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ADCs are not overpowered

ReshiKillim··11 votes·1,122 views

That being said, many of them are currently extremely obnoxious. Which I mostly blame on certain support champions, two particular enchanters, as well as how abusive kleptomancy has been, rather than on the ADCs themselves.

Lulu makes any assassin that's not Nocturne hard pressed to be relevant in helping take down the ADC, even with edge of night. The extra health and knockup from her ult, her shield, and the targeted point and click CC from polymorph, just makes it incredibly hard to take down your target.

Even with double spellshields and a complete lethality build, it can still be extremely difficult to take out the enemy ADC if Lulu is babysitting them. The double spellshields just makes you slightly less likely to get immediately nullified and killed.

Janna like Lulu, also has two hard CCs, a slow, a massive shield, but has an even more impactful ult if you're unable to interrupt it quickly enough.

The biggest problem with Janna, is that she gives free AD. A ton of it. Max level shield with a measly 200 AP is a 350 HP shield, not counting the major boost from ardent and redemption, and 60 free AD. That's more free AD than a max level Vayne ult gives after her nerfs, and almost as much as her ult gave at max level before the nerfs. And that's only with 200 AP. 10 free AD and 70 more HP shield (still not counting ardent) per 100 AP.

So with 600 AP on Janna, you've got a 630 HP shield, and give your lucky ADC a free 100 AD as long as the shield is up. Though on average, I'm pretty sure you won't be at around 600 AP on Janna. However, with 300 AP, your shield gives a pre-nerf Vayne ult, a significant chunk of free HP, on as little as a 5.5 second CD depending on the runes.

Let that sink in for a moment. Pre-nerf max level Vayne ult damage buff every 6/5.5 seconds until the shield is popped, with just 300 AP and 40/45% CDR. For literally any champion it's slapped on. And it lasts for 5 seconds unless you pop it.

27 Comments

Primaquarius8 votes

ADCs are the strongest class because they get their item spikes the fastest

GripaAviara4 votes

What, how? ADCs main core:

3400 dmg item item 3031 2600 crit item item 3094 1300 armor pen item item 3036

7300

Assasins: 2900 armor pen dmg item item 3147 2900 armor pen dmg item item 3142 1300 armor pen dmg item item 3134

7100

This ADC is super strong bullshit goes strong. Not only that but ADCs are very farm reliant, a good bot lane vs a good bot lane won't have many kills, while a good assassin already roams before 6 or at least at 6.

I've see so many people very good at assasin mechanics, but farms until lvl 9 inlane, just burst the ADC or other squishy then tries to run even though he could easily kill another target. And so on. But yeah, assasins struggle because of 2 things: tons of CC that delay the burst and shields. Sups now get enough gold to be a treat. This is the ADCs primary power, the support.

Also, tanks have too much damage, which makes them super strong. It's a tanks meta and ofc ADCs, their counter class excels.

Strong Sups and Tank meta make ADC the best class, not raw ADC power. Ofc there are some expections like twitch or MF that are not balanced, but that's another story

Azeranth4 votes

Zeal items are the hardest scaling and cheapest items in the game :thinking:

Azeranth1 votes

Upvote him, so everyone else who thinks like him can see how dumb they are.

Malix Farwin7 votes

No, they are overpowered.

Sonasaurous7 votes

Ah, the classic "Nerf the supports, not the ADCs" argument.

ReshiKillim2 votes

I'm all for supports being relevant. I don't think supports in general should be nerfed. Lulu in particular is just plain obnoxious to play against, though I don't think she's overpowered, or really in need of a nerf at all.

Vayne's ult got nerfed because it gave too much free AD, Janna's shield gives a ton of free AD, sometimes more than Vayne's pre-nerf maxed ult, often earlier in the game.

The only thing out of those two I think needs a nerf, is the amount of free AD Janna gives to allies. If Vayne needed to have her ult be nerfed because of getting too much free damage, Janna should also get nerfed for giving out a ton of free AD, on a much lower cooldown.

