The jungle timer changes aren't bad in themselves. There's another, much larger, issue at hand.

WoonStruck·Apr 21, 2016·146 votes·5,581 views

The blue/red timers and spawn markers only widen the gap between solo and premade players. That's the most negative impact this change will have, from what I can see.

Premades will easily capitalize on spawn times, both aggressively and defensively. Solos will get abused by this change, especially due to the coming mid-lane reliance on blue.

You're only ostracizing solo players even further with this change, Riot. I hope you realize that.

121 Comments

MrLlamaWaffleApr 21, 201646 votes

"We don't care get some friends loser. Besides most people like dynamic queue according to our survey that was apparently put together by an 8th grader." - Riot 2016

PyroApr 21, 201620 votes

"You're a solo player? Too bad, League is a team game. Go play some Hearthstone instead" - Riot 2016

Spaceman5pffApr 21, 20166 votes

Actually their survey was pretty genius. They framed the question in such a way that even those against dynamic queue would answer that they liked it.

OrioleApr 21, 20161 votes

what was the survey?

Deadly MittensApr 21, 20162 votes

Basically asking if you liked the new champ select if memory serves me right.

Which I do, the display of picks front and center is awesome and promotes consideration of what's been picked.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20165 votes

Honestly though, as far as new champion select goes, I'd rather have the old queue system as well.

While picking two roles guarantees I will get one of two roles I want, it also ups queue time significantly (not even included the system trying to match for premades).

Another negative is diversity. I mainly top/mid/jungle. I will essentially never practice support or ADC now because the system gives me the roles I want.

The new queue system is convenient and all, but I'm still not sure if its the best thing for the game competitively.

The pick/ban and pick intent are awesome features of the new champion select, but the champion icons are still too large, IMO. I miss being able to see all of them on one screen without a clunky scroll feature.

McprowlingtonApr 21, 201610 votes

You're only ostracizing solo players even further with this change, Riot. I hope you realize that.

I don't think there's anything they could possibly care less about.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20168 votes

Cynical, but it actually made me chuckle.

I do believe Riot cares about solo players, just not even remotely close to the amount they care about encouraging premades.

This is why Solo Queue is a last resort, rather than off the table entirely.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20164 votes

No, I doubt they care about Solo players at all right now. Just look at all the stuff aimed at groups, Dynamic Queue, increased key fragment drops, getting a chest if one of your PREMADE gets an S rank, increased IP gains in groups. And that's to name some of the more recent cases.

It all smacks of incentivising group play, because that encourages people to get others to play, thus more customers leading to more skin sales.

It's really not hard to put 2 and 2 together given all the evidence before us, it's also hard to not be cynical as of recently.

SpoofghoulApr 21, 20165 votes

yep

too bad these premades still need solo players

discouraging solo players by doing all what you just stated, the op has stated and more, well thats not really a good plan when your beloved premade que relies so much on solo players.

Riot can be really dumb af sometimes

Spaceman5pffApr 21, 20162 votes

Just a simple fact: -There is less toxic behavior between premades than amongst teams of solos

WoonStruckApr 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Just a simple fact: -There is less toxic behavior between premades than amongst teams of solos

But there's just as much toxic behavior between premades and solos on the same team. Not to mention gang mentality.

You can't just use arguments against one side. You have to weigh the pros and cons of either option.

SenzaRespiro89Apr 23, 20162 votes

Yeah i give a crap. I take toxicity over solos vs premade+ boosted animals in my elo everyday.

EcchiOtakuTMApr 21, 20165 votes

Oh yea now that you mention it that's also another downside than what I listed aside from counterjungling being a waste of time and an invalid and useless strategy too.

Fondling GemsApr 21, 20164 votes

Riot did say that they were looking into ways to avoid solo players from going up against or with large premades.

WoonStruckApr 21, 201627 votes

Hey, that sounds like Solo Queue! :^)

Can't avoid the 4+1.

Fondling GemsApr 21, 20163 votes

No details were released, just telling you what they said.

WoonStruckApr 21, 201612 votes

Yeah, I'm aware. Its legitimately an unrealistic promise, though.

In a system that tries not to match solo players with premades, queue times skyrocket for Riot's much preferred premade players.

