Xypherous calls wards 'sight sticks' and says something about them 'feels off' - and he's 100% right

DrugsForRobots··33 votes·2,747 views

Last preseason, Xypherous made this post about vision in the 2016 season. It's an interesting read, and full of little insightful tidbits of how Xypherous thinks, the Riot design process, and the nature of the vision game. I'd encourage everyone to read over it again, seeing as something is being done in regards to the vision game and invisibility (stealth).

But Xypherous is absolutely right when he calls wards 'sight sticks' and 'unmanned watchtowers - do nothing but win'. He goes on to say:

However, something about wards just feels off to me. It's scouting without the act of scouting. It's building placement without the satisfaction of building placement or owning something cool. It's territory control without the recognition of owning territory or the permanence of either owning or building. It's traps without an actual impact.

Honestly, It could even just be something as simple as the visual analogy for them - like, sticks with eyes might simply be the wrong visual presentation. Even a flag might be better. If this was a high-tech universe, it'd be invisible security cameras or remote drones.

It's a really really weird thing in general for me. It is so close to a number of analogous actions in games that are both simple, functional and pretty engaging - but the whole stick with an eyeball on it just seems really far from any of that.

The italics are mine. I think Xypherous touches on something incredibly important here when he mentions the 'visual analogy' of wards. Communicating function via the in-game model and particle effects, art and sound, etc. (i.e. the form) is super important for any game. It's not just the visual analogy though - the name is just as important.

Names are, by their very nature, a kind of symbol by which we know something. A name is not the thing itself, only a metaphor by which we perceive the thing. Names are incredibly important for video games, as there are a finite number of meaningful words and word-pair combinations, and that failure to recognize and plan around this will result in a bland and / or bloated game. Games are constrained by their setting and theme, limiting the number of feasible words even more. You wouldn't expect to find a gun called 'Neptune's Trident' in CoD would you? Likewise, nobody expects to find a legendary weapon in Bloodborne called 'Chipotle Cannon' (or maybe they do, IDK). The combination of setting, theme, art-style, and language in a game all work in tandem in the player's mind to create certain expectations - a certain flavor.

Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic: the Gathering, wrote an amazing article where he talked about the need for flavor in any game. He says:

I think I should begin by talking about the role of flavor and function in game design. When you sit down to create a game, those two are the forces you have to think about. Function is how the game plays. It focuses on making sure that there is a definable win condition, that the game has intriguing interaction between the players, and that there are basics like a catch-up feature. Function is concerned with the game playing as cleanly as possible.

Flavor, on the other hand, gives the game a metaphor. The importance of flavor is two-fold. First, having a good metaphor eases game play. If players can apply outside knowledge to implicitly understand game rules, the game’s complexity goes down. (It is my belief that good game designers strive to reduce complexity.)

The second thing flavor does is make the game “sexy.” In game design terms, sexy means that the game attracts players to it. By just looking at the box and the elements of the game, players want to play it. This could be because the subject matter is of interest to them (“Oh, a Simpsons trivia game.”) or because the graphics just look cool (“That monster looks awesome.”).

Again, the italics are mine, but MaRo goes on to say: "The best game mechanics, in fact, have both flavor and function."

It is not just the visual analogy for wards that could use work, but that wards lack good metaphors - they lack good names. Wards are, currently, essentially flavorless.

To see what I mean, we need look no further than League's item shop.

  • item 3341: We do a disservice to this item by calling it 'red trinket', as the name Sweeping Lens communicates a certain kind of function, which is backed up by the actual FX and particles that appear when it is used. The two reinforce one another. When you see it in action, it does what you would expect, given its name. (Or at the very least, it's effect isn't so bizarre as to cause a disconnect in the player.) Even the art and color help strengthen the connection between all these things, creating a very flavorful item.

  • item 3155: I love this item, because despite only being an 'advanced' item, it feels truly unique and even legendary. It's also super flavorful - it's stats, artwork, name, and special ability all create a cohesive identity for it.

  • item 3157: I love this item too, but some of you may remember that it didn't always have CDR. An hour-glass that didn't grant CDR, IKR? Even so, it's active is a brilliant little design, and, just like the other two examples, is relatively flavorful.

  • item 3075: A beautifully designed - if under appreciated - item. The artwork, name, stats, and special ability all work together in harmony, giving players the feeling of acquiring a truly powerful item.

  • item 2043: I saved this one for last to illustrate my point. The Vision Ward is a ward, but then, I.E. is an AD / Crit item but notice the difference in the naming conventions: Infinity Edge vs Vision Ward. The one has a name that screams 'this is a sword of incredible power!' On the other hand, we have a name (Vision Ward) for a ward... that grants vision. At least the vision is True Sight though, that makes it feel a little bit special right?

