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WTF Are these Taliyah Nerfs????

Tacosrock··24 votes·6,390 views

Holllyyy crap. They're really gutting her now boys.

•Mana growth lowered to 50 from 60 •Base Mana regen lowered to 1.2 from 1.4 •Mana regen growth lowered to .16 from .17 •Threaded Volley (Q) no longer deals 50% extra damage to minions. Unraveled Earth (E) trap damage lowered to 80/100/120/140/160 from 80/105/130/155/180

This is, honestly, one of the biggest nerfs since Kalista or Kindred. It's a shame too, because she didn't get that much time to shine. So, as you can expect now, she will be ABSOLUTE garbage in soloq and probably not pickable in LCS or other championships either. The reason why is because now she has less pushing power (A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT LESS AT THAT), less damage for poking people in lane, a worse laning phase overall due to the mana nerfs (Which also affects her clear, cuz W into E costs a lot of mana), the nerf to her R so that its 3 minutes. And on top of this, shes incredibly hard to use compared to other champions... I mean honestly I'd rather just see a rework at this point than these nerfs. I guess Ill have to find another mid laner now... Damn. What a shame. And to think, it is only because of LCS and LCK and whatever other championships... Pisses me off.

54 Comments

LadyRenly16 votes

the minion changes for Q is really, really dumb

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

It will drastically alter her lv1 stategy (being able to instantly clear the casters in the first wave and slam the wave into the turret) as well as overall farming and jungle camp clear if wandering around lategame. Chances are some of it will be lessened.

Jinzo Torrance1 votes

No, it's not. She can't shove lane instantly and actually needs to use W and E if he wants to shove like she did before this BS 50% increase in minion damage.

Astôlfo14 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/08/824-pbe-update.html

The mana related nerfs were reverted at the least. Nerfing Q/E is still fucking stupid.

VivaLaKitten13 votes

Riot buffs Veigar but nerfs Taliyah http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/4551555/oh-ok-o.gif

Lord Azır7 votes

{quoted}

Holllyyy crap. They're really gutting her now boys.

•Mana growth lowered to 50 from 60 •Base Mana regen lowered to 1.2 from 1.4 •Mana regen growth lowered to .16 from .17 •Threaded Volley (Q) no longer deals 50% extra damage to minions. Unraveled Earth (E) trap damage lowered to 80/100/120/140/160 from 80/105/130/155/180

This is, honestly, one of the biggest nerfs since Kalista or Kindred. It's a shame too, because she didn't get that much time to shine. So, as you can expect now, she will be ABSOLUTE garbage in soloq and probably not pickable in LCS or other championships either. The reason why is because now she has less pushing power (A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT LESS AT THAT), less damage for poking people in lane, a worse laning phase overall due to the mana nerfs (Which also affects her clear, cuz W into E costs a lot of mana), the nerf to her R so that its 3 minutes. And on top of this, shes incredibly hard to use compared to other champions... I mean honestly I'd rather just see a rework at this point than these nerfs. I guess Ill have to find another mid laner now... Damn. What a shame. And to think, it is only because of LCS and LCK and whatever other championships... Pisses me off.

She's not hard to use though. My first game I ever played with her at mid diamond elo I went 9/4/7 and got an S.

But I guess when you're an Azir main like me all champions are basically a joke in terms of skill

[slayer-jinx-catface]

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Probably explains how I can pick up Riven in only a game. :3

Tacosrock1 votes

Heh, youre funny. But uh, ive never played azir in my life, so yeah. Anyways, I'm saying that she is harder to learn and understand as a whole compared to other champions, and how you do on one game does not make that much of a difference... sorry

Lord Azır5 votes

{quoted}

Heh, youre funny. But uh, ive never played azir in my life, so yeah. Anyways, I'm saying that she is harder to learn and understand as a whole compared to other champions, and how you do on one game does not make that much of a difference... sorry

It's not a joke, here's my proof

http://i.imgur.com/ie58icR.png

526 mastery points and highest grade is an S.

