These two posts summed up the discussion very well a while ago and deserve look by anyone that is still interested in the topic.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tuBfbPmL-veigar-lacked-counter-play
qetzel5 votesI would like to say that there should at all stages of the game be something that you can do against your opponent. If your midlaner didn't know how to play against Veigar then there was very little counterplay.
The sort of strategic counterplay that I like is shown by Rek'Sai. If she gets ahead you can limit her by stepping on her tunnels. I also like comp strategies - You can limit splitpushers by rotating as a team, pushing waves far out and taking objectives elsewhere. You can destroy poke comps with hard engage and hard engage comps with great kiting. Veigar lacked counterplay in the late game. The stun was great disengage in a kiting comp, brilliant zone control in a teamfight comp (also good at trapping people for wombos), and lovely in a poke and siege comp for pushing enemies away from turrets. It could trap people as a group or catch loners in a pick composition. It was too versatile to allow for in the moment strategic decisions. Hell, he was picked as a support almost solely due to his stun. It was the only utility he offered, and after the early game he didn't offer much damage either...
The only counterplay Veigar possessed, strategic or otherwise, was denial and exploitation - admittedly it was fairly easy to do but in most cases you had to rely on someone else to do it. The counterplay was out of your control, and that sucked.
Did he need his stun changed? I think so.
So yeah... My thoughts on Veigar... Hope you enjoyed them.
BuCkeT SeiZureS8 votesHonestly, change is fine. Nerfing is fine trying to call his changes a compensation and saying "it was not meant to be a Nerf" is not okay. The community has been very vocal about this, but is completely unheard. I think his stun needed a change. Instead they were lazy and added a delay. They have yet to address the issues they have caused through this laziness. I think people are mad about the change, but even more mad at how Riot is still going about it. They said they want to communicate, but they clearly have avoided very popular posts.
Shinjusuke4 votesFor the love of God, they never said Veigar was going to be compensated for DFGs removal. Riot never made this claim. Some guy with shitty reading comprehension skills horribly misread a Riot post and started spreading a stupid rumor on these boards and every butt-hurt Veigar player jumped on the "WOW RIOT LIED TO US" bandwagon.
They said Veigar was going to be changed, NOT that he was going to be "compensated", no matter how many whiney players put words in their mouths. Veigar was changed, so they kept their promise.
He could use some more work, but this whole entitled perception of "Riot promised us X and lied wahhhh", especially when they never made the promise people pretend they did, is an overwhelming amount of the problem with the Veigar situation, not Riot's handling of it. I wouldn't wanna do anything for a bunch of punks who can't read and witchhunt me for something I never said, either. Can't say I blame them.
BuCkeT SeiZureS3 votesWell actually, Riot did say it. Veigar was specifically mentioned for compensation because of the removal of DFG. The change came 2 patches later. They said in the end that they never meant to Nerf veigar. But they did and they still aren't doing anything about it. Riot has had bad communication through this entire process. They claim that they want to work on it, but this is not showing any progress
Shinjusuke2 votesNo, he was not. That's the point. People don't know how to read, misinterpret Riot's posts, and make it say what they want.
VEIGAR was never promised compensations. They didn't want to do a total nerf to Veigar (which they definitively did not do), but Veigar was never promised anything close to compensation in any post made by any Rioter in any fashion regarding DFG's removal. The only posts where they even talked about Veigar or compensation were the patch notes, Riot Jag's 5.2 patch forecast, and a post by Scarizard and in none of these cases did they promise compensation for Veigar.
It. Did not. Happen.
People just skipped the 5th grade and forgot how to read plain English, and decided that because Veigar was mentioned as a user of DFG, that meant he was in line for compensation for it's removal alongside the champions who were outright designed with DFG in mind and did not function without it.
He was not. This is fact. Veigar mains can pretend all they want but they're both putting words in Riot's mouth so they can blame the company, and lying to themselves to feel justified in their vitriol. In fact, they very plainly stated that Veigar was not going to be straight buffed. As in the exact quote from Meddler following DFG's removal was
"Odds are very high Veigar won't just be straight buffed. His kit's got some serious counterplay issues (undodgeable instant stun when used right, two point and click nukes) that we need to address."
Not only did they not promise "compensation" for the removal of DFG, they were very clear that he was not getting buffed to compensate for it. They promised to give attention to Veigar, which they did, they did not promise to "compensate" him.
Like I said, I'm not saying he couldn't use some work. I'm just saying all the Veigar players need to stop plugging their ears and blindly following a stupid rumor of words that were not said and raging every time someone comes around and says "for the love of god that wasn't what they said".
