: 75 Reflexion DMG + 0 / 50 Heal; 100
With this example you deal 25 less DMG with the new one but you'll be a 50% less effective HP battery for LS-Stackers. However numbers are getting worse with less total DMG and more Armor... which... IS ESXACTLY WHAT THE TANK REWORK WAS SUPPOSED TO DO!
From a raw stat perspective thornmail just got worse for it's main users while being more effective on HP stackers that don't want to assist the enemy Carry.
Pls correct me if I'm wrong - but that's it, right?
Obviously: In a Teamgame such as League GWs are good! And Hurricane users will cry! Still... I see a sad Rammus/Malph
Sir Fuzzi1 votesMy problem is this probably doesn't solve the guys like Vladimir, Mundo and Swain who require wounds but probably aren't going to fall for, you know, this.
Two separate problems, probably, but it'd be nice if this wasn't their excuse for wounds on a tank.
I love Nowi1 voteswelp
JavelinJoe1 votesAnd suddenly, most if not all of the crit ADCs who used/needed hurricane are no longer viable due to thronmail
Meep Man1 votesThis has been the most asked for change on Thornmail for years now.
Big Lincoln2 votesby silvers
Troll for Trump1 votesRemember all those posts asking for grevious wounds on thornmails? I member
SheepNamedChance1 votesRemember all those posts asking for grevious wounds on thornmails? I member
I do too.
Its a good change, especially since if theres an actual tank you should be building 
. An item which renders 45% of a tanks gold purchases null.
Reaper Soraka1 votespepperidge farm remembers.
Salron1 votesApparently this wasn't supposed to go on PBE https://twitter.com/moobeat/status/864664906179674112
Reaper Soraka1 votesI can't say I cheer for this one...but I'm not entirely against it.
I have mixed emotions for this because Thornmail's returned damage wasn't enough to even deal with lifesteal before. But now...well it won't deal with lifesteal anyways because it won't do any damage back to the attacker.
Slap in the face to rakas everywhere.
Rebonack1 votesI would vote for Thorn applying GW OnHit, possibly with some magical bleed damage. Since getting shoulder-checked by a beefy dude wearing spiked armor would hurt.
That would give the GW a bit more counter-play (stay out of range) while also making the Thorn wearer more of a threat (can pick who to poke, deals a little more damage). As an added bonus, this would make it a not totally terrible choice against AP drain-tanks, too.