Let me remind you I'm diamond 3 so this is mid diamond elo we're talking about. Taliyah is one of the easiest champions I've played in awhile. You want to see a hard champion? Go play Azir.

AliceFelis6 votes

Luckily they took back the mana nerfs. I could see the E nerfs, it can be really really strong But the minion damage removal is really stupid and hopefully they take that back too. (I'll accept just a decrease in the percentage honestly)

It doesn't make any sense they buffed her bc she was doing so bad when she was released and now it feels like she's just getting nerf after nerf :/

Tacosrock4 votes

I agree with you 100%, but they should just keep the 50% extra damage to minions the way it is on live servers... I mean god damn, at least give her one skill that has some reliability.

AliceFelis1 votes

I wish they'd keep it too but if they feel it absolutely can not stay as is I'd like to at least keep it with slightly less damage ;;

Marshbouy4 votes

This is, honestly, one of the biggest nerfs since Kalista or Kindred.

lol tbh tho her mains have a 60% winrate so yes these nerfs are pretty much justified.

Tacosrock9 votes

What exactly signifies a "main"? Even then, she's a high skill cap champ. She should reward people who practice the hell out of her, instead of being very hard to play and only get mediocre results out of it, you know?

Marshbouy5 votes

100 ish games.

yeahhh no. then azir mains would have 70% winrates (with 200+ games) that is unacceptable. not to mention champions like master yi, and garen would be almost worthless if they capped at 54% while champions like taliyah capped at 60

Tacosrock4 votes

See, youre missing the point though. Champions like Azir and Kalista, well lets just say, their kits do not fit the balance of this game. Taliyah, on the other hand, CAN be tweaked without completely gutting her. Even if the Azir "main" winrates were high, they deserve it. If they practice it, they should be awarded, I'm sorry. And champions like Yi and Garen take considerably less skill and can completely melt Taliyah, even the good yis and garens, in the right hands.

Marshbouy4 votes

Even if the Azir "main" winrates were high, they deserve it

yeah no

Tacosrock1 votes

I can totally understand that it is subjective, especially for a champion like Azir. But there has to be champions like Taliyah, like Cassiopeia, like Gragas, like Nidalee, that bring more skill to the game.

CeexSett2 votes

"Gragas"

What? There are way better examples of champions that require skill to the game than Gragas.

WoonStruck2 votes

Yes, Gragas, the champion who, when he was completely broken and could 1 shot any non-tank with just Q+R and was pick/ban, had a 34% winrate.

Gragas, the champion that, no matter how strong of a showing he makes in competitive, never seems to become pick/ban in solo queue, despite having strong damage, sustain, tankiness, utility, disengage, pick potential, etc.

Gragas is a pretty simple champion, yes, but using him well requires a lot more skill than it looks like it would.

CeexSett1 votes

If you are gonna list Cassiopeia, Tallyiah, Azir and Nidalee in a list, you don't group them as the same difficulty as Gragas.

He is tanky so it's a very forgiving champion, his E has a very large hitbox, has damage reduction and heals to allow survivng in sticky situations, has decent mobility, his ult has a large effect radius, so even if you miss it by a bit it still does the job. It requires some macro knowledge, but what jungler doesn't?

WoonStruck3 votes

I'd argue that Gragas is harder to make use of than a few of those, actually.

Cass, Tal, Azir, and Nid are all very forgiving champs as well.

Tal's hitboxes are pretty large. Utilizing her ult well is what's difficult about her.

Nid's only 'skill' is hitting Q. Its braindead after that, especially after they removed the R AA-reset.

Azir is one of the safest champs in the game. Its getting kill pressure with him that's difficult now. Mechanically he takes getting used to;** its his utility that's hard to make good use of, not the damage/safety.** Most people use him for the damage because its so insanely safe overall.

Cass isn't exactly hard, especially after the rework. She's got an extra tool, and E is no longer nearly as reliant on Q/W. She got easier than before, and she wasn't all that hard then either.

Not to mention how itemization favors them all, outside of maybe Nid.

