Ok so like, what problems are these Shen changes supposed to address?

Lux Tizer·Apr 10, 2017·12 votes·1,022 views

-Nerf his ult but give it low health scaling so it has the same problem it always had (You won't be damaging the person if he uses it offensively, and still saves teammates from dying defensively) -Removes the Q damage from minions so pushing without items is COMPLETELY impossible -30 energy off his dash (lol)

Nothing to fix him being the lowest damage top laner in the game? Nothing to fix his third to last gold earned for top laners? Nothing to fix his second to last kills earned for top laners?

24 Comments

Shuyin178Apr 10, 20174 votes

The way it was explained, it's a pro-play nerf and a solo-Q buff on his ult. Pros tended to use Shen's ult at the start of conflicts giving their divers/carries ridiculous sized shields at the start of fights. Solo-Q tended to use his ult much later when the target's HP was about half or lower.

So this is going to nerf pro-play's shield while buffing solo-Q's shield.

PeepingPeafowlApr 10, 20177 votes

I wish they didn't touch the Q then, because that is just a straight nerf to every play style.

Lux TizerApr 10, 20171 votes

He already has massive gold, massive damage, and massive pushing problems. Might as well make that worse right ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Janna mìdApr 10, 20173 votes

That's hardly a buff with the cooldown increase

Shuyin178Apr 10, 20171 votes

If you didn't notice, a number of solo-Q shens barely use their ult, maybe 3 or 4 times max a game. It's off cooldown way more often than that.

Janna mìdApr 10, 20173 votes

I'm a semi-main shen (he's my 2nd highest mastery after galio (rip)) and most of the time my ult is on cd and a lot of my teammates die because of that (i can't save anyone), and this nerf will only make it worse A lot of solo q shens barely use their ult either cuz the ult already got an incredibly high cd (and also there's some bad shens that quite don't pay attention to their teammates, so this will be a nerf for good shens especially)

Sèx Craved EveApr 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The way it was explained, it's a pro-play nerf and a solo-Q buff on his ult. Pros tended to use Shen's ult at the start of conflicts giving their divers/carries ridiculous sized shields at the start of fights. Solo-Q tended to use his ult much later when the target's HP was about half or lower.

So this is going to nerf pro-play's shield while buffing solo-Q's shield.

Actually, the shield value is 10 shield lower at 30% hp at level 16. Also, the cooldown has been increased at all ranks. He's being nerfed. It is for competitive, though. I think Riot wants players to play the strongest soloq meta champions they can. You'll climb higher that way, and their needs to be more challenger players overall for the LCS to continue to exist.

More thoughts that need not be said from me.

Arcus DiabolusApr 10, 20173 votes

They just need to stop touching Shen. Just leave him alone. None of these changes are being accepted by anyone who plays him.

ScissorsNstuffApr 10, 20171 votes

did you forget they were changing and adding like 5 or 6 items? Its tank rework time

OleandervineApr 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

did you forget they were changing and adding like 5 or 6 items? Its tank rework time

That's not the point. Shen already cannot lane for shit, and he's got possibly one of the worst laning phases I've ever seen in the game, with only one ability that grants 3 boosted attacks every 8s. Removing the capability of his 3 boosted autos from Q affecting minions will leave Shen with 0 abilities, that's right 0, from affecting anything but champions. His AA damage is garbage, which means that he has to rely on Sunfire Cape even harder once this nerf goes through. Shen's kit should have something to help him kill minions, because needing to spend 1100 gold for Bami's to just be able to lane is stupid.

Sèx Craved EveApr 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's not the point. Shen already cannot lane for shit, and he's got possibly one of the worst laning phases I've ever seen in the game, with only one ability that grants 3 boosted attacks every 8s. Removing the capability of his 3 boosted autos from Q affecting minions will leave Shen with 0 abilities, that's right 0, from affecting anything but champions. His AA damage is garbage, which means that he has to rely on Sunfire Cape even harder once this nerf goes through. Shen's kit should have something to help him kill minions, because needing to spend 1100 gold for Bami's to just be able to lane is stupid.

