So about Kindred

Shinjusuke·Mar 19, 2017·3 votes·787 views

Am I missing something or do they just like.. suck now unless your team is coordinated?

Like, obviously I'm bad, sure.

And the Q change and W nerf hit their earlygame hard, sure.

But a drop from averaging like 10/1 or something before those two changes, to 3/7 per game or something (numbers pulled totally out of the air), seems pretty big.

They're sitting around a 50% win rate, so it's most probably something I'm just totally missing, but idk.

Seems like they're weaker than she should be these days, and anyone I know of tends to think of them as "meh" at best. Ideas? Advice? Abnormal build paths?

Cue the flaming and "git gud" comments.

6 Comments

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20172 votes

I don't completely agree with what Tormentula said, flash is good, but your Q can already cross thin walls and sometimes Exhaust is a must if you wanna invade early game against a Rengar or something. That being said, I haven't tried Heal yet, but it seems good as you could use it the same way as any other ADC, although Barrier would be better to pop right after your ult. Ghost is also fairly decent, lets you get to fights faster and gives stick that you kind of lack early game before Frozen Mallet. Ignite seems pretty bad, Ghost to stick or Exhaust to duel would be better.

Your build seems pretty good, except sometimes I'd swap Runaans for a Bork first, although I believe Bork changes hurt Kindred. Runaan's doesn't help you duel much (the crits are like 50 extra damage), and is mostly a farming/teamfighting tool. Frozen Mallet is a pretty core third item imo, it really lets you do a lot more with the extra health.

I gotta caution against Cleaver, it's simply not that effective. Same with Death's Dance - a Phantom Dancer, Spirit Visage, Randuins, or Guardian Angel would be much more useful. You've got plenty of damage, assuming 7~8 passive marks, Kindred doesn't scale well off AD, and Cleaver armor pen is too minimal to be really worth it. Defensive stats are much more powerful, as they let you apply your passive more. Especially because it means you won't be getting oneshot quite as easily, which as everyone knows, is the biggest weakness of an ADC.

ShinjusukeMar 19, 20171 votes

Heal I only took cuz I was laning that game, and so obviously didn't need smite.

Like I said to Tormentula, I personally think Flash on Kindred is just about as superfluous as Flash on Shaco. Historically I get far more use out of an Exhaust or Ignite.

Exhaust got nerfed really hard though, so I was trying ignite to hopefully pick up a couple marked kills early game from the Skirmishers + Red + Ignite DoT combo after the enemy flashes from a gank earlygame.

Sort've unrelated, but if you can explain the benefit of Barrier over Heal on Kindred I'd appreciate it. TBH ever since the Heal buff ages ago I've literally never taken Barrier because of the mindset that it's just plain objectively worse than Heal in almost any case, because a 30% shorter cooldown and 110 more temporary HP doesn't outweigh the value of the health being permanent, the heal applying to 2 people, and getting a 30% speed boost out of it. The only thing I can think of is because it's unaffected by Grievous Wounds? Which is good, but I rarely see GW in my games to begin with outside of Ignite, which is usually only on one person.

I might try Ghost if I stop buying Mobi Boots as Tormentula suggested, but then I lose the earlygame ganking/dueling power granted by Exhaust or Ignite. Plus, I've started shifting back to buying Frozen Mallet instead of Black Cleaver (which you also mentioned) so I don't really need the sticking power before earlygame anymore

The only reason I haven't been buying BotRK as much is because you're right, the changes really really really suck for kindred. The Active was really helpful in those early duels, and the shift from AD to attack speed hurts really bad on a champion who really needs Attack Speed and cares very little about AD. If BotRK's passive was anything else, it'd be a terrible purchase for Kindred now. Because of that I've been getting BotRK later, and picking up Runaan's earlier, because Runaans...

increases clear speed by a lot,
means that if we get to teamfights early in the game I can focus the champion that I should be focusing, rather than worrying about making sure I'm damaging the one I've marked, and just let the extra Runaan's shots worry about getting me assists on marked targets.

I should probably try getting Frozen Mallet after my jungle item and boots cuz I haven't tried that yet.

Cleaver I usually get for a couple reasons:

Kindred applies the stacks to multiple enemies easier than almost any champion whose name isn't Talon (which helps out the team in early teamfights)
The Phage effect is useful for sticking/kiting
The shift back into an "HP with a little AD" item from being an "AD with a little HP" item that it's been for awhile helps bulk them up
Their passive doesn't ignore armor, so even if I have a lot of stacks, stacking armor is still a counter.

If I were to replace Black Cleaver, what would you suggest in it's place? Guardian Angel?

If the game goes on long enough, what I'm usually going for is item 1419 item 3117 item 3085 item 3022 item 3153 item 3071

And then swapping out something for Spirit Visage if they're bursting. Should I just regularly swap item 3071 for item 3065 unless their magic damage is a non-factor?

