Some serious concerns about the Cass rework and how her Miasma works.

Canastus··59 votes·9,236 views

http://imgur.com/p3cfLs7


EDIT: RiotRepertoir just confirmed that the cast range on her W is fixed, this is an outright nerf to her overall utility. It also doesn't stop in-progress gap closers, so it has very little use. The slow on her already pitiful ultimate was nerfed aswell according to the PBE (60% -> 40%) which goes against what Repertoir is claiming in his thread.


It's been a very long time since Cass received any changes but you finally got around to work on her, I've got to congratulate you on that. However I don't feel you managed to hit the mark yet - and I'd like to tell you why.

Bear in mind, I'm only going by what we know so far about her kit (the ability preview on the Mid Season page) and the way it's being presented. The biggest issue I'm having is with the way her new Miasma works. Sure, at first its sheer size may seem impressive but it comes with a harsh penalty - its fixed cast range.

According to the ability preview, you're unable of casting it close or right in front of Cass which will make any attempt at combining it with your ultimate basically pointless since the affected target will be still way out of your range. And how come you didn't buff her ult yet? Instead you NERFED her R - it's nothing else but a pitiful slow (40%, it used to be 60%) on a huge cooldown (120sec) at this point.

Her new Miasma will be still ineffective at stopping ganks or any other attack from the brink of your eye since your enemies will be BELOW the cast-range of your W once that happens. In the end you're even less mobile than before since you won't be able to stop anyone who's about to get into your face. This new Miasma doesn't seem to work with her kit very well since it only prevents targets from fleeing at best (and what's stopping them from simply flashing or jumping OVER it?) as long as you can't influence its range at all. It has far too many handicaps and too little utility when it comes to her own survival.

Another aspect that still leaves me wondering has to be her manacosts which I wasn't able to deduce from the preview but apparently her E is a lot cheaper now compared to her Q, yet the poison-damage is still rather low compared to the output you receive from spamming your E. How exactly is this a change from her current E-focused gameplay? Her poisons are still too weak to justify maxing Q first, especially if you're depending on your E to properly lasthit.

In the end you weren't able to address her most glaring issues, those being her sloppy and unreliable ultimate along with her lack of mobility and escape tools. You may have given her a slow with an impressive type of cc but it's still far too limited gameplaywise and doesn't synergize too well with the rest of her kit. It's far too offensive in its use and offers too little defense for herself. You seriously need to consider changing its size in favor of a more flexible cast range. You also need to address the power on her Q if you really care about her poison-mage identity.

I really hope you listen to some of this feedback, I'd hate to see this rework end up as a disappointment like the one before.

121 Comments

HowPlayGAEM28 votes

[deleted]

MrBuffington6 votes

I mean, Aurelion Sol sort of has a fixed distance with his passive and W (two different distances, but fixed at each location).

The fixed range seems to fit neatly with her ult AoE, so if players dash towards Cass over her W, she can always react with her ult for a good stun, since they'll be facing her. It doesn't really stop enemies from running away, but that wasn't a strength she ever had, so I don't think it's that big a deal.

I think we have to see it in action more to really get a feel for it. On one hand, I think it should stop on enemy champions hit (it already stops on terrain), so she has a defensive option, not to mention the synergy with her ult is sort of niche. On the other hand, I think having it thrown over champions can let her trap enemies, and does have better ult synergy.

kDrakari4 votes

From using it on PBE her other abilities all have very similar range to each other, while Miasma's area is just beyond that so there's no overlap. The problem with that is, Miasma doesn't really do anything to keep enemies in that range, or protect her from things already within that area. Champions can still use mobility to go through the area, and the slow isn't strong enough to keep them from just walking through without problems and the debuff doesn't last long enough that it would hinder them once they leave.

Leu0716 votes

Yeah, if her W is fixed Ranged Then I suppose it is kind of shitty, it would be nice if they could allow her to cast it in shorter ranges and nearer you cast it, the less wide it is but it gets rounder (like current one), also, I am kind of worried about her dps now, is it going to be overall less damage coming from her? Cass has always been about raw damage.

Canastus7 votes

I've got some bad news, buddy. They also nerfed the slow on her ultimate for no reason at all. This is starting to look grimmer and grimmer.

