so, can garen get looked at soon?

Critmaster Garen·Mar 19, 2018·4 votes·1,128 views

hes already in a pretty bad spot at the moment.

8.6 is going to introduce conqueror, which is probably going to hit him indirectly. garen is more reliant on upfront defensive stats than other fighters (who usually have some heal or shield mechanics built into their kits) to survive.

20% of his opponents damage is just going to get through his w and passive resistances. hes already terrible at taking extended fights because of the large cooldown windows between his abilites, paired with the complete lack of in combat sustain.

i have a feeling, as soon as the new patch hits hes just going to additionally get shit on by every fighter who can run the keystone. its pretty garbage on himself, since the proc doesnt ramp up until after an entire ability chain.

21 Comments

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20182 votes

since when is 51% winrate is bad spot...

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

since when is 51% winrate is bad spot...

he does not have 51% winrate lmao. where are you drawing your stats from? bronze and silver games?

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:29:37.426+0000)

he does not have 51% winrate lmao. where are you drawing your stats from? bronze and silver games?

yeah i was... my bad... let me check diamond

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/diamond

oh.. down to 50.4% right.. totally needs buff.. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

yeah i was... my bad... let me check diamond

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/diamond

oh.. down to 50.4% right.. totally needs buff.. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

i guess riste had a good couple days with his weird tank build. it mostly revolves around being anoying with cc actives off items. if you actually want to carry on him, youre gonna have a shitty time.

and like i said. conqueror is going to make things harder for him.

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:55:44.025+0000)

i guess riste had a good couple days with his weird tank build. it mostly revolves around being anoying with cc actives off items. if you actually want to carry on him, youre gonna have a shitty time.

and like i said. conqueror is going to make things harder for him.

not every champ can carry.

hell even if i get 20 kills on my main Nidalee .. i still "carry" because my kit revolves around me diving in as a squishy champ

some champs need thier team.. garen needs his team significantly less than most other champs do.. but that doesn't mean he needs to be able to "carry"

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20184 votes

{quoted}

not every champ can carry.

garen is a juggernaut. thats his entire purpose.

and nidalee falls off, but she carries early game.

some champs need thier team.. garen needs his team significantly less than most other champs do.. but that doesn't mean he needs to be able to "carry"

if you play like an idiot, yes. garen mains q max in lane, which doesnt auto push the wave. early on it deals as much damage as a full spin, but frontloaded.

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T20:03:34.368+0000)

garen is a juggernaut. thats his entire purpose.

and nidalee falls off, but she carries early game.

if you play like an idiot, yes. garen mains q max in lane, which doesnt auto push the wave. early on it deals as much damage as a full spin, but frontloaded.

actaully she doesn't anymore...

even stupid safe junglers like Warwick can easily match her clear speed

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

actaully she doesn't anymore...

even stupid safe junglers like can easily match her clear speed

honestly, thats more of a nidalee problem though.

i never said she doesnt need some work. what is her identity even? as far as i understand, its supposed to be a jungle assassin. if she sucks at this right now, then she needs work.

garens identity is clear. as a juggernaut, hes supposed to carry by shutting down the largest carry threat on the enemy team. the option of playing and building him like riste does is cool, but being a worse tank than an actual tank, by loading him with aoe slow items so he can peel for his backline isnt supposed to be his identity.

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T20:20:21.835+0000)

honestly, thats more of a nidalee problem though.

i never said she doesnt need some work. what is her identity even? as far as i understand, its supposed to be a jungle assassin. if she sucks at this right now, then she needs work.

garens identity is clear. as a juggernaut, hes supposed to carry by shutting down the largest carry threat on the enemy team. the option of playing and building him like riste does is cool, but being a worse tank than an actual tank, by loading him with aoe slow items so he can peel for his backline isnt supposed to be his identity.

imo garen is MUCH better at shutting down mages and AP champs than ADC's becuase his silence stop fthem for doing anythign to him at all.. and he has a built-in summoner 1

as well as being able to outrun any champ unless they have a dash.. (which they cant use because thier silenced anyways)

garen's kit is totally antimage

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

imo garen is MUCH better at shutting down mages and AP champs than ADC's becuase his silence stop fthem for doing anythign to him at all.. and he has a built-in

as well as being able to outrun any champ unless they have a dash.. (which they cant use because thier silenced anyways)

garen's kit is totally antimage

he should also be able to shut down snowballing adc and fighters though. thats the entire point of the villain mechanic. not automatically just brutalize them, but its intended to make him a threat even to a fed opponent.

and honestly, the villain mechanic barely makes garen as strong against the villain, as darius is basically against just anyone.

the silence is mostly intended to be a sticking tool to keep people from dashing or flashing out of range once hes caught up to them.

the slow cleanse can easily be played around.

SwiftKitten88Mar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T20:48:22.154+0000)

he should also be able to shut down snowballing adc and fighters though. thats the entire point of the villain mechanic. not automatically just brutalize them, but its intended to make him a threat even to a fed opponent.

the silence is mostly intended to be a sticking tool to keep people from dashing or flashing out of range once hes caught up to them.

the slow cleanse can easily be played around.

i agree the villain mechanic is good for shutdowns, but generally if they are fed you need to catch them out of potion with a teammate to shut them down.. garen should be BETTER at doing this, but he should still have to.

also keep in mind that garen isn't really in any way in need of a buff.. his weakness to ADC is there yes but its the same weakness every single champion in the game has to them. they're flat out broken because of their itemization.

hell even as an ASSASSIN unless my hardcounters are in the game i am STILL most scared of the ADC. am i am SPECIFICALLY designed to take them down.