Its a long-shot to call any of that, outside of Azir's mechanical requirements, more difficult than Gragas, who has 4 significantly delayed abilities (outside of point-blank E), 3 of which are skillshots.

I'm not downplaying how difficult it can be to utilize them; simply stating that Gragas is just as hard to utilize well, outside of optimal use of Azir's utility.

Tacosrock4 votes

I'd also like to add that 100 games can swing one way or the other. If you want true statistics, I think people should look at 500-1000 games to get a more accurate value. 100 games can invariably change, in my opinion.

Requiemsfire2 votes

Azir's kit doesn't really fit the game in terms of balance. It exist to such a point where anyone who has actually learned the champion isn't simply rewarded for being good but actually becomes problematic for the rest of the game and anyone they play against. When he's strong Azir simply limits the game in a sense that you must either counterpick him or ban him all together against someone who knows how to play Azir.

Also it really bothers me when someone says a champion takes no skill, all champions take skill even if its not mechanical skill. That's why there's a massive void difference between a diamond Garen and a bronze Garen.

Wolfess4 votes

{quoted}

. And on top of this, shes incredibly hard to use compared to other champions...

um no?

She has incredible kiting potential. Her Q alone can farm an entire wave of minions due to the large missile hitboxes hitting multiple minions. It has the range of a goddamn fully charged Xerath Q while being 100% completely mobile like lucian's R, using it to kite anyone who gets close. Her mines cover the width of an ENTIRE lane, and that's no exaggeration. You literally have to walk through a FIELD of slow she sets on the ground to get to her if you're not someone like azir or LB who will cross the gap in the blink of an eye with their abilities, or morg/xerath who have ultra long skillshots, and that one ever annoying little pop-up skillshot that honestly doesn't really bother me that much, although it can pop her slow field's dash effect which it honestly shouldn't, and an ult that makes ganking and roaming very simple and makes impassable terrain in an instant.

She has the same issues as Azir, she has super safe poke, super safe kiting and disengage, and mobility with high ratios

Treune813 votes

Taliyah isn't hard to use.Draven, Lee, Orianna, Cassio are harder champions I think.

Tacosrock1 votes

The addition of her wall is what makes her harder than these champions, at least in my opinion.

Only Play Darius3 votes

It's AurelionSol all over again. Giant nerfs to a brand new champion that no one seems to actually play....

JerulEon2 votes

LOL so fucking true. I even mentioned this to Riot in a survey. Looks like they don't care.

LFG2 votes

Nerfs against minions are truly stupid She already has to move around the lane to find unworked ground just to push the lane and after this nerf, how is she gonna be pushing, and poke around like this is really stupid 50% bonus damage was given right after Taliyah's release, this didn't come with Taliyah, they added it and now because people are learning and doing well, they are taking it away Unless they gonna compensate on taking the pushing power away for Taliyah, Riot is simply saying "Don't play Taliyah" Rito plz

ReZisT Lust2 votes

Have you tried pushing the wave by maxing e?

inplane2 votes

Having so much waveclear on a basic ability is insane. The bonus damage needed to go. She was nothing but a Q spam bot.

At least now there's more room in her kit. Having so much power in Q forced E and W to take a huge hit. W got a huge increase in cooldown and E barely tickles people who build any sort of MR all because of 15% falloff damage. Return her E and W to their former glory and she'll be a great champ again, just not a TF on steroids. She already has a great roaming ult and passive so having supreme shove & roam power at the same time is plain unfair.

Tacosrock2 votes

I doubt that returning them back to their original states would make a difference. In fact, the one thing that started to make Taliyah good was the 50% bonus damage to minions, so I'm assuming its going to be a pretty rocky road ahead for her if these changes go through

inplane1 votes

{quoted}

I doubt that returning them back to their original states would make a difference. In fact, the one thing that started to make Taliyah good was the 50% bonus damage to minions, so I'm assuming its going to be a pretty rocky road ahead for her if these changes go through

The thing that made Taliyah good was that people started to figure her out. The few people who actually cared for the poor 37% winrate champion were dedicated enough to learn her. After her 50% bonus damage buff, people started to play her more because she became an easier version of TF. She eventually became a pick/ban in tournament play and a treasured Q bot in higher elo all because of the 50% bonus damage. She didn't need it. Not one bit. Especially with the amount of trouble her E, W, and R could cause.

