An entire season has passed and the Cass rework still hasn't met its goals.

Canastus··97 votes·6,760 views

The original purpose of the rework was to create an overall more accessible and attractive pick for players, however it didn't fullfill any of those goals. Instead it removed any build- or gameplay diversity the champion once had and reduced her identity to the one of a squishy, immobile, short ranged ap marks(wo)man with crippling manacosts.

Meanwhile her identity as a poison mage was deleted ENTIRELY thus killing off the Cassiopeia we once knew and loved. Yes, the one champion who was capable of kiting and melting entire teams with well placed miasmas and noxious blasts alone. Nowadays her poison can't even kill minions anymore, she has become a shadow of her former self.

Since then she has become a lot worse: prerework Cassio dealt 50-60k (!) per game with her aoe-poison damage alone while staying relevant throughout the game thanks to her great ratios and flat numbers. Only a small part of her damage came from spamming Twin Fangs since it was an extremely risky ability to use in the first place, only meant to execute those who were greatly weakened.

Now she has to wait 35-40 minutes before she even gets to deal a fraction of the damage she used to do. And even then it's extremely unsafe for her since it requires her to go very deep into the dangerzone. And it gets a lot worse during teamfights, trust me.

Nowadays she's supposed to play like an adc, and yet she lacks the support to peel for her once things get hot. She simply can't survive on her own, it's just not possible. The fact that you expect her to get close enough just to get jumped upon reduces her window of opportunities by an extremely large margin, this isn't the kit of a kiter anymore. It's a deathwish.

Literally ALL of her numbers were nerfed - Cassiopeia's ratios and flat magic damage were drastically reduced while essentially DOUBLING the manacosts after she lost her old passive which originally was the greatest passive you could have asked for as a spammy mage. You still expect her to keep up with the Twin Fang spam, it's just too bad she doesn't have the mana to do it anymore.

Even with a Tear she still struggles at keeping up with lane activity or at taking down raidmonsters. Reducing the total number of Twin Fangs she can cast before going oom is by far the biggest nerf to her overall damage potential. How could you have overlooked such a massive flaw?

Her entire play pattern is the epitome of high risk and low reward since anyone can shut her down instantly if you have access to cc and/or burst. Especially during lategame, where she's supposed to shine, she blows up as fast as her targets. The little bit of sustain you've given her really makes no difference at that point. Heck, just look at the attached imagefile if you want to know how insignficant it is.

Why do you force us to spend the majority of the game as an obsolete champion who struggles to even keep up with every other midlaner just to become irrelevant again once lategame rolls in? There isn't a single matchup anymore that she could even reliably win, it's just nonstop farming and sitting at your tower. Considering her massive handicaps, she never gets into a position that would enable her to 1v5 - it's downright unthinkable.

The most blatant issue however has to be this new role you had in mind for her. She's supposed to be THE ap-hypercarry in the game and yet her performance falls drastically short of achieving that. The numbers virtually speak for themselves. If she can't properly do her job, she's has to be declared unviable - it's that simple. It's beyond me why you haven't attempted any further changes on her so far.

Several other champions leave her in the dust when it comes to dealing tons of damage. Kog'maw, Karthus and even Teemo (!) deal 10k damage more than her on an average basis. Seriously, there are over 40 other champions in this game who deal more than Cass. Her overall damage doesn't even come close to what assassins put out in the course of a single game, it's simply disappointing.

At least back then I was able to feel good about the damage I dealt to my enemies whenever I looked at the endgame-chart, now it's just one disappointment after another once I see the results. I've yet to play a single game with this reworked Cassiopeia where I actually deal the most damage in the game. It simply doesn't happen anymore and it makes me feel extremely weak.

Before the rework she used to be at a stable 3% pick- and 50% winrate. Now she's down to a mere 2% pickrate while sporting a 46% winrate on average basis. She has become a worse champion in every single regard, and yet you refuse to keep working on her. Even the guy who originally was in charge of her rework left this sinking ship over half a year ago, since then no one even felt obliged to take care of her. That needs to change, Riot.

I think it's about time you finally give us back the identity she once had, as a poison mage befitting the seductress she was born to be.