One more example. Does anyone remember the 'Mandrake Ward' that was on the PBE for a while over a year ago? It was a cheap ward (less that 75g) that didn't grant sight and pinged if an enemy came into its range. Unfortunately, it didn't catch on and was hard to use effectively (which may be because they made it only placeable in brush...) Riot was using Maokai's Sapling as a placeholder model, and combined with the name reminds me of these.

Personally, I think the visual analogy of wards should be that they are semi-autonomous constructs, little hextech / magical devices, not creatures or shrines or 'sight sticks'. For example, the 'Mandrake Ward' could be called the 'Snitch', and the 'Vision Ward' could be called the 'Beholder'. That's just my opinion though, but I do want to stress the importance of names in games, and especially in League, when it comes to making wards exciting and fun and giving them their own personality and identity.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/images/dnd/newtodnd/beholder_1.png


This is part of a series of posts I'm making about the vision game partly for my own amusement, partly because I see no one else talking or even speculating about these things, and partly because I hope it'll be useful to Riot and the community when it comes to thinking about the game. Next time I think I'm going to be talking about vision in Paragon, and maybe Overwatch, Gigantic, and DOTA2.

Until then, GL;HF Shaco

  1. A Shaco Main thinking about Warwick, and why Warwick's update is crucial to the Vision Game
  2. Unpopular Opinion: We shouldn't have Pink Wards on a trinket or SS
  3. Daily Reminder & PSA: Stealth =/= Invisibility

46 Comments

Teridax687 votes

This is something I had never thought about, and you're exactly right, wards have no real flavor, at least not in the way they're presented now. Part of this is a carryover from Dota, which had its own Observer Ward (and the Dota 2 version is literally an eye stick), but I think the issue also comes from wards never being thought of as more than functional objects. Even as you're laying down a ward, you don't care about the ward itself, just the space it reveals (and even then, you only care about specific characters within that space). Despite that, wards are by far the most commonly used item in the game, and in many respects among the most important items, if not the most.

Another thing Xypherous brings up is that the way wards are designed prevents them from being appreciated in-game at all. The vision game has the potential to be this awesome war of territorial control, where teams try to claim portions of the map for themselves via these markers of tremendous power, but wards can't satisfy that right now because it's very difficult to be aware of how wards control territory, or which territory is being controlled via wards. The vision game also has the potential to be this spy war-esque fantasy, where teams eke out informational advantages over each other via specialized gadgets in order to enact great victories later on, but the payoff from vision is often difficult to associate directly to wards, let alone to any specific ward. Not only are they not flavorful, but even their function doesn't really properly convey their impact or importance, at least not in the way it's implemented currently. Wards should not only look and sound cool, that feeling should be reinforced by proper feedback from their usage.

DrugsForRobots3 votes

Very insightful observation!

I'd love to see wards have their own inherent forms of counterplay as well as pros and cons. I also think that if wards were given unique names and their own personalities (so to speak), players might be more inclined to protect them, more careful with their placement, more aware of the vision game! Tons of possibilities! :)

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Also, I want to ask you:

  1. Do you think wards should do non-info related things? Grant speed buffs, maybe increase regen or have a healing aura, etc? Personally, I'm against this.

  2. Xypherous hints at wards becoming structures or buildings or somesuch, which I personally don't want to see. My question is, what do you think about the visual analogy of wards?


To elaborate on my own thoughts about the 2nd question, you know how item 2043 has it's glowy eye that floats above the ward model, and both Green and Yellow wards have their little glowy circle also floating above the ward model? Those are what I imagine 'wards' to be, not the body / model of the ward itself. Almost like little wisps - although I don't want to consider them spirits, or minions, or creatures.

You'll notice I call them 'constructs', and how in my post I said I'd like them to be little hextech / magical devices. I mean I think there is something pure about them being semi-abstract, artificial devices. They remind me of certain pieces of ICE from Android: Netrunner, which is a game about information. It's what influenced the ideas of the Snitch, Sentry, Observer, Beholder, and Beacon wards.

Xypherous even hits on it when he says, "if the setting were hi-tech, they'd be little spy cameras or drones,". Well, why can't they be? Is that really such a stretch for Runeterra?

https://netrunnerdb.com/card_image/04056.png

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

  1. Do you think wards should do non-info related things? Grant speed buffs, maybe increase regen or have a healing aura, etc?