Sonasaurous3 votes

tl;dr: No.

Except the difference between Vayne and Janna is that Vayne, even with her nerf, can still deal a lot of damage and carry games.

Her base AD at lvl 18 is 92.2 Her maxed ult grants 40 bonus AD for 12 seconds that can be extended with every kill

So at max ult rank she deals 132.2 AD with just a basic attack, WITHOUT ITEMS OR RUNES, not even taking in her bonus 70% AD she gets from her Q that she is 100% using during her ult (that would make her dmg output without items 224.74 AD every 2 seconds when she can use an empowered auto again).

Janna cannot. A standard Janna support build looks something like this: item 3092 item 3504 item 3107 item 3190, along with boots, and now I guess 1 AP item. For the sake of argument, let's say item 3089. And also for the sake of argument, we are ignoring runes.

That's [insert math here] a total of 290.25 AP.

E at max rank grants 40 bonus AD + 10%AP

10% of 290.25 = 29.025

So. Janna. At max E rank AND full standard support build would grant a bonus of 69.025 AD to one champion for 5 seconds at a time.

Now, Janna's math plus Vayne's math = 201.225 AD for standard auto during Vayne ult, or 293.765 for a Q empowered auto during Vayne ult. For 5 hypothetical seconds that a full-built maxed-E Janna even put her shield on a lvl 18 no-item Vayne as she tumbles into the teamfight and Janna is supporting from the back.

WHICH SOUNDS LIKE A LOT AND GOLLY GEE SEEMS TO MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT SEEM VALID.

Except that's just one example for one adc that already deals an extreme amount of dps.

What about Miss Fortune? I'll give you the math (using the same logistics I did for Vayne): 211.025 on the FIRST hit, 140.025 on subsequent hits because MF's only auto attack damage multiplier is on her passive. For ONE auto per NEW target.

What about Jinx? 186.615 WITH Fishbones active (Otherwise, 175.925 per auto)

What about Tristana? 175.025 per auto

So, no.** Janna should not get nerfed because one overpowered ADC with her own form of bonus AD gets more AD from a Janna shield.**

ReshiKillim1 votes

With the assumption Janna is giving 69 AD..

Twitch has the same deal as Vayne. With MF, that AD goes up to love tap, her autos, double up, and roughly 828 more damage to her ult before resists. Though resists take a chunk out of it, that's still a lot.

With Jinx, fish bones doesn't get a big buff to it, but that's 96.6 more damage on Zap, and up to 103.5 her ultra mega death rocket to the person it hits directly. With Trist it's 136.62 AoE damage on her max stacked E. Doesn't really make a difference to Kog since he's Kog.

With Xayah, it's pretty massive. On her E alone it's 41.4|37.26|33.12|28.98|24.84|20.7|16.56|12.42|8.28|4.14 more damage per feather, up to 227.7 more damage for 9 feather hits to all enemies before resists. 69 more damage if the enemy is the first person hit by both hits of Xayah's Q, 38 to all other enemies hit, 69 damage to her ult, and 82.8 more damage per autoattack for Xayah for the duration of deadly plumage.

And it's 38 more damage per auto to all targets hit after the initial target hit her passive.

Like Xayah, it's pretty big on Caitlyn as well. 138 damage more on Cait's ult, 117.7 on first target hit by Cait's Q, scales up pretty significantly with headshot.

And on every normal crit without any passives or anything modifying damage besides the crit, that's 138 more damage, 172.5 damage with IE. For every ADC that crits, for as long as they're shielded by Janna.

Sonasaurous1 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Of all the numbers you've gone out of your way to pull up (and at this point I don't really care to confirm Twitch or Kog's numbers after briefly looking at Twitch's and being absolutely disgusted by his potential damage output), Xayah is the only one who's damage even breaks 200, and that's with Janna's maxed E, full item shield (I'm assuming?). Meanwhile Vayne can break 200 without Janna's assistance.

