[{quoted}](name=KGB Vlastoyavich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9sVoEcKB,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-01T15:09:00.226+0000)
Actually, fun fact. You cannot CC Vi in her ult. You can try to CC her before she ults. But if she clicks on you and it begins, you cannot stop her. You can CC her AFTER her ult, similar to how you can CC Lee sin after he ward hops behind you.
Why are you repeating something that I have already stated besides for the sake of reading your own words?
Obviously Vi's ult is unstoppable during the duration, but during the dunk, the part where she slams the target, her CC immunity ends.
And it does not take less than a second for Lee's combo. Unless he's already in melee range, you have all the time of his q flying through the air, making contact with you, him flying through the air, making contact with you, placing a ward, dashing to it. Then the ult comes. Happens all the time to me. Happens all the time to team mates. And the cool thing is that I've seen it countered so much. Like I said before in this post, just CC him while he ward jumps.
CC works on everyone, the argument that should be given is, how likely are you to CC X or Y champion.
After all, I've seen a Jarvan get CC'ed during his ult all the time, doesn't mean it is a reasonable argument.
Suggesting that the Lee Sin Combo takes a significant amount of time to complete is silly.
Land the Q, press R, it is guaranteed.
Use your W, slap R, boom,it is guaranteed.
Time means little if it can still be executed without difficulty.
Time only matters if the individual is giving you the chance to react.
As we have seen whn pros deal with Lee SIn, it is very difficult primarily because of how he can reposition himself.
Vi doesn't get to escape because of her tankiness. The shields and all. But the issue is that her point and click displacement ult has no counterplay other than "Well she can't leave." That really only applies to team fights when others can beat on her, and that applies to Lee Sin too. If he goes full combo on you to kick you into his teammates. He can't leave. He's just as dead as Vi. They do effectively the same thing. They both lock down a carry and somehow deliver it to their teammates. Lee sin uses positional displacement on the actual carry pushing him towards the team. Vi uses enemy displacement by carving a path towards the carry allowing the enemy team to rush in afterwards.
Actually Lee Sin CAN leave.
Q in? W out.
W in? Q out.
His R works as displacement so he is guaranteed to kick one person out of place to ensure he has a better chance of escape.
Vi?
You have an eternity to deal with her.
1v1?
Her ult moves slowly enough that you can flash/use other mobility abilities under tower to punish her.
Vi' ultimate is not as overwhelming and this is clear from LCS play, and her lack of popularity in s4.
Vi is picked because she can clear and tank the jungle more easily than others where as in S4, other junglers could clear faster and apply greater pressure earlier on.
Why Vi is being nerfed and not Lee Sin is because there is less counterplay to Vi. If your ADC is in the back, Lee sin will not get to him. There are other champions that Q has to go through first. Vi, provided in range, does not care about your positioning. She will go through it all. That's her niche, and the counterplay comes after the lock down, not during.
Vi is being nerfed simply because she is meta,not because she is dominant.
The argument of less counterplay is a poor one because, and this will blow your mind, she wasn't nerfed during all of s4.
So what changed Vi from then and now?
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
WHat changed with the game?
The jungle.
So...the issue isn't VI, it is the changes occurring around VI.
This is why the changes on her are very light and unnecessary.
Vi cares if your ADC is in the back. SHe will die if she ults and damage gets focused on her, she cannot survive 5 champions targeting her at once.
VI ults the ADC once they are out of position so there is time to blow them up.
Vi ults as soon as it seems the ADC can be killed, otherwise, VI plays the waiting game just like Lee SIn.
Her ult is not a guaranteed kill just like Warwick's is not a guaranteed kill.
Vi was also fairly meta in s4. Lee sin much more so, yes, and he has always been meta. I'm no Lee Sin player or lover, I dislike the champion as well and want him nerfed, but I'm looking at this objectively and although Vi does less, her less has much less counterplay. I think it's good that her ult's damage was reduced. The ultimate lockdown should not come with a lot of damage. The ms reduction was just to make it harder for her to ult. All of her nerfs are centered around her nerf so the amount of counterplay will remain the same but it will do less for how easy and effective it is.
The argument of there being less counterplay is poor, because it must be considered that the game is a team one and not game of 1v1.
Few champions are balanced entirely around 1v1, and those champions are less effective in team fights.
There is plenty of counterplay for VI's ult.
If Vi ults you? Zhonya.
Vi ults? Flash over the wall to the jungler and proceed to kill her in 2v1.
Go under turret to kill her.
Team fight? MOve further towards the back to ensure her team cannot follow up and let your team punish VI.
Drop CC in the place she will dunk you. Her unstoppable effect stops during the dunk.
Lee Sin?
Once LEe Sin ults you that is it. The damage goes through, you cannot Zhonya and you cannot break the CC effect of his knockback.
His ult leaves a lot less counterplay because it cannot be stopped once struck because it is hard CC that does not allow the use of Zhonya's unlike Vi's.
Due to how long the animation is for Vi's ult, she is less able to escape, and she has less MS now to do so.
Lee SIn?
He doesn't care, ults your ADC, now everyone is knocked up and he is running away.
Counter play = the ability to use a counter strategy
Counter play =/= stopping an ability whenever you like.
Also with Jarvan, yes, he can get out, but his damage will suffer heavily. Effectively all he'll do is ult and auto attack. The E Q has the armor shred and hard damage and to use that to escape means whoever he's ulting isn't taking as much damage.
And yet again, when Vi ults, it's a hard lock down followed by a fuck ton of armor shred and damage When Jarvan ults, it comes with armor shred but the ability to easily get away before anything happens. Jarvan has much better disengage, but is not as tanky. Especially with recent Jarvan nerfs removing armor from Demacian standard, Vi will be more of a rock than him with stats and the shield.
This is filled with misinformation.
FIrstly, Vi's armor shred is LESS than Jarvan's armor shred.
Jarvan's Q is 26% armor shred maxed.
Vi can only do 20%, and W must be ranked up fully which is the second one
Vi's ult has a significant travel time and can be zhonya'd, and she can be dragged to the back where the team can more easily deal with her without your team being able to follow up.
Second, Vi is LESS tanky than Jarvan.
Jarvan Shield = 210 when maxed.
Vi health needed for equivalent = 2100 HP
Jarvan shield max amount = 510hp.
Vi health needed to be equivalent = 5100
Jarvan has slightly more HP and slightly more armor than Vi possesses by default.
His shield is on a lower cooldown (due to CDR from the items he builds), and scales more powerfully for him as a tank.
THe only aspect stat wise that Vi beats Jarvan in is with pure damage, and this will vary depending on how much armor the target possesess.
Lee sin might need a nerf or two yes, but it's not that easy to nerf him without breaking him. It seems easy to just say "Well reduce ult's damage" or "Don't jump to wards" but all that will do is increase Jarvan's and Vi's popularity and nothing will really change. I think any nerfs to any of those 3 would be appropriate at any point. Just because Sin is the most pressing shouldn't mean the others shouldn't be thought about either.
Um...yes it will.
You are making the mistake of thinking "well if Lee Sin is nerfed, Jarvan and VI will only be more popular,"
This is false.
Vi and Jarvan are picked because they can keep up with Lee Sin.
Not because they crush other junglers.
Several junglers can deal with the other two and would see more popularity if Lee Sin sawa rework/heavy handed nerfs.
You deal with Lee Sin first, then see what results.
You don't deal from the bottom up, that's just bad design philosophy.