103 Comments

Crett33 votes

item 3003 item 3157 item 3027 item 3116 These items ensure she's decently durable. Issue is, she has the same problems Veigar has; I'm pretty sure her power level isn't the problem. It's a problem of gameplay fantasy No one played Cassiopeia to be a Twin-Fang machine gun She's supposed to be the premier DoT mage

Canastus20 votes

That's exactly the issue I'm having with her, it's this absolutely dependency on spamming Twin Fangs - an ability that never was meant to be her sole source of damage. It simply doesn't work for a squishy, immobile solo-laner.

Since there are only very few occasions where she can safely use it, her overall damage output suffers massively as seen on the charts. Now slap some overbearing manacosts to the mix and your suffering is complete.

Crett8 votes

Totally agree with you. This is a thematic issue that kinda ruins her imo

Rain NT2 votes

I like machine gun cassio lol feels like the old Ryze spamming Q constantly haha. I prefer the machine gun as well cause then you need more mechanics to play her. Since you have to have good positioning to constantly spam E and now just hit one Q and W to do a lot of damage. Now its more hit Q for movement speed, W for slow, R for aoe damage/stun and QW to spam E which is your main source of damage. We don't have a lot of ADC like mages so I dont think Riot will rework her lol (not to mention they prefer harder mechanically champions)

BIAKaboose6 votes

More mechanics to have all of your damage rely on mashing one key as fast as possible with positioning that doesn't get you auto killed? While before she has to control the entire area around her very well and maintain in constant motion because she didn't have the ability to build really tanky and spam E until the entire enemy team died?

That's like saying you need amazing mechanics to play Yi or Caitlyn. Or like saying you need crazy good mechanics to play as Ryze with his new permanent root and his ability to cast ult WHILE STILL ULTING on occasion. I don't understand how mashing a single key is fun. It's boring as hell and trashes your keyboard to boot, that's why I don't play Urgot much, my Q key can't handle that abuse. Also ADC-like mages, let that term sink in for a second, you want someone who is one type of character, to almost completely mimic another type of character... Why would you not just go play the other character type? If you look at almost any fantasy setting magic users don't just stand around in a fight lobbing all their power as quickly as possible, that's just mindless, they use magic because they are smart, try using a fireball in D&D in a massive fight, you will kill everyone on your side as well as theirs if you just throw it out at random.

If Riot prefers champions that are mechanically harder then why would they remove the extra thought required by Cass in favor of land one of 2 abilities and then spam the hell out of a different one mindlessly because that's the only way you deal damage. Hell that's like saying that all you have to do as Nasus is press W and if it hits mash Q as hard as you can until they die. I really don't see any of your logic here, I want to, I really want to, but I can't.

Rain NT2 votes

No lol I'm saying shes more like vayne or lucian as in if she doesnt position herself correctly to land E (Vayne/Lucian AA) she will just die instantly.

Which what Riot generally prefer since we already have so much control (area) mages like Viktor Anivia Azir etc, and not enough DPS ADC like mages. Its like hey, why do we have Ezreal Corki Varus that are caster like ADC? Same thing.. Riot wants it all, for example they even turned Morde into an adc.

And no perma root Ryze isnt fun cause its a CC, Machine Gun ryze was what I was comparing her to before they reworked Ryze. Constant damage but has to position to land them.

BIAKaboose4 votes

Azir deals a ton of damage by positioning his soldiers to auto attack from a distance, he has one form of true area denial and is more a burst mage than a control mage, his ult is just an AoE Lee Sin kick that keeps them from coming back. You also seem to think that every mage in the game doesn't need good positioning to not die. They aren't tanks, they are mages, they deal high damage and die quickly, it's just what they do.

Riot emphasizes so heavily on mobility and CC that people like Cass simply get outshone by well, almost everyone. and if you'll notice something about the ADCs listed they have been kept rather unpopular for a reason, caster carries bully too much, look at Urgot, they shoved him into complete unviability because he was good at doing the only thing he was able to do, harass. Also Morde is not an ADC, he just goes bot lane, if you're building AD beyond a Triforce and maybe Sterak's I'm questioning you heavily. He's still a mage, they just pigeonholed him bot lane because he wasn't popular because then people would actually notice him beyond his dedicated mains.

Also Ryze is still a machinegun it just isn't point click they take damage. You didn't have to position to hit them in lane or even in fights, if they were in range they just got hit, nothing to do about it. He has to position now because you know, skillshots and your build doesn't put you at 3K HP with 200 armor and 150 MR anymore.