I'm personally against this too. Wards tend to be used out of combat, bar the anti-stealth pink ward drop, and so giving them bonuses that would work best in-combat is bound to make them inefficient one way or the other. The only bonuses that would work would be stuff like out of combat movement speed, but then that would be copying the Scuttle Crab shrine wholesale. Healing should probably also not be a thing, as it's generally something you want to keep under very tight control and as close to combat as possible.

{quoted}

what do you think about the visual analogy of wards?

I think it definitely wouldn't be a stretch for wards to be cameras of some sort, and the other trinkets are good examples of how to associate tech with vision in League. In fact, cameras would probably be the most direct translation of wards and their effects right now, since they give a live feed of the area they're covering. That still leaves a lot of possibilities open for their naming or even their appearance, and they could even be living oberver creatures (taking the Beholder name to its fullest extent, your ward could be some kind of floating cephalopod with eyes poking out everywhere, for example). In either case, though, whichever construct wards become should carry genuine flavor -- you should be genuinely interested in the ward object itself, and not just the vision it provides.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Good work. I too occasionally make long thoughtful posts about gameplay and game design concerning league, despite that these sorts of posts don't find much traction with this audience. People here generally prefer to whine about specific balance issues they dislike or otherwise push a particular agenda rather than have a discussion on design.

You can check out any of my own threads by first heading over to my Master List thread.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Bookmarked for reference. It's a little disheartening that there isn't even 1 article about sight / stealth / vision. ;(

The Sword Saint2 votes

{quoted}

Bookmarked for reference. It's a little disheartening that there isn't even 1 article about sight / stealth / vision. ;(

Lol yeah, sorry. I haven't put a particular amount of thought or research into the vision game and prefer not to make posts about topics that I don't have some level of comfort discussing.

Teridax682 votes

If you're not posting on the wiki already, I recommend you do so. I post some stuff about design, plus a few concepts, and the responses there tend to be far more thoughtful and civil on average. The issue with Boards is that people are much more likely to downvote you for a single thing they disagree with (e.g. talking about Riven in a positive light), than make the effort to read your post in full and promote it for its quality of thought and writing. The upvote/downvote system doesn't help either, and has contributed to several boards, especially Gameplay, turning into an echo chamber. As sad as it is, aiming for quality doesn't really work here, because the criterion for visibility is almost purely based on whether or not the topic is popular among a very specific group of users (and whether you feel the same way as they do on it).

The Sword Saint2 votes

{quoted}

If you're not posting on the wiki already, I recommend you do so. I post some stuff about design, plus a few concepts, and the responses there tend to be far more thoughtful and civil on average. The issue with Boards is that people are much more likely to downvote you for a single thing they disagree with (e.g. talking about Riven in a positive light), than make the effort to read your post in full and promote it for its quality of thought and writing. The upvote/downvote system doesn't help either, and has contributed to several boards, especially Gameplay, turning into an echo chamber. As sad as it is, aiming for quality doesn't really work here, because the criterion for visibility is almost purely based on whether or not the topic is popular among a very specific group of users (and whether you feel the same way as they do on it).

Which wiki? Can I get a link?

DrugsForRobots2 votes
exiledFromBadmen3 votes

A very beautifully written article. Actually that may be the reason why vision is very underappreciated.

Atanchan3 votes

Frankly, I think it's just something innate to something whose sole purpose is to remove fog of war in a static location ... and nothing else.

Let's go back to what Xypherous said -

However, something about wards just feels off to me. It's scouting without the act of scouting. It's building placement without the satisfaction of building placement or owning something cool. It's territory control without the recognition of owning territory or the permanence of either owning or building. It's traps without an actual impact.

There's absolutely bare minimum gameplay involved in the act of actually warding: you click on a spot, and you see what happens in the area for the next however long the ward lasts. Typical wards are completely invisible, meaning that not only do you have to not really worry about them just being destroyed if you put them in a bad spot, but unless an enemy see you place them down, they have no idea you even warded there until the wards dies and leaves its debris. Pink and blue wards do not have these issues, sure, but a lot of the wards placed down over the course of the game are going to be green and yellow. Actually, blue wards are a great example of avoiding a lot of the pitfalls of this - they're fully visible, so you do have to place them carefully to make sure the enemy team doesn't see them, but they provide permanent vision if you place them well enough and their extreme cast range allows them to see stuff you don't already see. I often place down a ward and immediately wonder if there was really any real purpose for it, because it doesn't exactly see anything I didn't already. Not so much the case with blue wards, which are actually so dominant for that reason.

And that was just some scattered thoughts on the whole "scouting without the act of scouting."