They'll still deal percentage based damage to the minions. Currently, they also deal BONUS damage to minions, on top of percentage based damage. They're removing the massive bonus damage to minions. I believe they're adding small flat damage to his Q. Not sure if that change was reverted or not, though.

ScissorsNstuffApr 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That's not the point. Shen already cannot lane for shit, and he's got possibly one of the worst laning phases I've ever seen in the game, with only one ability that grants 3 boosted attacks every 8s. Removing the capability of his 3 boosted autos from Q affecting minions will leave Shen with 0 abilities, that's right 0, from affecting anything but champions. His AA damage is garbage, which means that he has to rely on Sunfire Cape even harder once this nerf goes through. Shen's kit should have something to help him kill minions, because needing to spend 1100 gold for Bami's to just be able to lane is stupid.

You cannot just ignore the new items. This "sunfire cape" you refer to is getting changed and in some context could be called an nonexistent item made up of other nonexistent items you are arguing shen needs. For all you know there will be a new starting item for tanks

You can't really hold a serious discussion about shen changes while ignoring the item OVERHAUL coming with it

OleandervineApr 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You cannot just ignore the new items. This "sunfire cape" you refer to is getting changed and in some context could be called an nonexistent item made up of other nonexistent items you are arguing shen needs. For all you know there will be a new starting item for tanks

You can't really hold a serious discussion about shen changes while ignoring the item OVERHAUL coming with it

I'm not discussing items. I'm discussing his kit. A kit should have the functionality to do something in the lane without relying solely on items for wave clear. Every other champion with poor wave clear can at the very least use something in their kit to help kill minions, even if it's not effective. Shen has pathetic wave clear, and he can't push his lane without buying Bami's Cinder. I don't think there's any champion that has such abysmal wave clear in their kit that they have to use items to push. Even Poppy has her Q, and while it's not the most effective, it is more effective than Shen's 3 taps before he has to wait 8 seconds.

ScissorsNstuffApr 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not discussing items. I'm discussing his kit. A kit should have the functionality to do something in the lane without relying solely on items for wave clear. Every other champion with poor wave clear can at the very least use something in their kit to help kill minions, even if it's not effective. Shen has pathetic wave clear, and he can't push his lane without buying Bami's Cinder. I don't think there's any champion that has such abysmal wave clear in their kit that they have to use items to push. Even Poppy has her Q, and while it's not the most effective, it is more effective than Shen's 3 taps before he has to wait 8 seconds.

ok so he's bad at wave clear. Does shen need to be good at wave clear?

Because their might be a good item for that now and he does ALOT of other stuff

OleandervineApr 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ok so he's bad at wave clear. Does shen need to be good at wave clear?

Because their might be a good item for that now and he does ALOT of other stuff

It's not that he needs to be good at it, it's that he needs something so that his lane isn't instantly lost when he leaves. Every other champion who's got weak laning or poor waveclear at least have more than one ability or have their autoattacks to help out with laning.

ScissorsNstuffApr 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's not that he needs to be good at it, it's that he needs something so that his lane isn't instantly lost when he leaves. Every other champion who's got weak laning or poor waveclear at least have more than one ability or have their autoattacks to help out with laning.

again, you cant even determine the value of such things without knowing what item changes will occur

but in any case I don't really think shen HAS to be good at this. He wont be useless midgame if the new items aren't useless

OleandervineApr 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

again, you cant even determine the value of such things without knowing what item changes will occur

but in any case I don't really think shen HAS to be good at this. He wont be useless midgame if the new items aren't useless

A kit has to have it what it needs prior to items, otherwise, the items create a parasitic relationship with the champion. For instance, if you nerf like, say Master Yi, around the strength of him with the Bloodrazor, and then proceed to nerf Bloodrazor into the ground, that leaves Master Yi in a shit position. This scenario actually happened last year, and it has taken ages for Yi to actually recover some from those nerfs to himself and the item. This kind of scenario shouldn't exist. Items should supplement a kit, not replace or add in elements to the kit that the champion needs to be functional. A champion should have all the elements they need to function, and at current, Shen has parts of his game that are non-functioning unless he has Sunfire Cape. Shen shouldn't be dependent on the Cape to kill minions. Shen should have a little something in his kit, better than 3 boosted autos on Q, to help him deal with non-champions.