Duthar2 votes

As I recall, CertainlyT's argument for reworking her to focus on spamming Twin-Fang rather than DoT was that DoT damage was "Brand's image, and she was stepping on his toes." That was a while ago. Say what you will about that man, with every other blunder he might have made, and every brilliant design he created, but for what he did to what used to be my favorite champion, I've hated him.

I loved punishing enemies for not paying attention to where they were going. Step into the purple fog? Now you're an easy target for another DoT spell, and some extra damage from a spammable ability that rewarded smart poison use. Now she's a magical Marksman like Azir, only far worse in every way, and a sub par champion all around.

Angry Monster2 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but CertainlyT wasn't in charge of the Cass rework, the guy who did the Fiora rework (Stashu) however was.

CertainlyT might of been defending the work, but that does not mean he did it.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Zmjpvet,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-11T09:53:45.456+0000)

CertainlyT might of been defending the work, but that does not mean he did it.

He didn't even defend it. The quote he's mentioning was Stashu - I doubt CT has ever discussed Cass.

Tomatosx8 votes

RIot stashu reworked her

LeeDark7 votes

He didn't do that to your favorite champion. Are we really scapegoating CT for champion designs he wasn't even responsible for now?

Poske2 votes

{quoted}

item 3003 item 3157 item 3027 item 3116 These items ensure she's decently durable. Issue is, she has the same problems Veigar has; I'm pretty sure her power level isn't the problem. It's a problem of gameplay fantasy No one played Cassiopeia to be a Twin-Fang machine gun She's supposed to be the premier DoT mage

Her q is poision Her w is poison Her passive is poison based

Her poisons deal more dmg if you hit them with twin fang first

This is why I would never care what you say if I were STASHU if she were any more poison baised she would poison herself

Crett6 votes

^ look to your enemy, cass mains

EDIT: actual response all her power has been shifted from her poisons to twin fang. she may have them, but really their only purpose besides minor poke and zone control is to mark enemies for twin fang. it feels pretty lame and i don't enjoy that playstyle much

AtheosisX16 votes

I don't play Cass, but from facing her in lane and watching her play pattern I have to say she looks like a jank champion to me. Not weak per se. She can put out crazy damage. Yet, at the same time, she is just so spammy with one ability while her other two non-ult abilities seem to have virtually no impact at all. That just screams poor champion design to me.

1000angrybees9 votes

if you count up front single target burst damage I'd even put Sona ahead of her.

Xonra7 votes

{quoted}

if you count up front single target burst damage I'd even put Sona ahead of her.

You'd be surprised just how correct you are.

Canastus4 votes

Sona's ultimate literally has the same ratio and damage as Cassio's, except it stuns her targets no matter which direction they're looking at while having a far better hitbox.

Baseball3b9 votes

What really gets me is the fact that all pre-rework Cass needed were a few QoL changes and number tweaks and she was fine. Not this mess of a rework.

MasterVidallis1 votes

That's the exact same thing I would say about Mordekaiser mid which I used to love to play.

LeeDark3 votes

There are plenty of threads to whine about that. Please use one of them.

MasterVidallis2 votes

Or, I'll do whatever the fuck I want.

LeeDark1 votes

Obviously. Much like the whiny, petulant little child you are.

ShadowParker2 votes

Wow, that was so uncalled for.

LeeDark1 votes

And your response was just so very necessary. Goodbye.

ShadowParker2 votes

I happened to think it was. Defending a fellow person from getting degraded is bad though. Right?

Daedalus8717 votes

You forgot to mention that Veigar scales better with her AP than she does.

Mixter Yi6 votes

tbh I'm not sure why they made morde a bot laner rather than cass

Borbland6 votes

Yeah, I was a big Cass player until they turned her into "E key test simulator 2015 edition"

Now she's dull, uninteressting, and it either completly broken or unseen. The typical symptomes of an unbalanced and unhealthy champion.

They need to shift power from E back to the poisons, A and W and nearly the same right now, just applying poison to get your E off.

Pale Pirate4 votes

Riot has the tendency to completely abandon a project if they fail in it, and a great example is Cassiopeia. What on earth were they thinking when they turned her into a machine gun?!