Here's the thread with Meddler's post: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XQ50JbAz-53-is-almost-here-and-none-of-the-promised-champ-changes-are-on-the-pbe?comment=000700020000
and here's the Reddit post of Scarizard's: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2scgcq/deathfire_grasp_to_be_removed_in_patch_52/cnoaup0
Now, if angry Veigar mains wanna insist on warping Riot's words to mean what you want them to mean after reading the actual Riot posts the rumor came from, feel free. But you're outright wrong if you're "interpreting" anything they've said to mean Veigar was getting "compensated". That's just simple fact. It's not what they said. At all. Period. Whatsoever.
Please, enlighten yourselves and stop spreading this stupid rumor on the boards again: Veigar was a no-counterplay load of bull before, and DFG accentuated that playstyle. He isn't that any more. He's too weak, sure, but considering Veigar players were outright told the opposite of what they seem to think Riot told them, I'd shut up with the whole "WOW RITO U GUYZ R LIARS" crap, and maybe focus on an actually worthwile attempt at communication. They're going to (rightly) avoid you guys as long as you refuse to do anything but live in a fantasy-land where Riot says whatever you want to hear.
Ya'll can downvote reality all you want, but you're just making yourselves look like illiterate idiots, and it's not going to change what the facts are.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesSigh. This is not an argument that seems win able to me. Ahri and Veigar were both specifically mentioned in a post regarding the removal of dfg. They were included later mentioning that there will be compensations for champions that relied on such an item. Even IF they were completely unmentioned by name, mentioning that champions that used dfg were going to be compensated should be a very clear hint toward Veigar.
Honestly, I cannot see why you are so upset. Going as far as to degrade fellow players for calling out mistakes. I believe that what I am asking is very reasonable because Riot's communication has been terrible throughout this process. Not to mention that they are ignoring the clearly still frustrated fan base. I believe you are annoyed with the amount of backlash being created by this Veigar change, but trying to be insulting and disputing well thought out posts is not the way to show your opinion.
Compensated and buffed are very different things. Compensated sounds like a shift in power. A buff is an increase in power. Riot has also mentioned that their changes were not meant to be a Nerf. But they clearly are. So while I understand that the words "veigar is going to get compensated for the removal of dfg" was not stated, they have mentioned they wanted his power to be redistributed, not lowered. If anything, they sounded like they wanted to buff veigar after the dfg removal, but needed to work on his kit first. Well now the kit has been worked on and a whole patch went by with no word on the champion. We have a right to argue that riot needs to communicate better, because they are not doing a great job at it right now. That is what this post is about. No one is twisting words here. This post is about how we want communication so that there will NOT be mix ups, such as people believing veigar was promised specifically a compensation. He was mentioned as someone that would get attention from the dfg removal.
Shinjusuke1 votesI'm "upset" because I'm sick of hearing butthurt Veigar mains keep DECIDING what was said because it's what they want to believe was said, and then being entitled little twats about it on the forums for weeks because they don't know how to read, and then have the audacity to complain about Riot ignoring them.
Veigar players made fake bullshit up to justify complaining. Then they complain about Riot ignoring them, and rage at anyone who tells them they're making crap up. Players like that are the whole reason getting the Design and Balance team on the forums is nearly impossible.
I should clarify, I'm not personally attacking or insulting you, except for telling you that you are outright wrong for believing there was going to be compensation for Veigar in any form (which, coincidentally, by what your definition of "compensation" is, there was anyway), or buffs to him. What I have a beef with is all the people spreading blatant falsities and broiling up an INCREDIBLY ignorant Rioter witch-hunt about Veigar being changed because of what those Veigar players told themselves was going to happen, rather than anything even remotely close to what Riot said.
-Riot said, outright, that they weren't buffing him after DFG left. As I provided links, you can read for youself. No buffs. -They also never even came close to saying Veigar was getting compensated, the only thing that might even be remotely "interpreted" to mean they would is that they said they were going to examine him, which they did. -They did shift his power around considerably, which they said they would do.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesExcuse me. They said veigar would get some "love." http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GinIa17t-52-live-gameplay-patch-forecast Anyways. You have been missing the entire point of this post. Riot has not been communicating and it is very frustrating. A simple post saying "veigar is not done yet" would be enough to satisfy a whole bunch of people. But instead we have absolute silence.
Honestly, I couldn't care less if you want to attack me. But I don't like you attacking others, whether they deserve it or not. You have a VERY important point, but people will disregard it because you called the fifth graders that can't read.