keep in mind that ADC are "supposedly" being addressed soonTM. this alone would negate the need for buffs.

also lastly.. i dont really think ANY champ needs "buffs" rather the ones that are too strong or even "average" like garen should be NERFED so that we dont have absurd damage creep and we HAVE things like "outplays"

KhristophorosMar 19, 20181 votes

But Garen can use Conquerer right? He can't use Aftershock so this actually helps him against champs who use Aftershock in trades.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

But Garen can use Conquerer right? He can't use Aftershock so this actually helps him against champs who use Aftershock in trades.

and how would he use it?

it takes 4 seconds to ramp up. so after you went in with a q and spin, even taking time to weave in auto attacks, it would only proc after he already dealt a majority of his damage.

yea, you can stand there and auto attack with additional ad, and some of the auto attack damage converted to true damage. but literally every single type of fighter and skirmisher is going to be better at auto attacking than garen. its a fight youre just going to lose.

grasp still makes more sense, since you can get the proc off and then run away until your cooldown is back up. IF you can run away.

KhristophorosMar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:41:08.560+0000)

and how would he use it?

it takes 4 seconds to ramp up. so after you went in with a q and spin, even taking time to weave in auto attacks, it would only proc after he already dealt a majority of his damage.

yea, you can stand there and auto attack with additional ad, and some of the auto attack damage converted to true damage. but literally every single type of fighter and skirmisher is going to be better at auto attacking than garen. its a fight youre just going to lose.

It ramps up the same way as Grasp so you can prep it by attacking/last hitting minions before you go for a trade. Grasp is what ppl use on Garen anyway right?

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It ramps up the same way as Grasp so you can prep it by attacking/last hitting minions before you go for a trade.

this is already why grasp is kindof shit.

i dont want to be forced to constantly push the lane to get a keystone. i want to control it.

grasp is just better in short trades, because you can ramp it up with a regular trade, get the proc and get out. as garen you dont want extended trades. you dont want to stay longer than 4 seconds, which conqueror kindof forces you to do.

KhristophorosMar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:45:22.169+0000)

this is already why grasp is kindof shit.

i dont want to be forced to constantly push the lane to get a keystone. i want to control it.

grasp is just better in short trades, because you can ramp it up with a regular trade, get the proc and get out. as garen you dont want extended trades. you dont want to stay longer than 4 seconds, which conqueror kindof forces you to do.

I'd expect Conquerer to be better if your opponent is running Aftershock tho. You're not gonna win a trade into Aftershock with Grasp right?

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I'd expect Conquerer to be better if your opponent is running Aftershock tho. You're not gonna win a trade into Aftershock with Grasp right?

honestly, i dont really give a shit about fighting against aftershock. the champions who run it dont deal enough damage to be a threat, and the cooldown is long enough to play around it.

like aftershock is on a 35 second cooldown. means you can easily get multiple trades in before your opponent has it back up. means most of the time, the champion with aftershock just doesnt have a keystone.

if theyre only trading with you every 35 seconds, youre just going to sustain anything off they do to you.

yea, they can stonewall you off from killing them, but that doesnt win them the lane either.

KhristophorosMar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:59:04.159+0000)

honestly, i dont really give a shit about fighting against aftershock. the champions who run it dont deal enough damage to be a threat, and the cooldown is long enough to play around it.

like aftershock is on a 35 second cooldown. means you can easily get multiple trades in before your opponent has it back up. means most of the time, the champion with aftershock just doesnt have a keystone.

yea, they can stonewall you off from killing them, but that doesnt win them the lane either.

IDK I feel like you're underestimating what Garen specifically can do into that trade if he's given more AD and true dmg. Aftershock users stun you, which kinda shuts down the trade potential of most champs but if Garen can get into his spin before the stun lands (not hard imo) then he'll be doing true dmg while stunned, cutting through Aftershock with some of his damage.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

IDK I feel like you're underestimating what Garen specifically can do into that trade if he's given more AD and true dmg. Aftershock users stun you, which kinda shuts down the trade potential of most champs but if Garen can get into his spin before the stun lands (not hard imo) then he'll be doing true dmg while stunned, cutting through Aftershock with some of his damage.

hes only given more ad and true damage after he already blew his abilities.

garen isnt a champion whos made to stay in the fight.

you go in with an ability rotation, try to get out until your cooldowns are back up, then you reengage. conqueror just doesnt work better with this playstile than grasp.

i have a PBE account. i tried it. it feels like shit to use.

whats the point of picking a keystone that is mediocre in lane and complete garbage by midgame, when you can pick a keystone like grasp that is mediocre early and mediocre midgame?

youre also still assuming, that youre going to face a lot of champions who are running aftershock in top lane. which just isnt the case. currently its mostly fighters back in top lane, and most of the time hes going to face someone who can use conqueror more efficient than him.

KhristophorosMar 19, 20181 votes

I mean I see where you're coming from but I don't think it's 100% unusable that's all.

MorganFreemanBotMar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mPMEYns,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-19T19:45:22.169+0000)

this is already why grasp is kindof shit.

i dont want to be forced to constantly push the lane to get a keystone. i want to control it.

grasp is just better in short trades, because you can ramp it up with a regular trade, get the proc and get out. as garen you dont want extended trades. you dont want to stay longer than 4 seconds, which conqueror kindof forces you to do.

Dude.

We're talking about 1 auto attack here, maybe two if you really want to make sure it's going to be up when you go in for trade.

Considering Garen trades in melee range, beginning with an auto and ending with a GIANT AOE DEATH BLENDER, you 'trading' is going to push the wave infinitely more than 1-2 autos to make sure you have conquerer up.