Wards serve two functions: provide vision, and provide a target for movement abilities. If you don't have Teleport or a movement abilities that can target wards, that instantly means the wards have one sole function for you. Absolutely nothing else. They don't even act as defensive structures besides the vision; you can't block pathing with wards to try and stall for time as your opponents clear them out. And they are completely unable to be given a function past this through normal gameplay. Let's look at another game to pull examples from: Warcraft 3 seems like a good choice, since a lot of MOBA conventions stem from it and scouting is pretty important there.

Here are some of the options you have for vision in that game as, say, the humans:

  • What you'll typically see in competitive play is sending out a low-cost unit to directly scout. These are fully visible and typically not really that durable, but they provide a source of moving vision that's absolutely invaluable to try and see where your opponent is and what they're doing. Given that these are full units, it's pretty occupying to actually, y'know, move them around, and when you're done scouting with them you can pull them back and use them for whatever purposes they're meant for.
  • More of a thing that Blizzard intended players to do than anything that you'll really see in high-level play, but Scout Towers have scouting directly in their name. They're visible buildings that do nothing but provide static vision over an area as long as they survive. They can even be upgraded, globally per player, to have true sight. Now, this has innately more gameplay than wards, because your opponent can easily see them and destroy them and they're fully solid, meaning the clog up the gridnav, but there's also the fact that they can be individually upgraded into various towers with attacks. Suddenly, the structures previously meant only for vision can now flat-out provide a defense against enemy units, and to boot they can be specialized into defenses against specific types of units.
  • Then there's ... sentry wards. Actually more of an orc thing than a human thing, but any race can get them as a hero item as a drop. They're the same deal as in League - invisible, static, and they're actually the kind that has true sight. Unreliable and has the same issues as League's wards, but effective nonetheless.

Now, let's look at these options: the scouting unit provides you with, well, a unit. You can move it around, poke it for funny quotes, and, well, you have a unit. It eats your food, helps you creep, and may be your key to victory. It's hard not to appreciate it, because it's a core part of the game. The towers, meanwhile, provide you with something that actually screws around with units, both ally and enemy, due to the fact that they force those units to path around them. Not to mention, you can put time and resources into upgrading your tower, and get paid off with some sweet, sweet defensive structures that'll protect your base while you're away. The ward ...

... it's a ward.

You don't own something cool. You didn't have any clever building placement on higher ground to make it so that it can see stuff without being seen, or attack stuff on lower ground while being harder to hit by those lower ground enemies. You just plop it down, and hey here's your vision. You can basically just forget about it entirely at this point, because it's essentially just a circular area where the fog of war doesn't exist for you.

Which ties into the territory control thing. It's just a circular area where the fog of war doesn't exist for you. That's the only benefit there is, and that's such a hard to appreciate benefit that one of the major stumbling blocks of League is warding reliably and looking at your minimap. Vision is one of the most important things in League, but it's just not interesting. Not to mention that by the fact that most wards are invisible and can't see invisible units, "owning territory" by having a ward there means both teams can "own" that "territory". Oh and said "ownership" fades away automatically, meaning whoever has the Sightstone or an off-cooldown trinket will have to trudge over there and replace it, despite no action from an opposing force causing the loss of territory. That's fun, right?

And, of course, a ward is a fantastic trap since it allows you to ambush unwary enemies incredibly easily ... provided you're in position to ambush those enemies at the moment they spot you. But as any League player can attest, they're really more anti-ambush tools than they are ambush tools.

Really, when you think about it, wards were just a handy tool in Warcraft 3 that weren't really all the necessary due to the fact that there were so many other, more interactive options for vision that you had available before you even got them. Hell, even them carrying over to DOTA had them much less necessary, because of the higher amounts of disposable summons and tools any hero has access to to get non-ward vision tools. But with how League's designed at its core, there's just not a whole lore of room for vision tools that aren't wards. The vision tools are always going to be somewhat automatic due to the fact that micro controls are basically non-existent in this game. Of course, some champions do have these tools that are still far, far more interesting than wards, mostly on marksmen.

Maybe the concepts of wards should just be retired in exchange for trinkets that provide tools like Maokai's saplings ( which work as traps and scouting tools ) and Kalista's Sentinels ( which provide moving vision that the opponents can see and destroy without specialized tools ).

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I don't see anything untrue with what you've said. You've elaborated on the problem with wards really well, TBH. That said, I want to quote what I think is the most important piece of your post:

Vision is one of the most important things in League, but it's just not interesting. Not to mention that by the fact that most wards are invisible and can't see invisible units, "owning territory" by having a ward there means both teams can "own" that "territory". Oh and said "ownership" fades away automatically, meaning whoever has the Sightstone or an off-cooldown trinket will have to trudge over there and replace it, despite no action from an opposing force causing the loss of territory.

