How long are we going to pretend that items don't need to be balanced around melee/ranged?

Eedat·Feb 12, 2017·145 votes·5,904 views

received two massive nerfs because ranged champs abused it. Its getting another nerf next patch.

is going to get the same treatment because its too strong on ranged champions.

is being changed to dissuade ranged champs from abusing it. Let pray its enough.

gutted into unviability because ranged champions abused it

was nerfed for the same thing

Lethality in general being abused on ranged champions when it was intended for assassins and melee fighters

I understand that Riot doesnt want to make a lot of items straight up Ranged/Melee only. There needs to be some sort of reduced effect to counterbalanced the innate safety of range. These items are fine on melees. Ranged gets their hands on them and gets them nerfed for everyone.

127 Comments

Gnart Even CloseFeb 12, 201754 votes

Lethality is too strong on melee champs as well. I don't really understand where this is coming from. The Black Cleaver is also not getting nerfed just for ranged, but because assassins use it too well. It's literally only supposed to be for tanky fighters, not for squishy champs.

The only real one that was gutted for ranged champions was Sterak's Gage, but that item had a flawed design. There is no way unless they change how it scales that a squishy champion that can more reliably proc it isn't going to get better value out of it if it's in a decent state. Maw of Malmortius was complained about for literally any AD champions, especially by mid laners playing against AD assassins like Zed.

Certain AD items are/have been way too strong, and they're toning it down for everyone as a result.

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 12, 20177 votes

the lethality items were buffed because the assassins that were using them were suffering following the changes to lethality. Both talon and zed were in a meh place (ren and kha just have overtuned kits). Lethality is not too strong on melee champs as it gives them a weaker early-mid game then they used to have, but a stronger late game.

Gnart Even CloseFeb 12, 20173 votes

Old lethality was too weak, new lethality is too strong. Literally everyone on the boards thinks a 0.5 starting ratio would be better. Meddler also said that Lethality was too strong atm, and that they're going to have to nerf it somehow.

Sraeg2013Feb 12, 20176 votes

Lethality is not too strong on melee champs as it gives them a weaker early-mid game then they used to have, but a stronger late game.

It is no longer true since the buff, because now Lethality starts with old flat pen values while only getting better with levels.

Plus that was the whole fucking point of lethality - to make flat armor pen weaker early.

EedatFeb 13, 20173 votes

because now Lethality starts with old flat pen values while only getting better with levels.

No it doesn't. This is just straight up incorrect. Lethality is still a straight up nerf to flat armor pen at every stage of the game except level 18

NuparuFeb 13, 20172 votes

Lethality is weaker early game but breaks even much faster now. It's even more problematic in lane at the moment because it's not a viable rush if you snowball unless you're overbearingly strong compared to your lane opponent. However, second and third item it is a very strong investment because of the fact that it ramps up that much faster.

Jet SettFeb 12, 20175 votes

Riot stated that ADC's using the Youmuu's active was the prime reason why they took away half the active.

JihyobdaFeb 12, 20172 votes

As an adc main, I will continue to rush ghostblade on adc... It's so much better than essence reaver and ie, i'm starting to go ghostblade then black cleaver and runaans, then ie and bt, lethality items are just more efficient than crit items, crit needs to be changed

NineTailedMysticFeb 12, 20172 votes

Crit items are bad because ADCs can't scale up into Crit itemization, not that the items themselves are bad.

Velzard of KozFeb 12, 20172 votes

Also, why are we still using "ranged champion" term? Xerath is also ranged champion and he wasn't abusing these. The problem is Marksmen and we should call it that way. Maybe it's not that items would need dual balancing, but Marskmen would need change of how they work, so that they don't need/want those so much.

Finally, I like how he says:

Lethality in general being abused on ranged champions when it was intended for assassins and melee fighters

I don't remember Lethality being aimed for melee fighters. Seems like he is Diver main who abuses Lethality, but hates ADC, so circlejerked like many others.

ADDITION: LOL, check his match history. Yops he is one of those playing Hecarim, Vi and Wukong. He wants to be tanky as Juggernaut, dealing damage as Diver, while having deletion and mobility of Assasin. He keeps abusing Juggernaut, Assasin and Tank items on Divers.