Thanks for taking the time to provide suggestions, I appreciate it.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Heal I only took cuz I was laning that game, and so obviously didn't need smite.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but taking it as a secondary summoner while jungling doesn't seem like a bad idea. I don't completely understand why ADC's take heal, but Kindred is technically an ADC and should be able to use it just as well as any other bot lane ADC.

Like I said to Tormentula, I personally think Flash on Kindred is just about as superfluous as Flash on Shaco. Historically I get far more use out of an Exhaust or Ignite.

I have not yet tried Ignite, I take Exhaust for the dueling and so I don't get bursted by assassins before I have a chance to fight back.

Exhaust got nerfed really hard though, so I was trying ignite to hopefully pick up a couple marked kills early game from the Skirmishers + Red + Ignite DoT combo after the enemy flashes from a gank earlygame.

It's still got it's 40% damage reduction, which is what I was taking it for. I tend to build more around dueling the enemy jungler, and while Exhaust is pretty much mandatory for any tough dueling match ups early on, Ignite seems like it'd really help in ganks and finishing off a weaker duelist who the challenge isn't whether or not you'll win the duel, but whether on not you'll kill them before they can get away. I'll try that, and go for more aggressive ganks.

Sort've unrelated, but if you can explain the benefit of Barrier over Heal on Kindred I'd appreciate it. TBH ever since the Heal buff ages ago I've literally never taken Barrier because of the mindset that it's just plain objectively worse than Heal in almost any case, because a 30% shorter cooldown and 110 more temporary HP doesn't outweigh the value of the health being permanent, the heal applying to 2 people, and getting a 30% speed boost out of it. The only thing I can think of is because it's unaffected by Grievous Wounds? Which is good, but I rarely see GW in my games to begin with outside of Ignite, which is usually only on one person.

It's simple, really. After ulting, popping Barrier is far superior to heal because the shield being temporary means nothing if it's a burst duel, because both of you will be really low after killing each other inside of your ult. It's also better against assassins and other burst in general.

I might try Ghost if I stop buying Mobi Boots as Tormentula suggested, but then I lose the earlygame ganking/dueling power granted by Exhaust or Ignite. Plus, I've started shifting back to buying Frozen Mallet instead of Black Cleaver (which you also mentioned) so I don't really need the sticking power before earlygame anymore

Personally, I'd take it if I didn't need the dueling power and was against a weaker jungler. Ghost is a decent replacement for your Mobo's and also helps stick once you get their, because you have no slow besides E yet.

The only reason I haven't been buying BotRK as much is because you're right, the changes really really really suck for kindred. The Active was really helpful in those early duels, and the shift from AD to attack speed hurts really bad on a champion who really needs Attack Speed and cares very little about AD. If BotRK's passive was anything else, it'd be a terrible purchase for Kindred now. Because of that I've been getting BotRK later, and picking up Runaan's earlier, because Runaans...

increases clear speed by a lot,

means that if we get to teamfights early in the game I can focus the champion that I should be focusing, rather than worrying about making sure I'm damaging the one I've marked, and just let the extra Runaan's shots worry about getting me assists on marked targets.

That's true, and I haven't played Kindred since the Bork changes. Makes a lot of since (although I'd think your Q would get you assists on marked targets anyway).

I should probably try getting Frozen Mallet after my jungle item and boots cuz I haven't tried that yet.

Cleaver I usually get for a couple reasons:

Kindred applies the stacks to multiple enemies easier than almost any champion whose name isn't Talon (which helps out the team in early teamfights)

Yes, but at the same time no because you're low range, you'll be hitting whoevers closest to you most of the time, not the priority targets in the middle. This is fine because Kindred excels at taking down tanky targets with Challenging smite and %health damage.

The Phage effect is useful for sticking/kiting

I guess. It's not huge though. I mainly use Phage in lane to last hit a minion and use the full 60 MS to help engage rather than to stick.

The shift back into an "HP with a little AD" item from being an "AD with a little HP" item that it's been for awhile helps bulk them up

I see

Their passive doesn't ignore armor, so even if I have a lot of stacks, stacking armor is still a counter.

True damage has done pretty well for me, but I think I've usually gotten an LW item instead. However, your points make a lot of since. The build path feels pretty bad though, at least before - Caulfields did almost nothing for me and Phage was only slightly better for it's health.

If I were to replace Black Cleaver, what would you suggest in it's place? Guardian Angel?

Yeah, I find defensive items really good on Kindred because of the current burst meta. Not dying instantly to assassins is a great way to make sure you're actually dealing damage, and it lowers your reliance on your ult.

If the game goes on long enough, what I'm usually going for is

In the past I've been grabbing GA or Randuins over Cleaver because of Talon Zed MonkeyKing Khazix Rengar etc. Dying instantly is probably the thing that hurts me the most.

And then swapping out something for Spirit Visage if they're bursting. Should I just regularly swap for unless their magic damage is a non-factor?

