Riot will not admit Ranged Tops are a problem...

Fraggleroc·Mar 8, 2019·7 votes·3,380 views

Does Riot recognize the problem at all?

46 Comments

FOR JUSTICEMar 8, 201912 votes

This implies anyone even said toplane is just for melee champions.

Ranged tops have always been a thing.

Shiroe OkazakiMar 8, 20193 votes

take ranged tops into the adc role. and they would still win lane.

FOR JUSTICEMar 8, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shiroe Okazaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A540AtPQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T14:22:20.953+0000)

take ranged tops into the adc role. and they would still win lane.

Here is a list of all ranged champions where its considered to be meta for them to be played toplane, either as a primary or secondary role. these are their a winrates for being played botlane. if i miss anyone, feel free to let me know:

Vladimir 45.81% (7.3% pickrate) Jayce 38.75% (less then 1% pickrate) Teemo 51.72% (less then 1% pickrate) Vayne 51.39% (23.8% pickrate) Kennen 54.93% (less then 1% pickrate) Viktor 42.73% (less then 1% pickrate) Quinn 43.56% (less then 1% pickrate) Heimerdinger 57.29% (less then 1% pickrate) Karma 33.33% (less then 0.1% pickrate) Gnar 44.44% (less then 0.1% pickrate) Malzahar 53.33% (less then 0.1% pickrate) Urgot 38.46% (less then 0.1% pickrate) Lissandra 28.57% (less then 0.1% pickrate) Kayle ? 42.49% (less then 1% pickrate) Neeko (this one popped up recently) 56.17% (3% pickrate)

the numbers dont lie, they directly refute your statement by proving one of two things (even both in most cases):

they arent even worth picking into the botlane unless you're a one trick
when they are picked, they arent even winning

literally the only 2 people on this list that can be seen as dominating toplane as well as botlane being ranged, are neeko and vayne. one of which is a marksman anyway.

so yeah ranged tops dont in any way beat bot laners. thus proving they're not even that big a problem.

TobykachuMar 8, 20191 votes

Their entire viability in the top lane comes from how well they can shut down melee top laners with nothing but the range discrepancy. They are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, but these instances result in one of if not the single most unenjoyable experiences in the entirety of League of Legends.

FOR JUSTICEMar 8, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Their entire viability in the top lane comes from how well they can shut down melee top laners with nothing but the range discrepancy. They are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, but these instances result in one of if not the single most unenjoyable experiences in the entirety of League of Legends.

but thats simply how melee vs ranged works. its not only toplane, midlane has it when playing any mage vs an assasin or tank, jungle to a lesser extent but they usually lose 1v1 die to the first strike advantage, and support tanks vs any enchanter or mage. the only reason the OP even posts this is because people seem to have the notion that toplane is made for only tanks and bruisers, and ranged champions shouldnt be there. no champion is locked into any lane, except for limitations for jungle, or enchanters.

Dix MckenzieMar 8, 20191 votes

And it begs the question, what did you even want done? Non-meta picks wins games sometimes so Riot isn't going to Nerf them in lane or restrict them in lanes, the post literally has no significance to the "Problem" It's just an anecdote. So I got my popcorn and i'm watching this go down. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

VreivaiMar 8, 20192 votes

The shorter length of mid lane vs. top lane makes the range advantage less oppressive.

FOR JUSTICEMar 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The shorter length of mid lane vs. top lane makes the range advantage less oppressive.

then it would still be equal in at least botlane.

VreivaiMar 8, 20192 votes

Bot lane has 2 people in it.

TobykachuMar 8, 20192 votes

Okay, let's dissect why the range into melee discrepancy is at its most notable in the top lane. Simply put, most if not all tanks and juggernauts simply don't have the tools necessary to close the gap/deal enough damage to successfully kill or even pressure a ranged top laner 1v1. That's not to say that all melee top laners straight up lose to them. Some specific champions can easily prey on the squishy ranged champions, such as Riven and Pantheon, with their high mobility and crazy high damage. Almost all ranged top laners have some sort of speed boost, CC or dash that allows them to escape the damage of most all ins from juggernauts or tanks.

In the jungle the ranged disadvantage is negligible. The only 2 ranged junglers that can actively duel melee junglers are Graves and Kindred and you have no obligation to try and fight them 1v1 anyway. You always have the option of simply returning to your jungle and getting gold and experience from camps, or alternatively can gank and try and get kills for this gold and exp.