Leu074 votes

Let us wait till we get to see some gameplays, maybe they will have to adjust some numbers, but as it seems, she might be pushed down to bottom lane as support imo :/ which is kind of crappy since I do not really enjoy that much playing support and I love cass. She still has pretty good TF potential with the W and her ult though, but I have always liked her because of her duel potential, also, goodbye dreams of countering zed with her, if her W is fixed ranged, you can not W when he ults you where he appears, wich means he can still wreck you undertower.

Mogarl1 votes

Well actually since it stops at terrain you CAN put it on yourself if you are under tower by using it towards the tower. This applies when she is basically anywhere accept in the middle of the lane.

Leu072 votes

I think that was all made just to not let the miasma go through walls, i dont know why, you could put it against terrains anyways if you it wasnt fixed range, like, why fic ranged? also, I think the poison should last a few more seconds on the enemies. Like 3 seconds if you got touched by it, like, literally you can just walk a bit out of it and you are K... does not feel impactful really. Sooo very situational.

InHaruhiWeTrust14 votes

all of the reworks were pretty disappointing IMO. i don't think they did nearly enough of what they said they would except vlad, and cass kinda. Malzahar only got a new passive everything else was just copy paste of his old abilities. his ult was especially disappointing, they said they would change it to give the enemy something to play around, but all they did was copy paste his old W under it... Brand legit looks like cancer. still "brand" new, but his passive looks absolutely broken. correct me if i'm wrong, but they don't use items in these demos and the absolute ridiculous dmg he did with only 3 spell and his passive proc scares the shit out of me. the idea of the blaze sound interesting but from what i've seen so far i don't like. they didn't do anything to his E like they said they would. ult is less random kinda unless everyone is blazed lol Zyra just got iloi passive except less useful from what it looks like since you have to use an ability on your random spawing seeds(everyone loves RNG). Q is literally the same thing except in a line(was super excited at first from the image since i thought i was a vine that remained on the ground) everything else is the same including her ult which i think had a TON of possibility. Velkoz got pretty much no changes (which is great) except his "researched" thing on his ult that i still don't understand. we will have to wait for more info on the "minor" changes, but from what i can tell annie still doesn't throw tibbers so -1 points from me.

edit: i have since figured out how the vel'koz change works, i really don't know how to feel about it... vel'koz was already perfect and possible the most balanced champions in the game. if this cause him to become pick or ban and he takes a ride on the rito balance rollercoaster i will never forgive....

Captain Aishi3 votes

I feel like brand malz and vlad's updates risk becoming balance nightmares more than anything else AP scaling on velkoz passive makes him better at midlane than support to reward buying more AP the rest is still too early to even speculate though

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

but then they refunded mana on Q hits, so now support Velkoz ( who already had very few mana problems ) will fire Q at you until you literally want to roll over and die.

Captain Aishi4 votes

i read that his Q refuns mana on unit kills, not on hits, so that's once again more aimed at midlane than support

Maximum Morde7 votes

{quoted} from what i can tell annie still doesn't throw tibbers so -1 points from me.

Yasuo player salty that he can't block everything detected.

InHaruhiWeTrust4 votes

OH dear. you got me. i play yasuo like ALLL the time.....

CarbRundum2 votes

Velkoz got pretty much no changes (which is great) except his "researched" thing on his ult that i still don't understand.

True damage on his ult, which had both its base damage and scalings buffed to compensate for it not applying passive anymore. But still True damage.

Elewd3 votes

as a Zyra main, they did everything to zyra that us mains have been asking for, a new passive and more play around our plants while keeping her sustained damage and burst potential there. they were never going to change her E and ultimate, they flat out said they wern't going away. When some of the 1trick ponies in diamond+ got asked about her W being a new skill or staying a forced seed all of them wanted the forced seed to stay, so much strategy given from placing that seed. Her Q is now nolonger a circle skillshot and is a huge aoe that spawns a ton of plants outside of its hitbox as well. Shes going to be insane in any lane now.

InHaruhiWeTrust1 votes

new passive yes(anything would be better than old passive). her plants are the exact same she just gets more... some times... if RNG likes you that game/instance. i never said they were gonna change her E or ult(i think her E is a great ability), i just said they should have changed her ult IMO.

Elewd2 votes

the rng isn't as "RNG" as it seems, they tend to always spawn at a range just for her Q to hit and they tend to grow around the same spot for multiple hits per Q. Its about as RNG as illaois tentacles which have static locations on the map. Her ulti was never going to change, its one of the most gratifying skills to get off correctly. im just kinda bumd that all the gameplay i've seen from streams, shes gonna get nerfed super hard because her damage output in lane and in teamfights is higher than a fed vayne.