At the end of the day game, Janna's shield at max rank with her full standard item build, is still ONLY GOING TO ADD 69 AD. And this is, of course, if she even gets item 3089, because without that her shield only adds [drumroll] 9.5 AP to 40 AD. That's 49.5 AD. Wow, what a game breaker.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Meanwhile all these numbers are just the ADC's BASE, MAX RANK, NO ITEM STATS. Have fun calculating the massive difference in damage Janna's shield realistically adds to any fully built ADC.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Going by 49.5 AD, for Xayah, that's 148.62 more damage per crit with IE and PTA triggered.

On average that's 123.75 more damage for crits with IE and no other damage mod, 99 damage on crits without IE or any damage mod. (Not counting armor)

On average with IE and no AA multiplier, it'd be around 75-80 more damage than without Janna's shield on a squishy with GA, and probably around 70-75 on someone with a zhonya's. So with PTA hat's 84-89.6 vs squishy with GA, 78.4-84 vs someone with Zhonya's.

Primaquarius1 votes

"I'm all for supports being relevant"

"Janna/Vayne is too good, nerf Janna"

I may not be the best support main out there, but I ban Vayne every time I land that role, since she is the problem area and not the support who can technically provide buffs to ALL allies

Mizaya4 votes

Supports have powercreeped immensely over the last 6 seasons, while ADC itemization is roughly the same, stronger than the past couple seasons but still not as strong as their peak in s2. Yet who's taking the blame?

If ADCs are nerfed to accomodate for Janna/Lulu, how weak would they be without them? That would be a stupid thing to happen unless they did another major rework of the role.

Azeranth2 votes

They're power creepering because they need it. They've been in the dumpster for the first two thirds of this games existence

Unironic SJW1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Kaikai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9p6LxHoL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-25T17:44:05.798+0000)

Ah, the classic "Nerf the supports, not the ADCs" argument.

And you didn't exactly refute the argument, so?

Azeranth6 votes

Ok, first of all. Upvote, but only cause I want everyone to see how wrong you are.

Secondly it's almost like WOW the support exists to protect the ADC. It'd be so balanced if just any assassin could negate the relevance of TWO ENTIRE CHAMPIONS, THE ADC AND THE SUPPORT it's like, hurr Durr, maybe that's the entire point, buddy, and you should isolate and kill the Support first. It's almost, now get this, as if Riot wants to make sure you have to play around the support, so they can have fun too. Hurr Durr Durr.

Third, the real reason ADCs are busted AF is because how cheap their items are. Fiora builds a tiamat before everything else. This provides a chance for the enemy laner to have an extended period of time to abuse Fiora because she can not get a full item. Components are always less efficient. This means the Nasus she lanes against can get his triforce before she gets her black cleaver. Nasus has a window of opportunity to abuse her, before she picks up a cleaver and abuses him and then Nasus takes back over. Fiora gains from the Tiamat, because it synergized and corrects a major weakness, which is her lack of waveclear. It's a key balancing point.

An ADC can buy a BF sword for 1300 and a shiv for 2600. Meanwhile a Black cleaver alone costs 3100 gold. That means for only 800 more gold, an ADC can have a full item AND have the largest flat AD item in the game, which provides insane synergy with the crit and the attack speed offerered by Shiv. Furthermore, this is insanely sclaing, and Shiv is alone, without it's PROC gives stupid damage comparatively to Black cleaver, even accounting for the added durability offered by cleaver.

It's too easy for an ADC to get their hands on too much stat synergy too easily and so much faster than everyone else. It's disgusting.

ReshiKillim1 votes

ADCs are strong, not overpowered. The only one I'd say was maybe overpowered, was Vayne, due to the targon's overheal meta and her ult, and she just got a sizable nerf. What makes ADCs abusive is how much protection is available for them.

Assassins are entirely built and balanced around being able to target and take down squishies. Supports come in a variety of types, with a variety of abilities.