Usually, for me, there's an AD assassin who is much scarier, and because of a mages usually delayed burst (Lux ult has a delay, Syndra ult has a delay, etc), there's time to decide whether or not you need to ult, unlike a Talon who jumps out at you from shadows, but if AP is hurting too much SV would be great. I'm curious whether Wits End would be a good item against them, as well. Even if you aren't hitting them, draining a tanks MR still helps and still makes yourself tankier. So far, I've dealt with mages by juking skillshots with Q and with a large health pool. They do hurt, though, but my build usually doesn't have space to deal with them so I usually make do with Frozen Mallet as my 'ap' defensive item.

Thanks for taking the time to provide suggestions, I appreciate it.

No problem, this is really helpful for me as well.

TormentulaMar 19, 20171 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Shinjusuke

Lets start with the obvious...

summoner 4 - why aren't you using this.. you average more deaths and fall off easily cause the enemy sees no flash kindred and literally sets the entire game up around trapping and picking you off. There is nothing you can only 1v1 with ignite or exhaust, you either lose that 1v1 or win it regardless in a 100% hp vs. 100% hp scenario.

Builds: item 3117 is bad. is good if you're putting so much overbearing pressure on the enemy early on and throughout the game (which is why only elise, eve, and lee buy them), but kindred is a scaling champion who would much rather buy something more beneficial to kindred as the game progresses (like berserkers). Bloodlust and thunderlords are really bad on kindred. I'm not 100% what's meta after the recent changes, but stormraiders or fervor kindred is way better. Otherwise your builds seem fine just the random deaths dance is very questionable, and while phantom dancer could work situationally, the one game you built it wasn't even against any duelist champions.

ShinjusukeMar 19, 20171 votes

Mobi boots are because it's literally the only way to ever get to a stack before the enemy does in 90% of the games I play.

If I were playing with teams that gave a shit about marks, I would absolutely not buy them because, you're right, they're bad.

But I literally never have a team that's willing to help with marks because, like with any other objective, the average player is either too selfish or stupid to care about things other than their CS or their K/D. Usually, their nearest laners leave their lane to drop a mark immediately, while mine just sit there afk farming while I ping that I'm heading to the mark and that their mia laner is heading their also. The average league player is just plain too stupid me to expect the backup I need.

I haven't been taking Flash because Flash on Kindred is about as superfluous as Flash on Shaco. Almost every time, if your Q or ult can't get you out of situation, you're probably just plain screwed. That said, I'll give it another shot, but the advantage in earlygame duels from exhaust or ignite is basically the only thing that lets Kindred go toe-to-toe with.. well.. anything but a tank... when you're going for a mark earlygame. Not to mention either one either secures a gank or scares them into burning flash, which has a longer CD than Exhaust or Ignite

I'll try Stormraiders cuz I haven't tried that one on them yet. Pretty much all the keystones friggin' suck on her now, because she has garbage AD scaling (so Fervor isn't super useful), new Bloodlust is basically terrible on every champion except a handful of ADCs, and Thunderlords is bad on Kindred for the same reason Fervor is (AD scaling is crap).

Death's dance was just something I was trying because of its passives being a decent synergy with Kindred in theory, and PD was something I was trying because it used to be really good back when Fervor was an onhit and I was curious if it was still decent.

Thank you very much for the input, it's appreciated.

SirLapseMar 19, 20171 votes

You're taking Flash/Ghost because it not only assists in killing laners, but secures safety for yourself. Having a defensive summoner gives you more resilience and actually opens you up to more offensive options if you know how to use said tools.

item 2032 Garbage. Never buy this even if you intend to farm, because after Bloodrazor your camp clears cost 0 mana to do. item 3153 is better than item 3085 if you need early presence and/or dueling, and most cases after you get BoRK you will be getting Runaan's. item 3022 and item 3026 have equivalent reasons to buy them; you need defensive stats to fight the enemy and want to secure a more consistent advantage than just building outright more offensively. item 3071 extremely situational. The CDR is why you want to buy, the penetration is just the icing on top. CDR on Kindred is for her ultimate primarily and usually if you've secured a good advantage but the enemy has a tank of some sort. Otherwise BoRK/Runaan's always wins.

item 3117 if you're using this to get to marks, then you're not thinking properly. You can get marks from opportunistic ganks, abusing the fact that the enemy is most likely going to ditch their camp clears to go hunt your mark, revealing them while not revealing you. Kindred is a ganker, not a farmer. Use that strength. Obviously shouldn't be giving up free marks but I'm not sure what your level of map awareness is (Kindred relies on it a lot). I don't personally agree with Berserker Greaves because defensive boots tend to be better after Bloodrazor.

Lethality marks + Thunderlord's for stronger early ganks (needs Flash), Stormraider's Surge WITH GHOST (no exceptions unless you want to make yourself weaker) and full attack speed marks/glyphs/quints for higher kiting/chasing power (really only for experienced jungle gankers), and Fervor for scaling into mid/late game. There is literally no reason to take Warlord unless you've mastered orb walking and want to use it in the mid-game specifically while never building BoRK. Pick your preference.