Mid lane is drastically different from top as all of the assassins that get played there have the ability to kill their lane opponent after they get a few levels. Not to mention, if your lane opponent is playing safe/building defensively, then your ability to roam around the map is much higher than a top laner's, who is almost entirely dependent on teleport to impact the map and if you opt into this play, your enemy will likely get multiple turret plates, since it takes so much longer to return to top lane. For tank/fighters mid lane, I have a similar notion to ranged top laners. If ranged champions generally are not allowed top then fighters/tanks should not be allowed to go mid, as they also generally create an unfun environment for mid laners.

Bot lane is massively different, since tank supports are not overly reliant on their damage to kill the enemy ranged champions. If they have the opportunity to engage onto the ranged supports, then generally they are able to, as they can CC them whilst the adc brings them down. Of course tanks and fighters can do the same top lane, if they have their jungler present, but relying on the jungler to help you as a top laner is much less reliable than bot laners relying on each other.

Shiroe OkazakiMar 11, 20191 votes

Mages win every bot lane and scale into late as for top laners look at what they all are. Mages except for neeko who shoulnt even be played top yet
urgot jayce gnar quinn. vayne is just broken all aroudn and needs big nerfs cause she is playable in every role. I could even prove this

Critmaster GarenMar 8, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A540AtPQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-08T13:58:52.440+0000)

This implies anyone even said toplane is just for melee champions.

why is bot lane just for ranged champions then?

marksmen mains lost their shit over a tiny bit of champion diversity and some marksmen getting counterpicked by a few non marksmen.

as a top main, this our life since season 1.

FOR JUSTICEMar 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A540AtPQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-03-08T18:39:53.834+0000)

why is bot lane just for ranged champions then?

marksmen mains lost their shit over a tiny bit of champion diversity and some marksmen getting counterpicked by a few non marksmen.

as a top main, this our life since season 1.

the only reason botlane was ever decided to go botlane was because its easier and much better to have more allies near an objective- this case being dragon.

other then that simple fact there wasnt another reason for botlaners to be there.

also marksmen mains werent pissed that mages were being played bot, considering that as well was always a thing, just they never got enough items to do what they normally did, no matter if the matchup was favorable or not

The thigh guyMar 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A540AtPQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-03-08T18:39:53.834+0000)

why is bot lane just for ranged champions then?

marksmen mains lost their shit over a tiny bit of champion diversity and some marksmen getting counterpicked by a few non marksmen.

as a top main, this our life since season 1.

Because any time an adc leaves botlane they get gutted to shit for daring to leave their role. Why should top be exempt from this?

PoskeMar 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A540AtPQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-08T13:58:52.440+0000)

This implies anyone even said toplane is just for melee champions.

Ranged tops have always been a thing.

yes back in season 1-2 maybe you had a quinn BUT THATS IT... THAT WAS FKING IT

the melee top ranged ratio wasnt 50/50 it was fking 95/5

and 95/5 is soomethingwe want

DuskDaUmbreonMar 8, 20199 votes

It's hard to recognize something as a problem when it isn't a problem...

TobykachuMar 8, 20194 votes

People that don't think ranged top laners are a problem are looking at win rates alone and failing to acknowledge that player enjoyment needs to be looked at aswell.

I was very excited when Ornn was released as he was the first top laner who actually looked interesting to me and as such I decided I would try and learn how to play him well. I ended up playing around 5 games of him top lane, 2 of which were against ranged champions (Kennen and Heimerdinger) and I have never in all my time of playing League had such an unenjoyable experience. Playing Twitch against a mega fed Regar with eyes only for me honestly felt more enjoyable to me than not being able to last hit without getting chunked by auto attacks and ranged abilities. I won both of those games, but despite that didn't find myself having any enjoyment during them whatsoever. Then thinking back to how facing a ranged top laner wasn't wholly uncommon I decided that playing top lane simply wasn't worth it.

Moody PMar 8, 20193 votes

people who say top is fine are not top lane players

The thigh guyMar 8, 20193 votes

Oh, so anything with range going top is a problem. But melee is allowed to be in EVERY OTHER ROLE.

Fucking top Laners man. :/

EedatMar 8, 20191 votes

Which ones? Like Jayce and............ Jayce?