Surr20plzFeb 12, 201720 votes

Yeah I don't see why they hate the idea of having different things for ranged and melee.

MissingKayoFeb 12, 20179 votes

Because ADCs are the children Riot panders to 24/7. Sort of like how Riot nerfed Thornmail and Rammus after the ADC update when people picked 3+ ADCs a game. So Thornmail and Rammus were the logical counters. But that was unacceptable apparently.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20174 votes

You balance according to the Meta. If Rammus is too strong, even in a Meta that puts him in optimal conditions, he'll get nerfed.

Gamer GalladeFeb 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9A1aa7F,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T04:41:12.720+0000)

You balance according to the Meta. If Rammus is too strong, even in a Meta that puts him in optimal conditions, he'll get nerfed.

For someone that has a item 3075 built in his kit and has a taunt was bad enough. He is an absolute counter to the ADC meta. He is just unhealthy for a few reasons, and is why he is nerfed because of the meta.

Faceroll TacticsFeb 12, 20173 votes

He's a benchmark. If he is strong, adcs are way overturned

Viktor Von LazerFeb 12, 201720 votes

Quinn flying in doing 1500 damage in 1.2 seconds when i only have 1400 health is just bullshit. I am fine with melee assassin having that kind of power It's much more work for them to effectively get to you and get out cleanly, but ranged champs like quinn using lethality, hell no.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 12, 20171 votes

At least it's single target? Twitch does it to your whole team.

VeltoxFeb 12, 20173 votes

At around 30 minutes unless your team is full of squishies.

TomosimaFeb 12, 201716 votes

The game is never fun for melee

LordSirChipmunkFeb 12, 20176 votes

In my opinion, it's not very fun for melee without mobility. If you've got a Rengar or a Talon jumping on you every 30 seconds, then it's not too fun for ranged. Meanwhile, all of the Mordekaiser OTPs are doing some absurd Stormraider's Surge and Rylai's build just so it could be nearly viable. Context is everything.

notmebuthimFeb 12, 201713 votes

Jayce Quinn MissFortune Jhin not sure if I am missing any other ranged champs that abuse pen

4th3t0sFeb 12, 201711 votes

Lucian

MrHaZeYoFeb 12, 201721 votes

Varus

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20177 votes

Okay, real quick, unlike the ADC's listed above who actually use their autos, Varus uses his Q as his main source of damage, and relies heavily on that.

Faceroll TacticsFeb 12, 20173 votes

Lethality works on all physical damage, not sure why autos vs. q excludes him somehow

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20175 votes

All the adc's listed above are still played as regular ADCs, just with a better early. Varus switches an entire playstyle to accommodate for building Pen, as he favors a more Siege Caster when Pen building.

MrHaZeYoFeb 12, 20171 votes

Lol he still autos, just not as fast. If you get in a Leathity Varus's face he's gonna AA you lol.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20176 votes

Well yeah, duh, but Lethality Varus is still primarily focused on Q. Auto's are not his primary source of contributing, but they'll still hurt if someone is up in their face.

It's just like how Zed's primary source of damage is his abilities, and passive, but he can still auto you down if need be. Doesn't make him play the same as an ADC though.

NineTailedMysticFeb 12, 20171 votes

Welcome to why I hate AD Casters. "lol miss my abilities? its k I can auto you to death anyways".

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20174 votes

I mean, without attack speed, it's gonna take a while.

TehNACHOFeb 12, 20173 votes

He functions less like an ADC and more like an AD Mage if he opts for lethality, whereas the others still pretty much play the exact same either way.

Oakleaf RangerFeb 12, 20171 votes

You forget that his passive also gives bonus attack speed for killing minions and more on champion kills. Sounds like he also uses autos.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20173 votes

And that's great, when he's playing like an ADC, but Siege Varus is still primarily, look at that word, look up it's definition, with his Q. He can still use Auto's, but he isn't itemizing Auto's as his main source of contribution.