You also point out how all of the wards (all of them) function as circular AoEs of vision. This statement here alone should illustrate how much untapped design space there is in the vision game. Also, all of these wards, with the exception of blue ward and pink ward being vulnerable (because they're visible) have no inherent way to outplay them. With invisible wards, as you mention, "they have no idea you even warded there until the wards dies and leaves its debris."

Could you imagine a ward that was visible and granted vision in a cone, with that cone rotating around it? What if that ward was indestructible but could be temporarily disabled by a few attacks? (Pink Wards have an infinite duration, so such a design shouldn't be out of question.) And what if we called that ward the 'Sentry'? Wouldn't that make sense? Wouldn't that be flavorful?

What about a ward that granted sight in a long straight narrow line, only being blocked by terrain, brush, units, etc? What if that ward was invisible, but could be discovered by proximity to it - no specific counter-item needed. I also mention the idea of the 'mandrake ward' aka 'Snitch' in my post, which grants no vision and instead pings out danger. Well, what if the enemies could hear it when it pings? It'd give them a way to outplay it, since they have a rough idea of it's placement.

I think vision is the least explored design space in the game, and that there is room for tons of cool tools be they wards, trinkets, items, summoner spells, or neat champion abilities. Tons of possibilities!

Speaking of champion abilities, some of them are very interesting like Kalista's Sentinels. Notice how it's the only vision ability in the game (iirc) that has a different vision paradigm (it's a cone instead of a circle AoE). I think the future of the vision game definitely lies with more champion abilities that grant sight. Have you ever considered how Shaco's boxes grant vision, but he isn't a support, but Bard's shrines don't grant vision, but he is a support?

It's obligatory at this point that I shamelessly plug my own two champion concepts, both of which play with vision in a unique way. Hopefully you'll check them out and it'll really get your mind spinning to come up with new and cool ways of playing with vision! So many possibilities! :)

  • Oracle, the World's Witness, who plays on the archetype of the psychic and seer, her gameplay revolves around manipulating her Field of Sight and that of others.
  • Imoen, an Honest Thief, who wields a giant magical key capable of opening dark and mysterious corridors and creating keyholes for her to peek through.
Maximum Morde2 votes

Started reading, was too long, gave up and left.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

I understand. I thought the formatting would make it easier on the eyes, but oh well.

Maximum Morde1 votes

It's not your fault. I lose focus easy, like a small child.

Linna Excel2 votes

Sometimes the mechanics have to trump flavor.

DrugsForRobots5 votes

While that is true sometimes, MaRo explains their relationship to one another:

Myth #1 – Choosing Function Over Flavor Means Function Is More Important - While I understand why people might jump to this conclusion, this isn’t the reason. Why choose function over flavor? Because function has much less flexibility than flavor. In the functionality of game design, there usually is a single best answer. For flavor, there are many answers. Thus, when the two butt heads, the more flexible item needs to give in to the less flexible. Flavor, thus, isn’t less important than function. It’s merely more adaptable.

Myth #2 – Flavor And Function Are Opposites - This misconception comes from the fact that the two at times come into conflict. This doesn’t mean they are opposites. They’re not. As I explained above, the two are the key forces that go into making a game. The best games are the ones that bring the two forces together in harmony. This union, I believe, is one of Magic’s greatest strengths.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Am I the only one who doesn't have any problem with ward design (aesthetically speaking)?

Yeah, it looks like an eyeball on a stick. But that's what it DOES, you put a remote eye somewhere and it looks around for you for a while. Not everything in the game has to be complex and deep; thinking that to be the case is how we end up with overloaded kits that prove difficult/impossible to properly balance. (separate issue, but similar conceptual roots)

Wards don't have to look like DeviantArt rejects. They don't have to have the functionality level of a Swiss Army knife. They don't have to have creative names; the names should tell you exactly what they do. Vision wards grant ultimate vision. Stealth wards are wards that are stealthed. Sweeping Lens helps you sweep for wards. Farsight Ward lets you look at areas that are far away. Oracle Alteration.... is a terrible name that has no meaning beside an homage to Oracle's Elixir, so I'll give you that one.

Every time we take a descriptively named item/effect/whatever and give it a fancy, artsy name, we make the game that much harder for new players to learn.

Amelie1 votes

I agree with you. I can see why some people might want to look at it at a deeper level, and I'm sure Riot could make wards more interesting/flavorful/nice-looking/etc.