Auryiel2 votes

For Vel'Koz, basically if you trigger your passive on a target, for the next 7 seconds, your ult deals true damage to them but (I think) doesn't apply your passive

Karma Deified3 votes

they would change it to give the enemy something to play around, but all they did was copy paste his old W under it...

You see cause a circle is round and you don't want to be on it, so you have something to play around.

TheUltimateSpear9 votes

Some info after playing a bit with Cassi on the PBE- doing this from memory so bare with me.

Cassiopeia can't buy boots. Cassiopeia has 328 movespeed, gaining +4 movespeed per level. (So, technically, 332 base movement speed.)

Her Q base damage was increased to 75/120/165/210/255 + 70% AP. But that damage is now divided into 7 ticks rather than 3. Idk why, it's not necessary. Just make it 3 tics or 4 if you want it to synergize with the cooldown and this ability will be good. The mana cost was increased from 40-80 to 60-80, and the ability pops a lot quicker, like maybe 2/3's the time of old Cassi Q. Idk why Riot did either of those last two changes.

Cassiopeia's new W is extremely weird. It behaves much more like like Morgana's puddle than other poison spells. The ability comes out fast, and reaches pretty far beyond Cassiopeia, and covers a lot of ground. But, it only lasts for 4 seconds, and as soon as the ability disappears, the damage stops- it doesn't linger for a little bit like on live. It also has a 70 mana cost at all ranks and a 20 second cooldown at all ranks, and has a really weird collision with terrain, bunching up the spell in one area.

Cassiopeia's E got tweaked heavily. It no longer resets on kill but has a base cooldown of .9 seconds, (Presumably, I took the CDR mastery and got .95 seconds) It refunds mana if you kill a unit with it, but no longer adds additional mana so you can't slowly recooperate your mana anymore. The base damage of Cassiopeia's new is very low and scales with level, and only has a .10% AP Ratio. You'll be doing around ~25 damage more than your attacks throughout the game. If the target is poisoned, the ability gains like 130-140 base damage at max rank and the ap ratio of 35%, for a total of 45% AP Ratio hitting poisoned targets. The base damage is like a little more than 200 hitting poisoned targets. And the spell also heals Cassiopeia for around ~25 + 10% AP damage if she's hitting a target who's poisoned.

The changes to Cassi's E was weird. The mana sustain and healing are pretty good to have from the get go, but the cooldown increase... you'll really notice your spam rate of the spell go down... Maybe if you get a lot of CDR it won't be so bad, but Cassiopeia doesn't have a lot of room in her build for a Morellos, nor will she probably get Abyssal's or Zhonyas or any items given CDR that didn't have it before until later on in the game. Cassiopeia's dueling potential has taken a hit for sure.

Cassiopeia's R is identical to live: 150/250/350 + 50% AP, with the nerf to the slow if targets are facing away. 40% down from 60%

Specific Notes Cassiopeia's play style feels a lot different now. Feels like you want to hit your Q, hit an E, footsie, hit an E, footsie, rather than just Q-EEEEEE. You'll want to be kiting around a lot more; this Cassiopeia feels a lot like Ahri in some ways with their huge emphasis on kiting.

Cassiopeia's kill combo potential was hit hard. Even with the original and 1st reworked Cassiopeia, you could stun someone with ult, and burst them down from full health by the time the ult wore off. I don't think that's the case with this new Cassiopeia; if you hit the stun, your W will fly far behind your target, leaving you only your Q and E. And E's no longer very spammable and the Q ticks way to many times. You'll probably get your target to half health.

On the whole, it seems this Cassiopeia has a huge emphasis on harass rather than all-inning. Use increased speed to hit a Q, maybe 2 E's, back off. Throw a W if someone tries to get too close. When their low, try to bait an engage, stun with ult, and then finish them off.

Well, that's it. Everyone can form their own conclusion from this data!

Cassiopeia

SexySoapTurtle8 votes

People will never be satisfied...

YCitizenSnipsY4 votes

Cass mains wont. Anytime the champion gets a change its complained about even before it hits live. The main complaints I see from Cass mains is that she has weaknesses and her strengths aren't strong enough.

10110011100014 votes

Live: She's a garbage mini-game end-game champion that doesn't do jack shit unless she gets the easiest lane imaginable.