DrCabes1 votesThanks for having an actual argument aside from he stunned me and I died, rito plz. Granted though, you rely on every lane to deal with who they're facing.
You're not wrong that his E may have been too useful in too many situations and because of that I wouldn't mind changing is E to be more defensive rather then offensive or vise versa, so that Veigar could excel in one of those aspects instead of relying on teammates for both.
Right now Veigar just seems unfinished and hopefully Riot adds some changes to him to make him feel more complete, whether it's another change to his E or something else.
DrCyanide3 votesHell, he was picked as a support almost solely due to his stun. It was the only utility he offered, and after the early game he didn't offer much damage either...
To be fair, how is that different than Annie support?
As others have mentioned, you've got my respect for going into details of why you think he needed changes. I don't like the idea of a champion working well with any team comp, but hadn't considered that Veigar might be such a champ.
Sammystorm1 votesAnnie is manageable due to the lack of her range and not always having her stun even if the spell is off cooldown. Viegar's stun could hit people almost 1100 units out. Which is twice as long as most adc's atk range and longer then almost every single skill shot in the game. Simple put, Viegars area of control off his stun was twice as large as annie's.
A Bad Varus4 votes[deleted]
SirPacifista4 votesDid you even read the 2 discussion above? Dont say something like that only because you dont play him. I never complained as the jungler when i fought against a Veigar, because it was easy to get that stun on cd and then kill him.
Sammystorm1 votesViegar was weak yes. However that stun was bullshit. Riot should do follow up now and make him better because now he is even worse. Like I said though, that stun was too good.
Llanite4 votesAnyone claiming the old Veigar was fine is a flat out lie.
The new Veigar is on the weak side, yes, but healthier? 100%.
Sigma1173 votesHealthier to play against, not at all fun to play though.
BeerOfRoot48432 votesWhat's interesting is they're trying to make his Event Horizon trap people instead of stunning them. From my experience playing him, his biggest counter to his stun is to juke his E by pretending to run from him, then turning around. This traps you inside, but you're not stunned, so you can 1v1 him.
With the delay, he always loses.
thinking man2 votesHe was shit design by modern standards and his stun being hard to land was a joke since everybody who played Veigar at all could already land it.
It needed to be heavily nerfed or made easier to see.
Worst Mid Ever1 votestldr destroy them in lane, build MR, position properly and bait spells, this can be applied to any AP mid or any champion really, and he didn't mention any of the points people complain about, such as the fact that 2 of his spells were long range onclicks, he scales off your stats and forces MR buys even if he is 0/50 in lane, he didn't even need stacks to 100% someone and his stun has no real counterplay, you either stay away from the walls and eat his combo in the middle or walk into the wall and maybe dodge his W but still die anyway
Thryale2 votesdunno bout you, but if a veigar is 0/10 in lane, he doesn't do jack all. And by then, you are so far behind, that it doesn't matter if you farmed 120 ap from your Q, you'll only have about 200-240 ap total due to being so far behind in gold.
Also, you ppl need to get off your high horse and realize that adjusting your build and adapting to what the enemy buys is just as important as dodging skill shots, and I for one am sad to see that this form of counter play has been extremely downplayed and almost forgotten by most of the player base.
And lastly, the range on veig's old Q and his ult is on average with most ranged champs AA range. I'd like to see you get close enough to a fed draven to RQ him without getting cc'd by his stand aside and getting deleted by two spinning axe crits.
warpenguin5551 votesi was gonna say QSS for his stun
SirPacifista1 votesFuck, first time i saw these posts, i loved them both, especially the first one, a very cute and acurate masterpiece
Solidair31 votesHe's not getting his ultimate tier aoe instant stun back. Just drop it.
Sigma1171 votesThis feels like what they do to any champ that goes mid. Riot say they'll nerf support [champ] and leave mid [champ] untouched. Instead they nerf their mid and enforce their support role even more.
Veigar mid isn't good anymore because he needs that stun, you can play him support much better now though. They did this to Zyra too, her recommended build is even a support build now.
Condottiero1 votesIs it not possible to have a discussion about Veigar's current state without the use of the word "counterplay"?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesHe needs more reliability.
There, I didn't say "counter-play" which is technically two words connected by a hyphen.
Sammystorm1 votesI am not saying veigar was in a healthy spot because he wasn't. However his old stun was really really good. It was so good that if veigar ever had been a competitive pick he would have dominated because of that ability. Viegar still needs more work. I propose they add more reliability to his w.