I have absolutely no problem with champions like Braum or Tahm being able to protect their ADC. They should be able to stop an assassin from killing their ADC. With Braum, keeping his ADC protected actually involves skill and positioning while Tahm gives up on a massive amount of damage to do so.

Lulu and Janna are just problematic enchanters, not supports or enchanters in general. Besides them, I'd say a number of supports could use buffs after the support item nerfs. Lulu has a long history of being problematic due to the point and click nature of most of her Kit, and Janna's shield gives you a free BF sword worth of AD or more once it's maxed.

Lulu has a point and click CC, point and click shield, and a point and click ult that CCs enemies near an ally, slows them, and also gives the ally bonus HP. With locket, ardent, and redemption. this makes ADCs significantly tankier. Also gives them more damage and AS from ardent + pix.

Janna is less abusive than Lulu due to not being point and click in nature, but she gives out free AD, has two AoE CCs, a massive team heal, and is also able to make squishies tanky.

The ability to consistently make squishies tanky is the problem with these two particular enchanters. They make squishies tanky, while also making them stronger in fights, while also having the CC to keep enemies off their allies. Other supports are at a significant disadvantage against them.

Which is why Janna is currently the highest winrate and pickrate support.

Ardent + Redemption healing/shielding amplifiers stack the same way lethality does, which makes both Janna and Lulu's shields 20% stronger, and that includes the active of locket and Aery. Which allows them to not only protect the ADC with a massive amount of shielding, enough to nullify assassins and a good number of burst mages, but also give their entire team a significant advantage.

As for the comparison of BF Sword and Black cleaver, BC also lets you reduce the enemy's armor, for the purposes of all sources of physical damage and not just increase your own, 20% CDR, and it also gives you MS and a significant chunk of HP. Which is why it costs so much more than BF sword. It gives a lot more than BF sword.

AgeOfTheMage5 votes

While lulu's polymorph is annoying and janna does indeed exist that doesn't mean that the adc's aren't strong right now. While supports do help adc's, even without supports adc's can do REALLY well.

ReshiKillim3 votes

Yeah, ADCs are strong as a class, but not really overpowered. It's just that currently, some supports do too much to help them. Clarity is also a major issue, there's no kind of signal that Janna's shield, for example, is giving a massive boost to damage until it's popped.

AgeOfTheMage6 votes

my main problem right now is crit, crit just isn't a good thing for the game.

planters2 votes

I agree in that I think they should rework crit to be like lethality so it's more even in some way. Besides that, ADCs are "on-line" as soon as they have IE and a zeal item complete. Even if they dont have armor pen they still kill a tank really fast if they have even a little help from a support.

Azeranth1 votes

Upvote him so everyone can see how dumb he is, and all those of similar minds can see how wrong they are.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

meanwhile im here waiting for a mini rework on lulu where she is more than just an e spam bot

Rexxiee1 votes

Tank supports are way more OP than those atm though.

AdamFrostyBeast1 votes

yes the problem are their supports because they are so devoted in keeping them alive... it's like you are trying to burst a champion with 4.5k health in case of lulu... in fact even if you manage to do so you 've pretty much exhausted all your damage sources for the next 5-10 seconds. As a renekton main, which i feel he got a massive indirect nerf with the removal of fervor, i no longer go for the adc but focus down their support because if i try to take out the adc and he survives with his support intact it's like i made a huge hole in the water. Especially in the case of janna. The longer a fight progresses the bigger her impact becomes. Same goes for sona, lulu, taric, thresh. Oh yeah i would really like to see some number nerfs whether it be on the mentioned champions's abilities or support items that either boost heal/shield power or have active heal/shield themselves.

TheYordleGunner1 votes

More or less agree with what’s been said, though a big point that does need to be examined is zeal items. You can pretty much get away with building Rapid Fire, Static, Infinity Edge on a number of ADCs right now, not to mention that’s practically ALL that’s being built from what I’ve seen in silver and gold.

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