Arcade LuluMar 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Which ones? Like Jayce and............ Jayce?

Gnar Quinn? Urgot?

4 ranged toplane champs that aren't even played that much (At least not in my games) I see no problem

TobykachuMar 8, 20191 votes

Teemo, Kennen, Heimerdinger, Vladimir, Ryze, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Vayne and Neeko are all champions that can have the potential to go top.

Arcade LuluMar 8, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Teemo, Kennen, Heimerdinger, Vladimir, Ryze, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Vayne and Neeko are all champions that can have the potential to go top.

i mean, literally every champion can go to every lane if the player really wants to So...... are we just going to make going ranged top bannable or something?

TobykachuMar 8, 20192 votes

To a certain extent yes, but the champions I've listed are all champions that I've seen go top multiple times in the past few months. Also add Viktor and Karma to that list.

Ofc I don't think it should be a bannable offense, however I do think it creates one of the most toxic gameplay experiences in LoL and from that standpoint I think it should be addressed. Especially considering almost all of these champions have a solid home in another lane.

Arcade LuluMar 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

To a certain extent yes, but the champions I've listed are all champions that I've seen go top multiple times in the past few months. Also add Viktor and Karma to that list.

Ofc I don't think it should be a bannable offense, however I do think it creates one of the most toxic gameplay experiences in LoL and from that standpoint I think it should be addressed. Especially considering almost all of these champions have a solid home in another lane.

With that logic, shouldn't mages etc be banned from botlane? It's quite a horrible experience to play with/against for example xerath ''supp'' and he has a perfectly good home in midlane

TobykachuMar 8, 20191 votes

I'm perfectly fine with mages also being removed from the support role as none of them offer anything of use to their team outside of damage and very limited CC outside of Zyra.

Arcade LuluMar 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm perfectly fine with mages also being removed from the support role as none of them offer anything of use to their team outside of damage and very limited CC outside of Zyra.

100% agreed Like, Zyra is completely fine 'cause she has nice poke but she also has cc with her E and R But for example Brand, Lux, Vel'koz and Xerath. They don't really bring anything else than kill stealing (Sure, Lux has her shield but everybody maxes that last so it doesn't really do much. Especially with a full AP build)

TobykachuMar 8, 20191 votes

Zyra actually offers enough cc to justify picking her as a support. Lux is on the cusp of being a viable support, especially with the buffs to her shield they made a while back, but I think she too heavily relies on items to kill people as her base damage is rather low. Also having the only shield in the game that's a projectile and therefore not instant makes it one of the hardest shields to properly make use out of

KazutoKMar 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I'm perfectly fine with mages also being removed from the support role as none of them offer anything of use to their team outside of damage and very limited CC outside of Zyra.

Lol xerath has stun and slow velkoz had a knockup and slow

TobykachuMar 8, 20191 votes

Xerath has one, ratively slow, single target stun that lasts for almost no time at all if used point blank. If anyone on his team requires protection Xerath cannot offer it to them. Vel'Koz knock up is on a moderate delay, doesn't knock up for overly long and is extremely hard to hit without landing some other form of cc first. Brand has the same stun as Xerath... except he has to land another ability first. This is not enough utility to justify playing this champion in the support position.

jocomotionMar 8, 20191 votes

Adapt or perish.

CrazyKnightBobMar 8, 20191 votes

I think you're missing the point here. Though it is admittedly frustrating to play against a ranged champion top lane, that doesn't mean that they should remove the option for ranged top laners. League of Legends is about being adaptable and finding different strategies to fight different foes, not a stale forced meta. If you're having difficulty with ranged top laners, use your items and runes to build against them instead of demanding ranged champions be banned from top lane.

Riot works pretty darn hard to make a game that's balanced, but still allows you many choices. If the game should be changed at all, maybe Riot should provide more choices for people trying to lane against ranged champions. Even so, you still have plenty of ways to fight it, such as Randuin's Omen (to partially remove crits) or Dead Man's Plate (for gap-closing.) To ask for a nerf to ranged champions would shut off a whole range of creative counters or off-meta strats. If Riot did that, what would be next, keeping poke supports out of bot lane or preventing tank jungles? Eventually we'd only be able to choose a champ for one role!

