At MSI only 1/3rd of champions were picked or banned

RedCyclone·May 12, 2015·17 votes·2,056 views

Diversity woooo

38 Comments

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 201517 votes

1/3 off ~120 isn't as bad as it sounds i think

Mandang0May 12, 20151 votes

It's pretty bad if you compare it to dota, and likely other mobas too.

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 20157 votes

last time i watched dota, i saw the same 15 picks over 8 games....

Mandang0May 12, 20151 votes

Last tourneys I paid attention to champion representation, it was far better than 33%.

Old Man TeetoMay 13, 20151 votes

Diversity within a team is worse in DotA, but between teams is great. A lot of this is because players learning to play 5+ champions at the highest rank is ludicrous, but when all the champions are worth learning for different strategies, different teams pick up different ones.

qaECfPHVZ8May 13, 20152 votes

Turns out 100 heroes were picked in the competitive scene within the first week after the newest patch, 6.84, came out.

DurzakaMay 13, 20153 votes

I feel like that stat is pretty meaningless when they still have heroes like Gyro being played in 10x more games than others.

Being picked in <10 games when the sample size is in the hundreds is damn insignificant.

Focus TeemoMay 12, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1hYF0dA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-12T20:40:36.526+0000)

1/3 off ~120 isn't as bad as it sounds i think

Indeed that's actually twice as many as normal XD

Typically only about 20 are competitively viable, now we have 40... PROGRESS!!!!

FiskMay 13, 20153 votes

Think about how many games there were also. Not a huge sample size on top of the fact that since this was so high stakes people are less likely to play niche or surprise picks. Just something to think about. I like the game balance right now.

WheatloafMay 13, 20153 votes

And EDG still pulled out an Eve.

iamleburkMay 13, 20151 votes

and mid morgana!

AtheosisXMay 12, 20155 votes

So? Do you expect each player to select a different champ every game or something?

RedCycloneMay 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So? Do you expect each player to select a different champ every game or something?

not exactly, but considering there were almost 300 picks to be played in those game, it's not exactly anything better then bad diversity, there were only 4 different junglers played in those game and almost 100% of the time cinderhulk was brought in those game (4 occasions where cinder wasn't brought) most of the support lined up with, you guessed it, tank supports, the same stale botlane lineup we have been seeing for over 2 years now

Penguin EclipseMay 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

not exactly, but considering there were almost 300 picks to be played in those game, it's not exactly anything better then bad diversity, there were only 4 different junglers played in those game and almost 100% of the time cinderhulk was brought in those game (4 occasions where cinder wasn't brought) most of the support lined up with, you guessed it, tank supports, the same stale botlane lineup we have been seeing for over 2 years now

The support role won't change until Riot changes their ways. The majority of the core supports get nerfed anytime they see popularity. Sona, Nami, Soraka, Lulu, even Janna (if it weren't for her strong disengage, she would be complete trash).

Zair UmbrasMay 13, 20152 votes

300 picks..? There's only about 120 champs. o.o How are you getting 300? If you mean 300 different combinations, then there's a LOT more than that, however certain champions work best with certain champs and certain champs work better AGAINST certain champs.

AhurathMay 12, 20154 votes

Well why does this apply to you?

DrakylonMay 12, 20154 votes

About 35% for pick rate alone actually, so a bit more. Still, it's pretty sad considering this is an event that features the best of all regions, so the "regional differences" counterargument doesn't apply.

Here's some pick rate stats I compiled using the esports site:

Out of 29 games (not including the showmatch, of course):

Thresh, Rek'Sai - 20 - 70.0%
Sivir, Gnar - 17 - 58.6%
Gragas - 14 - 48.3%
Maokai - 13 - 44.8%
Urgot, Cass, Sejuani - 12 - 41.4%
Rumble - 11 - 37.9%
Kalista - 10 - 34.5%
Nautilus, Alistar - 9 - 31.0%
Lucian, Annie - 8 - 27.6%
Azir, Hecarim - 7 - 24.1%
Lulu - 6 - 20.7%
LeBlanc, Nunu - 5 - 17.2%
Fizz, Twisted Fate, Jinx, Leona - 4 - 13.8%
Janna, Morgana, Cho'Gath, Zed, Corki, Ezreal - 3 - 10.3%
Vladimir, ^Ziggs, ^Diana, Bard, Ahri, ^Kassadin, ^Orianna - 2 - 6.90%
^Karthus, ^Jarvan, ^Tristana, ^Sion, ^Mundo, ^Irelia, ^Evelynn - 1 - 3.45%

Champion representation: 35.5% Champion representation past 1 pick: 29.8% Champion representation past a single team: 26.6% Champion representation past 2 picks: 24.2% Champion representation past 3 picks: 19.4%

(^ denotes a champion picked by only one team)

Yeah, Thresh dominated the support meta at MSI, while the jungle is down to 3 main contenders. Mid lane is fairly diverse, with only Cass getting above 10 picks. Gnar and Maokai top lane was the story of many games. Sivir and Urgot are the ADCs of choice.

Focus TeemoMay 12, 20151 votes

In season 1 there was a big "regional difference", EU and NA played very differently. However after season 2 everyone started to copy the Koreans and regional differences are very small now... sad but true. So now every region follows a very similar meta, and people aren't as creative unfortunately.

XxxLumberJackxxXMay 12, 20154 votes

Last year that number is like 1/5. So... was this supposed to be sarcastic?

Hinro HonatoMay 12, 20153 votes

pros are going to play what works best. It's not a fun and games event in a match. They are playing with pretty much their jobs at stake at all times. Of course they are going to play safe instead of experimenting.