PBE: She's not a shitty mini-game end-game champion, she just has no kit synergy with one of her abilities anymore.

YCitizenSnipsY3 votes

Yeah Yeah, Go ahead and tell me what a balanced and healthy Kit Cass should have. All I ever hear about Cass from her mains is that she isn't strong enough and that her weakness can be exploited.

This shit hasn't even hit live, its been on the PBE for less than a day, but here comes the Cass mains to tell everyone how terrible it is because it doesn't make her broken.

1011001110009 votes

The Live kit is bad because it never did what it intended to do, shit on Cass mains who played the poison zone mage style, and then they gave her an end-game "passive" that functionally prevented her from being capable of solid damage for a random amount of time that kept getting changed.

The rework was an obnoxious ball-of-stats "Your E is your auto" machine gun that got curbstomped by the balance team and never escaped the garbage pile until now, where they throw away the garbage machinegun playstyle and go back to poison zone, but then alter one of her zoning tools so that it has a fixed distance. She loses outplay potential for a gimmick that they don't even seem to want to implement effectively.

A Liberal1 votes

Her new kit reminds me a lot of Urgot with his ultimate.

Super cool ability... but... how do you use it?

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Her new kit reminds me a lot of Urgot with his ultimate.

Super cool ability... but... how do you use it?

Well, NOW you switch spots with someone that's in the center of the enemy team.

Now you fear everyone that's too close, ruining the enemy formation and you all can get a free round of burst on them WHILE one person is in the middle of your whole team.

Before...you just didn't play Urgot so I mean...

Serika Zero1 votes

I'm a Malzahar main. I like the Malzahar rework, I think its cool. I just hope riot won't fuck up the numbers, being to high with Malza perma banned.

There goes your theory of champion mains never happy with reworks.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Didn't name Malzahar did I? Cass mains complain after every change to her. This thread was up right after the PBE files on the rework became available. Less than 24 hours and with no experience what so ever, here comes the Cass mains to tell everyone while this one was a failure as well.

NostolgicSkies3 votes

{quoted}

Didn't name Malzahar did I? Cass mains complain after every change to her. This thread was up right after the PBE files on the rework became available. Less than 24 hours and with no experience what so ever, here comes the Cass mains to tell everyone while this one was a failure as well.

You forgot those Cass mains have been right everytime riot touches Cassie and they say it won't work. That's y we r on Cassie third? Rework

exe36 votes

I'm very much on the fence about these changes. They're not the absolute disaster that the previous rework blatantly was the moment it was revealed but there are some points that could backfire (no more fail case for not managing poisoned E's anymore for example, could get boring just spamming E without any thought process behind it).

For Miasma i'm concerned about the fixed range. At the very least I think the fixed range is a bit too far, so much so that I can't see it being usable defensively unless you see a gank coming a mile away. Otherwise it looks like it'd be only really usable offensively in preventing enemies from escaping. I think it'd be better if you could choose its range (still keep a minimum if needed for balance reasons) but the closer you cast it to yourself the smaller the arc is.

All speculation but i'm just not sold on W being a usable spell.

Canastus8 votes

Her W is definitely the worst offender and needs to be changed, the fixed range is a massive deal-breaker and cannot be allowed to go through since it heavily restricts the use of the ability, especially within the jungle since it's unable of being cast beyond walls. Good luck catching ANYONE outside of your lane like that.

ltmetal6 votes

My hope? This post receives Malicious Metal levels of attention for being well thought out and heartfelt.

My prediction? This is the third update to Cassiopeia that will fail to hit the mark (as well as the third update to be considered a failure since the instigation of these low scope VGUs), further cementing that she has problems that just can't be solved until she gets the Sion level rework she deserves. However, she will be left to flounder for years just like Mordekaiser and Skarner because they will all be considered lower priority than updating champions like Warwick and Ryze.

Occams Raiser3 votes

I think they know what her problem is. She has always had a kit that can't be balanced. As we are seeing here.

Grand Eleven5 votes

My honest opinion: Cassi just became a very aggressive support.

Sitting behind your ADC the new Miasma is a fantastic tool to either stop engages or keep them from escaping to secure a kill. Damage now requires kiting which kills burst .... not bad but again ... makes her more of harassing support. Her ult? Same story. Cast it form safely behind your tank/front line.

Oh and you dont need boots anymore so that money can dip easily into your wards.