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

What's really sad is that if a Cass puts down a miasma, you can just stand in it and your health regen will outpace the damage. :/

TheUltimateSpear3 votes

The rework's just a failure on all counts. There's no other way to put it. Cassiopeia's gameplay was made even more toxic to play against. 75% of her kit was trashed to make room for a super charged Twin Fang. With her current kit her balance is extremely volatile. She'll never be balanced with this broken kit. Not to mention she's boring as hell to play as. QEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Or throw a W down and then EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. And ult for the stun to enable your Q and W and then EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Right now she's weak due to her insane mana costs, and her gutted damage output. Even her E has less base damage than before and it's supposed to carry Cassiopeia's kit.

Desu or DIE3 votes

I used Cass before her rework and after. Even though i loved her DOT it was annoying to play against in lane. I enjoyed having that lane damage with my poison e combo but as everyone has said before mana costs got me down. In teamfights without my team peeling for me and loads of MS items and rylais i was basically useless. And i was only useful after hitting 500 stacks.

I enjoy the idea of the fangs boosting poison damage but i wish it was more noticeable. a 40% boost in noxious blast damage is really not noticeable at all and it gives you no real reward for switching targets.

I think they had a good idea going but they placed the right numbers in the wrong places. It would be nice if the poison damage boost on twin fang had a higher damage stack like 50% each time you hit someone. It would give damage and relevance back to her poison. And it would allow her to switch enemies more readily.

TLDR: I think twin fang's interaction with poison shouldn't be a machine gun mechanic but rather a way to increase her poison damage on multiple enemies

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

[deleted]

Canastus9 votes

Sorry but CertainlyT wasn't in charge of the Cass rework, the guy who did the Fiora rework (Stashu) however was.

If CertainlyT were the one to rework her, she'd have a viable kit at least.

ShadowParker2 votes

Lets be honest here, while Stashu did ruin cassiopeia, he did a pretty good job on the fiora rework.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Them Thresh heals though lol.

I will say, you are nothing if not dedicated, Canastus. I doubt that this thread will get any red attention since it's so close to World's but at least they'll see it and it'll be fresh on their minds for patch 5.24 or whenever.

Canastus3 votes

They claim that they're preparing for Worlds and yet at the same time they release one of the most radical changes to the meta with these Juggernaut reworks. Basically all of the affected champions achieved pick/ban-status, how messed up is that? That kind of argument can't hold its ground anymore, it's just pure hypocrisy.

Would it be too much to ask for some Cass changes? She has become entirely irrelevant for the last half of this season already. And there's still the matter of her identity that has to be looked at, no matter what they say.

ShadowParker2 votes

I still say that if the ratio on e was removed and instead scaled with how much it amped % poison damage I think she'd be balanced.

lllusive Man2 votes

yes the other pointed that out correctly she was that annoying poison mage we all loved(or hated) she was fine not the best champ ever bec of her mobility but they shiftet like the other already said just to her e. the old cass was easy matchup max e for a quick kill difficult matchup max q poison for safety now its impossible to kill someone with your poison alone. rlly if you have like 1200 ap you are doing 500-600 dmg and that over 3 sec the old did 800-900 dmg with half of the ap but she needet it bec of her non existent escape and close range fighting power you just cant go in a enemy team bec you want dat adc in the backline. but you have to with the new cassiopeia. like i said your poke power is non existend if you are under 1k ap. her w does 20 dmg +10 % of your ap per second the old cassio had the 20+15% ap per sec on the fisrt lvl they heavily gutted that too i tryed it with my brother you need like 700 ap to kill a squishy with your w and he needs to stay the whole duration in it.. the e was overbuffed then nerfed and now it cost 90 mana per cast 180 mana in the second 540 in the 3 sec where you can poison someone. her ulti is gladly unchanged but it has a rlly low dmg and can be avoidet so easy.

another thing that riot havent thought about the old cass had an 3 sec cd on her q and poisons her enemy for 3 sec this allowed you to spam rapidly. her new q has the dot duration unchanged but a 4 sec cd. i think they wanted to give the enemy counterplay but its already difficult enough to get your q frequently on the enemy..