TurquoiseYoshiMay 12, 20151 votes

The two people that played Bard (LustBoy and DumbleDoge) were all fun and games in their picks. That and the pros vs casters match.

FooDangMay 13, 20152 votes

Agreed, its just like Doublelift said, he hates Tristana, everything about her kit is stupid and she is boring to play...he plays her because...its his job...

Kariu RenaMay 12, 20152 votes

"cinderhulk brings diversity" lol

Focus TeemoMay 12, 201514 votes

Believe it or not Cinderhulk HAS brought diversity to the game. For years it was Lee sin or X, only for them to be nerfed a couple patches later. A while ago Jarvan was a demi-god. Currently just about every tank jungler is more or less viable, even if they're not quite as good as Gragas or Sej. Shaco and some other junglers are still strong enough, easily capable of cheesing and shutting out tank junglers for a while, and snowballing the game. Cinderhulk and red smite has prompted the return of Shyvana and Mundo to the meta(its actually common enough to see them top with smite). Garen, Shen, and Renekton also make good use of it top lane as well(although not competitively speaking)... top lane has legitimately never been more diverse or balanced(Hecarims still a bit crazy however). Rumble is still an extremely good top lane pick, and Vlad is a strong pick in the current meta as well. There where matches at MSI where we had six bans against top lane and they still found relatively good picks on both teams(This would NEVER have been possible before). Evelynn was picked at MSI as a jungler... AND WON. ADC diversity is NOT ruined by Cinderhulk its ruined by Kalista and Lucian as they're both "Swiss army knife champions" that are always a good pick. Then you have support... big surprise Thresh still getting picked over EVERYONE else(Cinderhulk didn't change this at all). Mid is barely affected as well. You could argue people pick Cass to much because she has enough damage late game to kill tanks... however her laning phase even scares Zed its so bonkers these days. Cinderhulk is very strong, however it HAS promoted diversity.

Ariel the CruelMay 12, 20151 votes

Sadly.... That shows an improvement...

Penguin EclipseMay 12, 20151 votes

It doesn't really matter what the meta is. We will never see true diversity with the way Riot handles balance.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20153 votes

Then how should they handle balance?

His GoatlinessMay 13, 20151 votes

Better. Balance is supposed to mean every champ has an equal chance of viable playability in competetive play. Buff outdated/underplayed champs enough to make them viable/competitive. Nerf champs/itemization that makes it impossible to get away with more unique picks.

IcyPepperMay 13, 20155 votes

You say that like it's simple.

There are over 100 champions. There are several items. You can't change one variable without changing the rest. Hell, one could even apply Chaos Theory to this to understand why it's not that simple.

You buff one champion, you nerf others. You nerf a champion, you buff others. It's quite subtle really, but balancing is never as simple as just buffing or nerfing certain champions. And don't even get me started on reworks.

JoquanMay 13, 20153 votes

you're only in silver and yet I seem to agree with your posts more and more each day..

IcyPepperMay 13, 20153 votes

Trust me, I say quite a few dumb things.

But I try not to look at things as absolute either, which I guess helps a lot.

JevelFaithfulMay 13, 20151 votes

SOrry but that's impossible with the way the game is designed. I'd like to side with you, but your definition of balance is impossible to acheive for more than 30-40ish champion in League. Here's my take on it, so take it with a grain of salt.

There really is only 1 way to play league, Riot keeps their game under tight control and it's hard to innove or play outside their meta. The few times a team comes up with something new, it is nerfed. There are only very few exceptions. Even in champion design, notice how outdated kits get reworked and now they fit in the meta?

That's because everychampion comes with a silent guaranty that he can do all the basic stuff : harass, farm, nuke, CC, mibility, little mana problem. Champions that are out of this are "outdated" and reworked or underplayed (I'm thinking of anivia right now). Every champion in Riot's ideal game has a clear role, an harass game, a minigame-based CC to fish for engages, some waveclear and kill potential.

Every champion is a jack'of'all'trade compared to other games and that's why they all boil down to the same thing. And that's why only a few of them will be above the curve and be played. 20-30 champion in each roles can't all be unique enough without being seen as too far outside the norm.

There are more pushy teams, more mid-game teams, more lategame team. But ultimately, they all play pretty similar. And they all have pretty much identical game dynamics.

Eraest97May 12, 20151 votes

I don't see the problem with Pro players picking safe picks to win the game?

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

I'd rather see the pick % across the board. There may have been ~40 champs, but of those, I'm pretty sure there's only like 15 that actually saw play more than once.

FooDangMay 13, 20151 votes

It all comes down to which team comp has the strongest synergy with the current patch and which comps counter that synergy...some champs just don't fit in the current meta/patch...

Double RainbowMay 13, 20151 votes

But it's not bad. In the spring split, about half of the champion pool was played (I don't remember exact number). MSI has only few matches and few teams, and it was important tournament for them, so they picked what was absolutely best of the best - so champion pool was obviously smaller. 1/4 of all the champions is still great number.

junglerboy16May 13, 20151 votes

They were playing on a stale patch and every team there was trying so hard to win that they all had to rely on comfort picks and the very most OP champs they could get their hands on. The upswing in diversity that we saw at the end of the spring split was partially due to teams that knew they were out of the running just pulling all the stops and trying whatever crazy stuff they could.

Also, neither UOL nor Gravity were at MSI, and those two teams are the real reason for most of the meta busting that was going on in EU and NA.

The LovelessMay 13, 20151 votes

Better than the same 12 champs we used to see last year in pro play