I could be very wrong ... but that's what I see at first glance and no play testing.

SH Azykan4 votes

cant buy boots, and the movespeed being tied to her level is going to make her very xp dependent though. being underleveled like most supports will make it insanely difficult for cassio players to get into their kiting groove that they want and will make engaging on her super easy past lane phase (she cant walk away)

Grand Eleven1 votes

Why is movement speed a massive priority for support? I mean seriously ... what support buys boots on their first back?

Axis the Dragon5 votes

A lot of them, actually. Bard is notorious for early Swifties. After Sightstone, usually, but boots aren't too far behind.

Having boots helps a ton for roaming, allowing the Support to make plays around the map.

Movespeed is actually pretty important lmao.

Rico Nasty4 votes

Just overhaul her, really. Her playstyle just is not healthy no matter how you try to look at it.

Serpents Embrace4 votes

wow it beeing fixed range is terrible....

lolipopevelynn3 votes

you fools kept asking for another cass rework when her current state is perfectly fine, and now we are getting a WORSE version of cass.

you guys just cant leave well enough alone.

put into perspective, item 3009 gives a total of 85 move speed with a passive that reduces movement slowing effects by 25%, can be rushed before lvl 6 if need be. her new passive gives a total of 72 move speed at lvl 18, no other additional effects, no penetration, now -% slow reduction, nothing. just let that sink in and remind yourselves that you asked for this.

The Queen Viper16 votes

{quoted}

you fools kept asking for another cass rework when her current state is perfectly fine, and now we are getting a WORSE version of cass.

She wasn't fine... her "mini-game" passive was horrible and dragging her down.

She will be a bit harder to play now with these changes, however overall she will be better off when her power is not gated by that stupid passive.

{quoted}

put into perspective, item 3009 gives a total of 85 move speed with a passive that reduces movement slowing effects by 25%, can be rushed before lvl 6 if need be. her new passive gives a total of 72 move speed at lvl 18, no other additional effects, no penetration, now -% slow reduction, nothing. just let that sink in and remind yourselves that you asked for this.

Actually swiftness gives a flat 60, which you will surpass after lvl 15. Also someone who cares more can do some math how much earlier you can surpass swiftness if you get an early Aether Wisp.

Sure, the things we are gonna miss out are the MPen and Tenacity... however trading those to another item slot is just fine.

Time to bust out Stormraider's Surge bro.

lolipopevelynn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake on bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9dFw0OPz,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-04-19T22:57:42.823+0000)

She wasn't fine... her "mini-game" passive was horrible and dragging her down.

She will be a bit harder to play now with these changes, however overall she will be better off when her power is not gated by that stupid passive.

Actually swiftness gives a flat 60, which you will surpass after lvl 15. Also someone who cares more can do some math how much earlier you can surpass swiftness if you get an early Aether Wisp.

Sure, the things we are gonna miss out are the MPen and Tenacity... however trading those to another item slot is just fine.

Time to bust out Stormraider's Surge bro.

doesnt matter, they are throwing away her old AP scaling passive for move speed. its not a good trade in the slightest.

Oleandervine18 votes

{quoted}

doesnt matter, they are throwing away her old AP scaling passive for move speed. its not a good trade in the slightest.

Yeah, it is. That Aspect passive was absolutely atrocious in terms of gameplay, and only the most die hard numerophiles loved stacking it. For people who played Cass prior to that dreadful Shurima rework, having all of her power stuck behind 30 minutes of gameplay was abysmal.

Linna Excel7 votes

Her current passive doesn't really matter because good players just blew her up, it took forever to stack, and games were ending before you could fully stack it.

Grand Eleven3 votes

its the best part of her rework: a fantastic change to a passive that never should have went live.

Linna Excel9 votes

Downvoting because you called people fools.

Yes this rework was asked for, but she hasn't been in a great state since her last one. I think Cass needs a major rework at this point, and probably needs to be split into 2-3 champs (different forms of poison mages).

chipndip11 votes

Why would she use W for close-up encounters when she has Q? Q is her escape option since it gives movement speed when she hits enemies.

Occams Raiser4 votes

people dash out of the way of your q. It throws you off and now you are dead. They aren't poisoned and your damage out put drops. When she could drop Miasma on you it was scary cause you knew you would get poisoned. It would slow you in a big ass cloud then she would Q you and continue damage. THEY JUST NERFED HER.

More from Gameplay

More by Canastus