Gotta love how people can describe how to play zed and lee sin like a god

ForgiveColour·Feb 4, 2015·2 votes·864 views

but they cant climb with them why?

18 Comments

ZmuecatFeb 4, 20153 votes

Because they can't play them. Because they get bad teams. Because they don't play those roles. Because they don't like playing those champions (because they're hipsters or just don't like them). Because those are heavily contested champion pick/bans and don't get them every game. Because they're bad.

Go ahead and pick what your favorite response is.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20151 votes

more like they are stuck in elo hell bcus of bed teammates holding them back from challenjour, gg

ZmuecatFeb 4, 20151 votes

Option 2.

Good job, here's a cookie. item 2054

SEKAIFeb 4, 20152 votes

Because team work is not the strong suit of solo queue, especially lower tier?

DiamonesdFeb 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Because team work is not the strong suit of solo queue, especially lower tier?

why would team work matter if these champions were truly as OP as the bronzies/silvers/golds think they are?

SEKAIFeb 4, 20152 votes

Do you need to be a film maker to criticise a film?

Same logic applies, you don't need to main the dang thing to judge whether he is OP or not, all it takes is a couple of brain cells.

Seeing a champ that gets pick/ban in every tourney, 25 - 30% pick rate across the board and this has been going on for a 3 full years, do you really NOT think about the possibility that he is just broken?

And please, don't bring on the "fun" factor, Yi got a popularity spike from his original 6% to 30% when FF was released, because apparently he became "Fun" somehow, then now he dropped back again. Fun factor is pure bs and you know it.

Same thing with Zed.

TilomentryFeb 4, 20151 votes

I wonder if one of the reasons Lee is "fun" is because he is never put in a position where he is just plain can't do anything.

If Nautilus gets fed but his team is behind, then there is nothing Naut can do to carry his team. But Lee can always build damage and go around assassinating people with his amazing ratios.

If MasterYi falls behind in the jungle, then he will lack the gold and items to be useful. His damage will be laughable and he has nothing else to offer his team so he may as well not even be there. But if Lee falls behind, he always tons of utility to fall back on. Lee can always slow, knock back, shield, and reveal enemies.

Lee always has a "game play fantasy" he can fill regardless of how the game goes. I can't really think of any other champion that can do that

SEKAIFeb 4, 20151 votes

Riot should totally do an experiment, just nerf Lee across the board, gut him like all the problematic champs before him (they should have went through that last time).

Lee would still be there for a week or 2, then what they will find is people will move on to the next "fun" champ.

Some people find Fun only when in control, but if you want absolute control over your toon then I am sorry you're playing the wrong game genre since Moba/Arts is really not for that.

I agree with what you said, especially this

I wonder if one of the reasons Lee is "fun" is because he is never put in a position where he is just plain can't do anything.
Lee always has a "game play fantasy" he can fill regardless of how the game goes. I can't really think of any other champion that can do that

There is J4 who can sorta do that, but he is not the biggest issue atm so I can let him go for now.

Kuroi86Feb 4, 20152 votes

Just because a champ is on the strong side doesn't mean they are as faceroll/instawin as some people like to claim.

Katarina, even at her strongest, still takes skill to get the first few kills to snowball. Akali, requires the enemy to make certain mistakes for her to get rolling. Riven, godly unforgiving of mistakes, whoever makes the first mistake loses a trade, period.

Not to mention, even if one of these champs gets fed, they can still be shut down with the right team work and a mistake on the winning teams part.
This is called a team based game because a great team can always demolish a godly player with a crappy team.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20151 votes

i have played bronze games before, and its easy to solo carry a game so why cant those people do the same with these "op champs holding me from challengejor"

Kuroi86Feb 4, 20151 votes

If you're against bad players, sure, you can solo carry. If you're against people that actually learn their mechanics, their strategies, that are steadily improving and are worthy of climbing to silver/gold or higher instead of needing to remain in bronze V, then you will find yourself getting stomped unless you have a good team to back you up.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20151 votes

yeah no you cant find that in bronze all you need to do is tilt who you are laning against and thats a win

Kuroi86Feb 4, 20151 votes

Which also means if you can't make them tilt you lose. xD

SEKAIFeb 4, 20151 votes

If you can only identify faceroll champs as OP then you just aren't made to talk about balancing the game.

Lee is beyond strong, he is broken, Zed on the other hand tho is currently slightly out of the fotm box approaching the meta bracket.

Let me ask you, would you prefer to have your fav champ to have all the possible mechanics in your champ's kit or do you want it as simple as possible along the lines of Kat, Akali, Garen or Yi?

If I were to be very selfish, I would gladly take more stuff any day of the year. Why? Because I wouldn't ever need to even to worry about being counterpicked, counterbuilt or counterplayed in all situations. Tell me when is a GOOD time to first pick Garen, Akali, Kat or Yi? Then tell me when is a BAD time to first pick Lee Sin?

Except Akali who imo really needs to get broken down and redo. And I agree her kit is stupid, but

What is harder, spending a few hours learning the kit of a Lee Sin so you can apply to every situation in any game by building the same thing over and over, or learning when to pick champs for different matchups, build differently depending on situations and trying to out-smart a guy who has a kit that is twice as big as yours with more utility, no resource and more damage by default? Which one actually takes SKILL?