But at the end of the day, I don't really care that much, nor do I think I need to care that much, as a player. I just call them "pink" or "trinket" or something anyway.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I honestly don't have a problem with the actual model that's used for wards, but I do think that giving them unique names (similar to how the trinkets all have unique names) would go a long way toward making them feel more exciting and giving them their own identity.

And I would argue that with the correct name, the game actually becomes easier for new players to learn. Like MaRo says: "having a good metaphor eases game play. If players can apply outside knowledge to implicitly understand game rules, the game’s complexity goes down."

I don't know if the name 'Beholder' means anything to you, but it's a staple creature of DnD (it's the pink floating eyeball in the post) with magical sight and a ton of health. Sound like anything you know?

item 2043 :)

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I'm actually a major DnD nerd, I know exactly what a Beholder is. :P

What I'm worried about is people that don't. If you DON'T know what a Beholder is, then the name doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

IcyPepper2 votes

"Ward" means to guard and protect, which wards kind of do. It's not the best name ever, but it's somewhat appropriate.

I can see your point though. It's not too flavorful, and it would be like calling item 3105 "magic shield" and item 3026 "revive vest."

Angry Monster2 votes

Riots goals and the way they approach things mean the 2 will never meet. Riot wants more team fights and more contested objectives; so they take away vision. Now players smart players play even less risky and even more so in competitive. So less fighting happens, objectives are given away.

What ever and devs think they want probably will never happen. The game has gotten more and more damage oriented as the seasons go by, removing the possibility of attrition/vision wars from ever being a viable thing.

I would love riot returning back to a season 1 or 2 mindset on the game. I remember when 5 minute battles of wards would happen. Vision fights actually meant something and you had to dump actual income and fight tooth and nail for it. But Riot is on the PATH OF INTERESTING GAME PLAY which loosely translates into who can blow up the enemy in under 2 seconds. Who ever makes 1 wrong move post 30 minutes looses instead of a team making the right move to close out the game.

Riots designs are completely against their stated goals, has been that way for a while. So when a dev says X, they really have no clue what they are really saying. It just sounds pretty.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

While I don't like how damage has seemed over the top lately, less vision is generally good for the game. Less vision should create more suspense, more teamfights, more vision battles, more opportunities for stealthy outplays. Warding shouldn't be an attrition battle of who has more wards on them and faster attack speed for clearing the wards dropped in their bush. Warding is also incredibly safe currently in League, due to the moderate cast range and instant-speed cast time.

But for example, if there were wards with clear weaknesses and clearly defined strengths, then playing around them should be a test of skill for the opponent. I talk about the idea of a 'Sentry' ward - a visible ward (with a red eye above it) that has True Sight in an AoE cone (that's also visible) that rotates around, the Sentry itself being indestructible but capable of being temporarily disarmed or totally bypassed provided you're quick enough (although disarming it will effectively show your opponent that some one is over there.)

See what I'm getting at? Ward battles shouldn't be a back and forth 'drop wards in their bush, clear their wards out of mine, repeat 3x' but rather a sort of puzzle that challenges the players to reassess their situation and work with the environment to conceal their movements - not be a system of item-based hard counters.

Angry Monster2 votes

Less vision should create more suspense, more teamfights, more vision battles, more opportunities for stealthy outplays.

It doesn't thought this season proves it, Which was my point. You and riot can claim it **SHOULD ** do something but should and does are two different things. We have less vision now than ever and we have less fights than ever.

You want more fights? Allow teams to be able to move forward instead of counting on the fog of war. initiation tank need vision to be used and played properly.

The game has devolved into base sieges and slowly losing do to yours and Riots type of logic.

See what I'm getting at? Ward battles shouldn't be a back and forth 'drop wards in their bush, clear their wards out of mine, repeat 3x' but rather a sort of puzzle that challenges the players to reassess their situation and work with the environment to conceal their movements - not be a system of item-based hard counters.

Completely disagree and so does the evidence of the past. Ward battles lead to skirmishes and fighting. The game were more bloody in past seasons cause of the abundance of vision, not cause of the lack of it.

The current vision game may be healthier for supports, but the overall game took a hit cause of it.

But you are a shacco main so you are bias.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I should've been more clear: less reliable vision is good for the game. Less reliable vision should create more suspense, more room for skill expression, more room for outplays, etc. Wards should be able to be outplayed without needing a specific counter-item.

I actually want more vision options, but each option needs to be unique, have its own pros and cons. All of the wards the game has seen have operated on the circle AoE of vision. I mentioned the idea of a Sentry and a Snitch, I want to see more unique instances of vision that break the mold of the circle AoE. I also want to see more champion-based vision and vision-denial.