I very highly doubt much will be done, as they will prioritize premades' experience over solo players in any system that's a part of Dynamic Queue. Its the unfortunate but inevitable outcome of Riot's current intentions. :(

Fondling GemsApr 21, 20167 votes

I am willing to give them a chance. Riot has come up with some pretty ingenious ways of doing things before

WoonStruckApr 21, 20168 votes

Also some extremely bad things before.

Fondling GemsApr 21, 20168 votes

Like I said, we will just have to wait and see

Malix FarwinApr 21, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Like I said, we will just have to wait and see

Some changes you dont have to wait to know the ramifications.

Fondling GemsApr 21, 20169 votes

When you are talking about how Riot is looking to make queue better and we have 0 info on how they will do that then yes, we do have to wait and see because we DON'T know the ramifications

QuksliceApr 21, 20169 votes

I agree with Ranger here. You're basing all of your claims with only opinions to support them. They haven't released any sort of plan on how they're going to fix it, so we have to wait and see.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20168 votes

How did they reduce the queue times before? They widened the system's acceptable MMR gap. This lead to even more problems. I've seen diamonds matched with silvers in extremely rare cases.

I would honestly be impressed if they found a way to better support solo players without negatively affecting premades outside of a change like widening the MMR gap, which makes things worse for EVERYONE instead.

KynamiApr 21, 20167 votes

Yup... had a game a few days back where as a group of five that were three silver 4s and two bronzes had to deal with the other group having among their team a diamond V Nidalee jungle and a plat V Mundo top before dropping back down into silver-bronze territory.

Very obviously we lost because we couldn't deal with the two significantly higher tiered players without superior numbers where they were and deal with split pressure at the same time. That kind of MMR gap should not be possible even within normals and very obviously indicates a failing within the matchmaking system.

Serika ZeroApr 21, 20163 votes

like the dominion rank mode they were supposed to release a while ago? like the marskman update that was supposed to give you reasons to pick any of the marksman in their bot lane adc position (not everywhere on the map) ?

there's no ranked dominion, there's not even a dominion mode anymore adcs are picked in every role but support, and even then, the most played ones are still graves, lucian, vayne. Nothing changed overall.

Riot made tons of promises, but when it looks "to good to be true". Its a lie. At least in this company's case

WoonStruckApr 21, 20163 votes

You forgot Ezreal and Corki.

Let's not forget the newcomers Kindred and Kalista (at least in pro) either. :)

Serika ZeroApr 21, 20163 votes

yes, you are right, but I went with popularity numbers out of my head (didn't check actual data). anyway, the same adcs that were spammed before adc rework, still 5-7 out of 18 and this time in more than 1 role >.>

Surr20plzApr 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No details were released, just telling you what they said.

Just circulating their lies eh? Like what they said about solo que.

FovereApr 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot did say that they were looking into ways to avoid solo players from going up against or with large premades.

Does getting rid of them count?

Fondling GemsApr 22, 20161 votes

No esp considering that running in too many premades just shows how much people like playing with others. Though more vocal, we are not the majority in this situation.

FovereApr 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No esp considering that running in too many premades just shows how much people like playing with others. Though more vocal, we are not the majority in this situation.

Considering you can't start a game without 5 people on each team, I'm not sure how anyone who please League can't like "playing with others" on some level. :)

The DeckownerApr 21, 20163 votes

This change in general is very bad in my opinion. Respawn timer of buffs should only be gain when the enemy is smart enough to get vision of the buff, giving information for free seems stupid and unfair.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20166 votes

In a solo-oriented League of Legends, they're actually positive changes, IMO.

They encourage counterjungling in lower skill brackets and make it a more defined balance-lever (both ability to both do and defend yourself).

Counterjungling was something that made jungle experience much more colorful in League's past, and, although I've had my fair share of bad experiences with it, its impact and availability is practically null now, which removes a layer of depth from jungling.

It makes jungling harder to deal with overall, but there should be a price to pay for essentially bypassing laning.

This coming from a jungle main who will likely be on the receiving end of these aggression-oriented changes, btw. :)

The premade vs solo impact it has will be staggering though, and kills all of the positive aspects of these changes in the Dynamic Queue environment.

The DeckownerApr 21, 20162 votes

I think counter jungle shouldn't be encourged by a automatic system, but instead an objective that require player action to contest.

this change will significantly reduce the player skill of many new junglers.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20163 votes

While this argument has merit, it will be argued that its simply unnecessary depth-of-knowledge, which isn't untrue either.