We didn't give her any time to shine. We just shoved changes into her and hoped for the best all because people couldn't figure her out.

ReZisT Lust2 votes

You clear waves with e and w ? Iv cleared em eith just a e

JerulEon2 votes

Apparently, she's like sleeper OP, especially in high elo. Such a shame to nerf her even further. Just because she is strong =/= nerf worthy but Riot is full of cry baby over-eager nerf bat wielders imo.

Requiemsfire2 votes

I don't really understand Riot when it comes to putting out nerfs to mana regen in particular unless it's some kind of absurdly high value. I mean it directly affects a champion's ability to use spells throughout early to late game and while most champions with mana shouldn't have unlimited spammability(if that's a word') with their spells (i.e Velkoz ) nerfing mana regen seems to support this passive play where you avoid using your abilities all together.

GrReaper962 votes

They reverted most of them besides the Q and E nerfs

DoctorInju2 votes

The problem here is a fundamental flaw in Riot's champion design system. Taliyah, Yasuo, Aurelion Sol, Azir...all of them have high skill floors and high skill ceilings. They require significant investment of time to learn, so most people don't realm understand how they work. This creates the same winrate trend we're all familiar with: low early, low mid, sudden spike. You're left with a committed group who learned the champion and can use it effectively vs. a general public that doesn't know its mechanics. Riot nerfs the champ based off of the mains and LCS players and it's left in an unplayable state for everyone else. It's bad, sloppy design.

The reverse is essentially how you end up with Ekko: a brain dead champion with so low a skill floor that anybody can suddenly start using him any time a new OP build comes out for him. When Aurelion Sol was going to get needed for his high winrate on mains, you didn't see a sudden increase in his plaurate. Tank Ekko is discovered, though, and he was in every game.

This is the crux of the issue. Riot needs to stop releasing champions with too high or too low a skill requirement, because these champions end up requiring constant adjustments. The champs should be easy to learn and hard to master, to borrow the old cliche. I love Taliyah, but I recall predicting this exact turn of events when I discussed her with a friend. I'm sorry to see it happened, though. RIP, Taliyah.

Voluug132 votes

All of this happened because of the vector change.

She was not supposed to be a combo champion, but non-Taliyah mains complained and now she is yet another combo champion.

4feedersonmyteam1 votes

Shes pretty fun against mages and is preety fun spamming q and postioning but wtf why nerf the creep damage how are u suppose to fucking clear wtf

LSmaster161 votes

For what its worth, hitting the q damage to minions was warranted though maybe not by as much as they did. Really annoyed at how they keep nerfing the e w (now w e) combo, when all they really need to do is stop e from casting during w. (Or revert to 6.11 and nerf q minion damage by a bit.)

Troll Slaiyer1 votes

rip

Imperial Japan1 votes

It'd be cool if they could separate lcs and normal people patches

Bagguette1 votes

I JUST STARTED PLAYING THIS CHARACTER AND SHE CANT EVEN INSTANTLY GET A PENTA LIKE HALF THE MID LANERS, YET SHES GETTING A NERF? WHY RIOT!!!

Hige1 votes

it's still on PBE and don't come with that bs of "99% of PBE changes go through" because that's not statistically true

Veltox1 votes

Revert the vector change and then these nerfs.

Ormylar1 votes

I personally feel that they definitely should reduce the damage she does to minions but not remove the bonus damage out right. Maybe reduce it to 25% or 20% or something? I agree that her wave clear is ridiculous right now but thinking back to playing her when she was first released, she struggled super hard with wave clear. Unless that's what Riot wants her to be at, I think removing the bonus damage entirely is a bit much.

Teslyn1 votes

They where made .. not because of win rate or anything... but for worlds due to the fact of how valued she was in the pro scene. riot is trying to push the game off just a handful of champions.

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