You mention how tanks that want to engage need proper vision. Well, what about a trinket item that increases your champions vision in a long cone in front of them, even into brush, for a short while. I want to see people have to think about where they ward and when, and not just spam their wards.

Angry Monster1 votes

Yeah cause Oracle sweepers are so good countering/tracking Rengar, Twitch, Shacco, or any other stealth. /s

The game does not need meaningless vision options like you want. They only add confusion and will cause less lights. Example the vision less ward that said someone is in a certain area. All you are going to get is players leaving that area, cause it is deadly to go checking bushes that may or may not have enemy champs in them. Sure in bronze you are going to have the select few that run in cause they have no clue what they are doing, but that is the wrong way to play.

Trinket wards fail as legit options as most people switch oracles post 12. Also they have shorter life spans than sight stone wards. Pinks have to be sacrificed for a full item build, making them scarce in the late game.

Lastly we have the vision jungle item. This item is trash, it guarantees that you can never 1v1 the enemy jungler if they have blue or red smites. When you would want it (late game) can not switch to it unless you rebuild the item. It is not even used in competitive where vision is at its highest value.

Riots and your view of vision scare me and are not healthy for the game at all. Both of you fail to understand how the game is effected by human reactions and physiology. We have tons of proof that vision wars cause lots of fights seasons 1 &2. We also have proof that limiting vision hinders the game and forces certain player behavior 5&6.

Last thought you seem to want options for the sake of options. This has been proven as a waste of time, effort and resources. There is always the most efficient way to play the game. X will be quickly figured out and having Y extra options will fail to be used.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

who knows really its a thing thats been there since the game started.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

So you're confirming my suspicion that vision is the least developed aspect of the game?

Shrek Luigi1 votes

I dislike the current state of wards because it gives a lot of Champions an extra degree of map-dominance through checking over walls or bush-checking/being able to sweep enemy wards themselves/wardhopping--as opposed to waiting for a support to cover it for you. It doesn't even feel like the advantage of being able to get free and easy map vision, with champions who are already really good at map-control/jungle invades in particular, is even quantified in respect to power-budgets or a healthy metagame.

Trinkets were a cool idea, but they shouldn't have been centered around the idea of a binary "I don't have a sightstone but I can easily keep tabs on you" gimmick. I think that the game would be a lot more fun if vision was a task that was designated more toward the support and jungler role, like in days' past.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

What you describe - the particular functionality of 'press a button, instantly get a huge AoE of sight at up to 400 units away' - is definitely a problem in my eyes. It's one thing to have on-the-fly, quick-access vision tools, but to have a tool like Yellow Trinket does kinda warp the game around it. It's too much vision for too little effort, in a way.

Personally, I really like the idea of item 3462, but I wish it could have more charges. Likewise, I'd like to see Yellow Trinkets be something other than a 'mini-SS for the masses' that, as Xypherous says, creates 'unmanned watchtowers - do nothing but win'.

Sherogarth1 votes

Fun fact: in polish version wards are translated as "totems". Its probably based of wards in warcraft 3 that were placed by troll witchdoctors so translation to "totem" seems ok.

If we go by this anology further everyone who played WoW know that totems there are aura/utility sticks. In LoL wards are already forced onto supports so idea of "stick-buffs" is not so crazy. They are easy to destroy and could add new objective for supports in teamfights. There already are healing totems and repairing drones in HotS.

As for vision wars I think that some kind of item spawning a scouting creature would be way cooler than an eye-stick. (Imagine new skins for your own scout :D)

Or even go as far as to create new class of champions: scouts. We already have strong candidats to match there. Teemo, Quinn, Eve, Kalista or new WW to name few.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I'm am totally against the idea of wards and trinkets doing anything other than grant information. Wards shouldn't slow the enemy, or speed up players, or heal them. As Teridax86 points out, "Wards tend to be used out of combat, bar the anti-stealth pink ward drop, and so giving them bonuses that would work best in-combat is bound to make them inefficient one way or the other."

I do like the idea of a 'creature summons' that scouts for you, kinda like item 3092's Ghosts, but I'm not sure how much design space is left. Kalista also kinda touches on this with her Sentinels. I'm all for more ward-skins though.

And it's a good thing you mentioned the 'scout' class of champions, as Riot needs to play up champion abilities that give sight and get info on the enemy, as a means of supporting the vision game across the board. :)

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Also, I want to add: people everywhere pay lip service to the vision game, saying things like, "vision OP" and "wards win games" but time and time again I see people wanting add speed buffs, or health regen buffs to wards, or something, which is very strange, IMO.

If vision is as powerful as people claim, can't it stand on its own?