You can't deny that aggressive vision being almost required for invading (especially after level 1) stops many players from even considering it, though, which doesn't exactly encourage diverse gameplay in regards to interaction with the enemy jungler.

QuksliceApr 21, 20162 votes

It's not even that hard to counter jungle. Just place a ward in the red or blue pit or somewhere nearby and watch the minimap until it respawns. Why did they feel they needed to add an automatic system for counter jungling. I bet the bronze scrubbies and I won't even use the timers.

JRobin31Apr 21, 20162 votes

I agree that jungle timers on red and blue buff will benefit low ranked players more than high ranked players. High ranked players are generally more aware of when the buffs on both sides are spawning than low ranked players are. I think some players will continue to be clueless, but some players (and I mean solo players) are going to make really good use of this information in their games. So I am not convinced that premades are going to benefit more from this change.

NichtHurzApr 21, 20162 votes

I guess the problem will be people aggressively counterjungling from the lane to deny enemy buffs. If you always have a mid/top + jgl premade controlling your jungle you'll have a problem. This way enemies will be able to prepare a trap while exactly knowing when the buff is up and when the enemy jungle might get there.

DengedenApr 21, 20162 votes

Solo invades by the jungler are the most common form outside of 5 man botside invades. This plain ain't true.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20168 votes

This is going to push more team invades, especially with the newfound importance of blue buffs.

Remember when Anivia/Ori were meta season 1 and 2? People actively invaded her jungle so she couldn't take blue to mid-lane or team-fights.

That doesn't happen anymore, but it will now.

DengedenApr 21, 20162 votes

I don't see how this change will change much of anything. At higher levels of play, people already estimate buff timers quite accurately. Honestly, this should only affect fringe cases where the jungler leaves his buffs standing around to camp a lane.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20166 votes

This isn't about higher level play. Its that the communication gap is widened at all levels of play, with noticeably larger effect the further down in MMR you go. Even high MMR people have complained about going against premades because they can completely prevent a laner from participating in a game, and jungle is no exception, really.

This makes it a little easier to pinpoint where a jungler will be... at any level of play. Its much more likely that a team with communication will act on that than ones without.

DengedenApr 21, 20161 votes

I could just as easily say that coordinated teams (as of right now) will time the enemy jungler's buff based on when he first appears on the map (and wether top or bot leashes). Consistently doing that every game and timing invades around it properly ... now THAT would require premades.

KarmasPoliceApr 21, 20162 votes

what? no...it would require a simple pink in the red bush, and another trinket on the blue. Invading wasnt the point. It's **countering **an invade with just pings as a solo jungler which gonna be the problem.

DengedenApr 21, 20161 votes

What? Lemme get this straight, you're worried about the solo jungler getting invaded and his team not following? If so, that's objectively not an issue. If you get invaded ... leave, there. 2 people on the enemy team wasted as much time and XP as you did.

KarmasPoliceApr 21, 20162 votes

How many times you actually "left" after being invaded by 2-3 people and not had a nice looking gray screen afterwards.

HollowchazzApr 21, 20161 votes

So if you visit a camp you will gain its timer now? is that what this is about?

I don't like this change either (even though i steal buffs all the time)

I honestly don't think people will abuse it as much as this post claims. People in bronze-plat generally dont counter jungle that much, its a risky business where you could get collapsed on.

WoonStruckApr 21, 20166 votes

The issue is less about MMR and more about communication. I don't care if you're in bronze or diamond. If 3 people show up to an enemy buff via real-time communication, chances are the victim's team will not be on top of that situation, and this is especially true the lower you go in MMR.

These markers tell a member of a premade, of which any one of them might realize, "Hey, his buff is spawning in a minute. We can collapse on him then and their team likely won't be able to react fast enough to stop it." Because that will almost universally be true anywhere below plat.

Yes, your team could take defensive positioning if they think the enemy is going to invade for their buff, but if the jungler is not a part of the premade, realistically, how likely are they to help defend from the invade with the same amount of bodies as the enemy team? Even if they do, will they all be on the same page like the enemy team? If you are a solo jungler, these situations are almost entirely out of your hands.

That's the issue with these changes.