Riven, godly unforgiving of mistakes, whoever makes the first mistake loses a trade, period.

Funny how you say that about Riven instead of on Zed or Lee, because it's just as bad if not worse if you lose one or 2 kills to them.

Kuroi86Feb 4, 20151 votes

If you can only identify faceroll champs as OP then you just aren't made to talk about balancing the game.

Did I say any champ was op? If you really want to get into a debate on that then you're going to quickly hate me because I don't fall into the same trap many do. I don't just say "OPNERF" I debate a champs strengths against their gatings. Do they have sufficient gatings on them to justify their strengths?

Except Akali who imo really needs to get broken down and redo. And I agree her kit is stupid, but

Honestly, she just needs a little more counter play options. Right now it falls down to whether you get a champ who has a good early game and are smart enough to grab a pink, then just drop it in her shroud and pop her because you csed better than her up to this point. It's counter play, but not enough, it leaves her with a linear fighting style and only leaves a very linear means of counter play which is meh.

What is harder, spending a few hours learning the kit of a Lee Sin so you can apply to every situation in any game by building the same thing over and over, or learning when to pick champs for different matchups, build differently depending on situations and trying to out-smart a guy who has a kit that is twice as big as yours with more utility, no resource and more damage by default? Which one actually takes SKILL?

Depends, do you want to be a one champ wonder who is useless if your champ of choice gets banned or do you want to have viable options for any situation so that even in bad match ups you are capable of helping get a stronger player fed and getting yourself carried into the next game?

Funny how you say that about Riven instead of on Zed or Lee, because it's just as bad if not worse if you lose one or 2 kills to them.

You're more likely to run into Riven in lane over Lee. Zed for his strengths has a little more forgiveness as his assassions are tied into his ultimate which leaves a decent window of opportunity for you to counter him and possibly survive. Of course if Zed does ult you, it's likely a clue that you've already made the mistake of letting him harass you down without enough harass returned and you're not low enough for him to assassinate. Lee for how strong he is, is still heavily reliant upon getting early kills. Whether I'm playing Renekton, Malphite, Cho'Gath or Pantheon, unless Lee gets early kills, he's not scary to me and typically fights with him end up with him near death kicking me away and me laughing as I've still got 60% health or more. Riven for all her strengths, isn't really scary to me in lane, most match ups I know how to trade with her to avoid her getting a lead on me. By the time she is ready to go in, I just kill her because I've made sure to harass her and trade better. When she comes back to lane I'm again being smart, I don't let her immediately go in and try to take back a kill with her damage, I force her to either lose a trade or I just walk away after ccing her. Why I'm not scared of Riven is I figured out what she hates, Riven cannot stand not being fed.

SEKAIFeb 4, 20151 votes

The reason why I agree on Akali being badly designed because she doesn't offer any counterplay by default, her counterplay is to simply not feed her which is a bad way to balance anything, she shares similar problem with Zed and Lee but less extreme.

Her problem is the very fact her kit is all about getting higher stats than the enemies, if she does she will just keep increasing the gap until the game eventually ends.

Zed while problematic, his problem is the fact if you're on even ground with him you will be forced to either group kill or build Zhonya every time you're laning against him, disregard whether you actually need the item and it's not like the item is somewhat cheap, it's an expensive 3300 gone (can you even survive long enough before getting the item is another matter). And he doesn't need to stress over how to escape after assassinating.

Lee is never NOT useful, if he gets fed he ends the game, if he isn't he is still a very useful tank, he is never without his usefulness and that's Bad game design. Because this isn't a shooter, or fighter game or whatever, where your toon can do alot of stuff and it's teamwork to combine everybody's teamwork together to make something, moba/arts is a genre about having limited kits and covering each other's back while utilising each other's strength. Having a kit that is just vastly superior to everything and is always a huge asset ignoring team comp, counterplay/build or how fed he is (and you need 2 - 3 people to actually outplay him due to his massive kit, next to no resource, mobility and it's cd), is just not right.

I ban Lee every time I am in Ranked now, or I request people to ban him when I am not first pick.

Riven imo is ok, all you need do to for the most part is play safe until lvl 3 - 4 then prob get jungler, or get some tanky dudes against her.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20151 votes

board told me that zed is just wr smash key insta kill squishy, lee sin qqr to engage and do 100-90 to adc and that they can be 20-0 before 10 mins

SEKAIFeb 4, 20151 votes

I ain't gonna bother with exaggerations.

Those 2 need to get a look at, simple as that, especially Lee I am fine if they fix Zed later since Lee has been there for more than just a couple of years already.

Also J4, his scaling imo needs to get a close look too, he needs to do less damage when building pure tank. But other than his damage problem he is what a true mobile bruiser should be, not Lee.

The concept of Lee works in fighting games, but I am sorry, LoL isn't a fighting game, not when other 80 or so % of the roster sticks with with the philosophy that champs must be designed with limited functionality, clear advantages and disadvantages to encourage teamwork.