Oakleaf RangerFeb 12, 20171 votes

He isn't itemizing attack speed and crit is what you mean. What I'm saying is that his passive gives him a little bit more freedom to play around what items he wants to build compared to most adc's. Without the AS steroid he would be shit with his "siege" build since his main source of dps aka his autos would be garbage for an adc. The passive combined with harder hitting autos compensate allow his dps to compete with other adcs. Basically I'm saying it still lets him fulfill and function as a typical adc but get away with building a pokey focused build.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20172 votes

No one takes Siege Varus thinking "I'm going to auto them to death." People play him specifically for Sieging, and any added benefit from auto's is the same as any other AD Caster. It's just the same as Jayce or Zed.

Oakleaf RangerFeb 12, 20171 votes

no but the option keeps him relevant and useful if he is forced into a more traditional team fight scenario where he doesn't have the luxury to poke the enemy to death beforehand where dps on demand is necessary (auto attacks). His passive fills in the issues that most adc's would have if they were to try a similar build. Zed and Jayce don't have dps unlike Varus FYI (Jayce might have enough damage to not give a fuck and bebetter than most adcs for most of the game though).

ModAcademy KaynFeb 12, 20172 votes

Literally the same as any AD Caster.

SulghunterFeb 12, 20172 votes

As much as Quinn does abuse this, just how often would you ever see her?

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 12, 20174 votes

It's funny when people include Quinn in this whole "ADCs that have become OP" when Lethality was buffed. Quinn has ALWAYS been sleeper OP.

She just has a really binary play-style. Being required to win-lane and then snowball the game to victory before your 25-minute drop off. It's not exactly intuitive by a lot of standards, not too mention besides your E and Ult she's not really that much fun to play. Only a select few want to play a lane-bully with a time limit.

Big LincolnFeb 12, 201710 votes

Bork is gonna be disgusting on ADCs next patch

god i don't want to imagine Quinn with that fucking item top lane

VeltoxFeb 12, 20173 votes

I don't want to imagine Quinn toplane.

DJMason88Feb 12, 20178 votes

item 3814 is strong on both melee and ranged champions.

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 12, 20175 votes

not as strong though. Assassins have to dive in, thus they are easy to focus down, cc, and kill. Marksman on the other hand, have a frontline and a support peeling for them. It's already hard enough as it is to get to them, we don't need to make it harder.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 12, 20177 votes

No, item 3071 is being nerfed because everyone and their mother is buying it. Assassins, fighters, marksmen and juggernauts are buying it and it's making armor a joke because it's so easy to fully stack it when so many people on a team have it.

CosnirakFeb 12, 20175 votes

You'muu's was an issue on melee previously (not sure about now). Edge of Night is an issue period. Black Cleaver has been an issue for both ever since it's rework. Sterak's Gage is still viable on both melee and certain ranged champions. Maw of Malmortius was an issue period.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree to at least a small degree that more items should be melee or ranged only. But please, at least pick better examples or get the facts straight about the examples you choose.

EedatFeb 12, 20177 votes

You'muu's was an issue on melee previously (not sure about now).

No its not. It used to have half duration for ranged but they changed it. Then they nerfed the shit out of it because ranged champs were abusing it

Edge of Night

Completely fine on melee champs they actually have to go in as opposed to prevent any sort of hard engage on ranged champs

Black Cleaver

Was completely fine for a long time. Only became a problem when MissFortune Lucian started abusing it

Sterak's Gage

was straight up gutted solely because ADCs picked it up

Maw of Malmortius

Actually the problem with this item is that Hexdrinker was too efficient. It got nerfed and was fine

RozairFeb 12, 20175 votes

i build item 3085 on Tryndamere all the time. its op

Rito StaffFeb 12, 20175 votes

Make items give different shit depending on if ranged or melee :P

kasfasFeb 12, 20174 votes

How about we change item 3053 and give its buff duration a scaling based on bonus health, or just reduce the duration of the buff for ranged champions.

ParoeFeb 12, 20175 votes

{quoted}

How about we change and give its buff duration a scaling based on bonus health, or just reduce the duration of the buff for ranged champions.

Or make it melee only since ranged champions have gasp the safety of range! People really under estimate just how strong an advantage range is... its funny, really.