In summary, the point of buffs and needs are to make it possible to do whatever you want in League, not just force one way to play. As long as ranged champs don't get 65% win rate and make it literally impossible to play tanks top lane, don't expect too much other then a few minor buffs and needs here and there.

ASilenceof3PartsMar 8, 20191 votes

Ranged top isnt a problem it's a counter pick or a safe pick. If they blind pick a ranged top poke champ dont pick a melee champ into them. If they counter pick you, it feels bad but that's strategy. Of they pick a melee top, why not pick a ranged top to counter pick?

Strategy is a part of the game which is why draft exists and basically the entire game exists. Pciks/counter picks, aggresive vs passive, farm vs fight, roam vs. Lane are all on the table regardless of whether a character is ranged or not

Inkling CommandoMar 8, 20191 votes

MissFortune goes top lane Garen "this is fine"

Dix MckenzieMar 8, 20191 votes

That right there is a shutdown

Inkling CommandoMar 8, 20191 votes

i've done top mf before and it works for me.

ZackTheWaffleManMar 8, 20191 votes

I was playing blind pick a while back, and I picked Vayne top.

I ended up against MF, while they had an ADC Garen

feelsbadman

Dix MckenzieMar 8, 20191 votes

Let's talk about Dashing tho. As a ranged top laner a well placed dash by a melee really messes me up if I don't have enough health or even a chance to sustain. The all in for melee champs is still and always will be there it just depends who you play as the matchups are also a factor. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Pandemic PirateMar 8, 20191 votes

I mained top last season and I'm by no means amazing (first season I actually played ranked) but I welcome ranged champs in the top lane. For me it's an easy win if you know how to play against them. Solid wave management, itemization, match up knowledge, and knowing when you go all in is very important. You have to take your time as well, I cant stress this enough. And this is without even having JG camp them. Also just as important is just not losing lane. I know I know easier said than done. It's an acquired skill, one I haven't fully mastered ( lowly silver :/ ) but it's possible. Also I main Ornn and building Tabis in lane against a top ADC is so satisfying. Lull them into a false sense of security then ORNNNNNNN at 6 lol They can be horrible matches buddy trust me I know, but at the end of the day I welcome champ diversity. Without it, this game would be pretty boring. I hoped this helped somewhat and I'm sure youtube has more in depth tutorials for dealing with ranged top so check them out. Good luck and have fun!

Dark NephthysMar 8, 20191 votes

Exactly, it's one thing that a lot of people need to realize that even just going even with a ranged top laner and not feeding them when you are a melee champion (especially a tank) actually means you got out of lane in a better position and will offer more to your team then they would. Now it's a different story if you are playing a top laner who needs to win early and falls off like Pantheon where they rely on being a bully in the early game and kind of feel eh if they don't get fed, I understand the issues of playing them into a ranged champion. Though I've played Renekton into ranged quite a bit, and he really has no problem against a lot of ranged champions lol.

But as my top laners are generally Poppy Chogath Shen I don't really care to much about facing ranged top laners to much. If it's a really rough match up that I can't really fight, I could just sit under turret if needed and farm and not feed them. I may end up with a little less CS than them, but in the end, they won't be to much ahead of me and when team fights come around, I'll offer more to their team (well depending on which ranged top laner it is) and I'll at least be able to do my job as a tank.

Though I do main mid lane, but Top lane is my secondary role, so I don't play top as much as top lane mains do so the issues could be worse than what I experienced.

Mr PugglesMar 8, 20191 votes

All this guy does is complain all over the boards, and usually for stupid reasons.

Banning ranged champions from top lane is like banning melee champions from support or adc or any other role.

Deliberate InterMar 8, 20191 votes

How would you know?

ZephyrDrakeMar 8, 20191 votes

When ranged champions become a problem is when they'll do something about it.

MavëríckMar 8, 20191 votes

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Riot%20Balance%20Team

FragglerocMar 14, 20191 votes

And anyone saw this SKT vs KT game now? ... Vlad vs Jayce again.

Granted Vlad is not super long-ranged... Do non-toplaners even know what it takes to counter these 2 champs and other champs that abuse their range?

And the community is still on Riot's side, saying there's not a problem with ranged champs at top because Doran's Shield is a little on the weak side.

A little fed up with the community... You guys can stick to ur perception and opinions. Won't even care anymore. =)

FragglerocMar 15, 20191 votes

Denial...

You can't convince folks in denial.