RedCZ1 votes

TBH after I've read your post, I feel like replacing ward with poro or something to stand there and watch over the area for you. The pink ward can just be a magical poro. The only problem will be killing those poro to cut vision which seems to be cruel.

Well let's just replace the ward with Teemo then and remove him from a champion. No body care if Teemo die right? And he is a scout so he should do the scouting right?

notmebuthim1 votes

There are ward skins that make them more interesting, adding visual and sound affects. I find the space poro ward particularly amusing. Proper vision and proper vision denial are very undervalued. It isnt flashy, doesnt have a mini game attached to it, but there are benefits to finding and eliminating enemy wards. xp and gold.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

True, but then we get into the issue of 'what are wards'? Wards obviously aren't the body / model of the ward, since you can buy skins for them. It makes me think that the ward itself is the actual eye-icon or glowly sphere that floats above the body / model of the ward. Pinks, Greens, and Yellow wards all have it. It makes me think the ward itself is some kinda magical / artificial construct, independent of the body / model.

notmebuthim1 votes

That is a very good question. Well, if we think about the game its an arena and the champions are kind of like gladiators. But there are things in the game only for the human player, like the mini map and I believe the wards. I think this is a reason for them being a bit different, they dont "belong" in the "world of the rift." So wards could be what you said, magical / artuficial construct, independant of body/ model.

ChocolaTea1 votes

Geneforge Gazer/Eyebeast :0

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I don't want to see a literal Beholder in the game, but I think the name is cute and flavorful, and communicates the function of Vision Wards perfectly. :P

Wolfeur1 votes

How about a Frozen Watchers artifact/construct for the pink?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/9e/Bard_lore_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150219223007

Example: item 3649 Hextech tower (small construct with camouflage effect) item 2043 Watchers' gaze (magical freljordian artifact with surrounding arcane eyes)

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Could work, but it could also be skin, so it gets into the question of 'what are wards?'

I look at wards in game, and each of them has a little icon above them. Pink has a pink eye, Yellow has a little yellow orb, Green / SS wards have a little green orb, all floating above the ward model / body itself. Notice that with ward-skins the icon above the ward never changes, always corresponding to the type of ward you're using. This makes me think that the actual wards aren't the body / model of the ward, but the little icon itself - some kinda magical / artificial sensor or something, IDK.

Also, as far as the Frozen Watchers are concerned, I'd much rather see an actual Oracle / Watcher champion. :)

CoffeeDave1 votes

I'm not good with ginormous posts, but here it goes: I feel the issue is more then just Theme vs Function, it's Options as well. Doesn't matter if you use item 2043 item 3340 item 2049 item 3363 They all pretty much do the same thing: Grant vision, the only real difference is how long and how good. Especially now that Riot is doing these large sweeping class and item updates, these vision items are being left behind.

Here's what I propose and I'm sure there's someone out there with more game knowledge to tell me why this is bad. Allow wards to stay as the 'subtle' vision option, but add items that allow players to place traps (nothing as obnoxious as Teemo ). Like a land mine or explosive runes. Like traps it wouldn't grant vision until someone steps on it, and the vision stays on the target for a short period of time. Traps are limited like wards of course (max 3 at a time from items). I would also allow a Hextech device that is basically a helmet with a camera on it, so you can place it on a minion or scuttle crab or something so you will be given the same vision as the creature has. You lose the helmet when the creature is slain. Finally, a "tree" ward. it starts as a small tree, and it grants vision, but the longer it's left alone, the bigger it grows and the more buffs it gives to allied minions/pets. This tree is visible like the pink. This tree also gives you that feeling like you claimed land too.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I would approve of a 'trap trinket' only if it had no damage or no slows - if it were purely vision based.

I like the idea of a ward that 'grows' overtime - what you call a 'tree' ward - but just like the idea of a trap-style ward / trinket, it needs to be soley vision related. Buffs don't belong on wards.

I find it odd that so many people admit to vision being incredibly powerful and important - "vision wins games" - but no one seems to think it can stand on its own - they rush to add speed buffs, or healing regen, or something to the wards. Very strange. :S

CoffeeDave1 votes

It's mainly because while vision gives you important information, it's up to you/your team to do something with it. Everything else in the game either makes you stronger or sets your opponents behind directly. If you're playing a ADC and you pick up item 1038 , you just do more damage. You don't need to think about it, you just do it. Play a tank and get yourself item 3143 , You're just tanker. You don't need to do anything else. Vision is important but you still have to work to make them worth while... I can't think of a better analogy for support then the ward. Powerful that can win games, but you can't do it alone and requires work from the rest of the team.

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