ScissorsNstuffApr 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A kit has to have it what it needs prior to items, otherwise, the items create a parasitic relationship with the champion.

gooby plis

Its shen, he's going to be toxic no matter what lol. Its literally part of his niche

GayFluffyUnicornApr 11, 20172 votes

Ehh camille has very poor waveclear. GP as well early on (little hint: he NEEDS items to be able to waveclear). Vlad. Fiora. There is plenty of champs who need items to waveclear. So that myth of yours already debunked. Btw if you wanna push the wave you buy tiamat on shen. Every decent soloQ shen i saw gets tiamat into titanic. Or going tiamat into sunfire first.

OleandervineApr 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Ehh camille has very poor waveclear. GP as well early on (little hint: he NEEDS items to be able to waveclear). Vlad. Fiora. There is plenty of champs who need items to waveclear. So that myth of yours already debunked. Btw if you wanna push the wave you buy tiamat on shen. Every decent soloQ shen i saw gets tiamat into titanic. Or going tiamat into sunfire first.

Fiora's Q, W, and E can all be used against minions. Gangplank also has his barrels and his Parrley. Camille can use Q and W to help kill minions. Vlad has his Q, W, and E to use to help kill minions. Again, all of these champions don't clear minions effectively, but every single one of them can lane better than Shen and his 3 empowered autos on an 8 second CD. They can actually use their abilities to kill minions, AND all of them focus on building damage, so Fiora, GP, and Camille can resort to using their autos to help clear minions. Vlad's spells boost, so he does get more effective at it. The point is, these champions don't need the items to waveclear, they help them be more effective at it. Shen so far is the only champion who desperately needs items to push his lane any amount whatsoever.

Asayake 5150glowApr 10, 20171 votes

{quoted} Shen's kit should have something to help him kill minions, because needing to spend 1100 gold for Bami's to just be able to lane is stupid.

No, no, it shouldn't.

Shen is the one champion able to split from across the map without needing TP to join his team. To make up for this, his pushing power should be shit (his dueling shouldn't be really bad though, and it isn't).

I remember prerework Shen had terrible splitting. Titanic Hydra didn't even exist back then.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 11, 20172 votes

Yeah don't even try to reason with these guys. I've noticed that shen seems to be the boards favorite victim. Literally the worst champ in the game when in actuality he can duel A LOT of toplaners and on top of that lane bullies like darius and WIN these trades. Ofc they don't seem to understand the game when they only mention his "one dmg ability" while ignoring his other strong dueling mechanics like a shield, slow AND AA block. His Q passive dmg with grasp hurts A LOT. And if shens laning phase would be so shitty that he is literally unplayable without getting abused he wouldn't see pro play like every game. Not even his ult would justify that. I mean think of GP. He seems to be the PERFECT LCS champ. Global ult, incredible scaling, good splitpushing power and waveclear but his laning phase is so atrocious he owuld just get abused 24/7 and would need his jungler to camp him all game long.

Asayake 5150glowApr 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah don't even try to reason with these guys. I've noticed that shen seems to be the boards favorite victim. Literally the worst champ in the game when in actuality he can duel A LOT of toplaners and on top of that lane bullies like darius and WIN these trades. Ofc they don't seem to understand the game when they only mention his "one dmg ability" while ignoring his other strong dueling mechanics like a shield, slow AND AA block. His Q passive dmg with grasp hurts A LOT. And if shens laning phase would be so shitty that he is literally unplayable without getting abused he wouldn't see pro play like every game. Not even his ult would justify that. I mean think of GP. He seems to be the PERFECT LCS champ. Global ult, incredible scaling, good splitpushing power and waveclear but his laning phase is so atrocious he owuld just get abused 24/7 and would need his jungler to camp him all game long.

Yeah, they'd just pick Gnar and keep him from ever touching minions, in pro play.

Also I think Shen's a bit of a hard counter to Darius because he can block autos, aka passive stacks.

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 11, 20171 votes

They gave him bonus damage against champions on his Q. They increased the dash width on his E and reduced its cost. They nerfed his ult to only work well on low-Health targets.

Aren't these exactly the changes you Shen mains were all asking for?