cassiopeia was fun is fun and always be my main but changes are highly needet

Fiveofswords1 votes

look cass does a lot of damage and it cant be dodged. thats cool. she really doesn't bring anything else. her ult in the right place can potentially win a teamfight, thats cool. As far as tricks and utility are concerned she just isn't that sort of champ. shes just damage. shes reliable, safe, probably can lane pretty well against anything. But pros probably don't like her since she really brings nothing to the table outside of damage. for plans and teamfights and stuff its just cooler to have something special about the midlaner...like mobility to pick off people, or something global like karthus, or nice utility like orianna, etc. cass is ultimately going to be a bit superior at those guys at straight up killing people, but not so much so. and while she could fit in fine with any team comp probably, theres nothing special about her. never was.

Canastus2 votes

I realize that her main purpose is to deal tons of damage, it's what she used to do before the rework anyway. The issue however is that she can't do it anymore, infact her overall damage ouput was almost HALVED if compared to her pre-rework stats. The entire thing simply was a colossal nerf to her. She fails to meet her very own expectations.

Dalthine6 votes

The cycle went like this:

Cass rework was released.

Players requested changes in that the passive felt extremely bad (it was even worse to stack at release and basically demanded you neither leave nor lose lane or you were very underpowered late), mana ran out like your bar had a hole in it, and players wanted power in poison rather than Twin Fang.

Stashu reworked the passive to its current incarnation, and added mana restore to Twin Fang, along with general number buffs across the board.

Cass became op from people constantly requesting poison buffs instead of Twin Fang and Stashu applying buffs without taking focus off of Twin Fang. Pros picked her up and she became fotm for about 1/3 of a season in machine gun incarnation.

Riot realized she's too strong and nerfed her to her current state. There has been no communication of changing her from this state since, save for it being said "It's Live Balance's job now."

No fotm players stick with her anymore because she's weak, and old mains still lament the changes.

BIAKaboose3 votes

Actually Unicorns of Love picked her up in a game like, last year vs Fnatic. She was only really useful because they had a Yorick to ult her when she ate the entire enemy team's burst because she has no way to not eat it all. Even the casters were saying that without Yorick to ult her she was useless and just died instantly for nothing, she did good damage building full glass cannon, but building full glass cannon means you die at the drop of a hat. Cassiopeia without someone to either revive her, or have a Kayle to ult her, is garbage tier, and even with that safeguard you have to depend on someone else to be impactful to the game. She isn't reliable or safe, and anyone that can burst trashes her in lane, Zed, Yasuo, Kat, Riven mid that has cropping up, they all destroy her, that's why pros don't pick her up, compared to every "good" mid laner she is nothing but food. Her not having room to "outplay" is still an issue, but it's not the main issue, she is incredibly difficult to do anything with, and even if you do it right you just don't get the same results as you would with Kat or Zed because you can't reach the back line pretty much ever and tanks just use the Rammus taunt of "Tasty, tasty venom".

Dracocrash1 votes

look at magic damage dealt to champions, ahri did way less than you. For some reason she had done more physical damage, which I think were autos from trading in bot lane. either way i agree with you, just this example isn't ...well exemplary

Vekkna3 votes

That's because the magic/physical breakdown didn't account for the 9,430 TRUE DAMAGE Ahri dealt to champions.

In other words, it just makes the gap even wider in this comparison.

Narasimha1 votes

Meanwhile her identity as a poison mage was deleted ENTIRELY thus killing off the Cassiopeia we once knew and loved. Yes, the one champion who was capable of kiting and melting entire teams with well placed miasmas and noxious blasts alone. Nowadays her poison can't even kill minions anymore, she has become a shadow of her former self.

Since then she has become a lot worse: prerework Cassio dealt 50-60k (!) per game with her aoe-poison damage alone while staying relevant throughout the game thanks to her great ratios and flat numbers.

Everything else aside, this was the main point of the rework. No ones enjoys playing against AOE DoTS because theres not much you can do about it, especially not when it comes with cc attached.

Leu073 votes

I think heals and shields and even life steal is a way to counter a non direct burst. You have time to deal with the damage before it is completely done in my opinion. It has more counterplay than a 100-0 burst delete.

I GANK LANES1 votes

can someone tell me the reason cass was reworked? i don't see the problem in her old kit, unless for some reason her q had extremely high scalings or something. looked like a poison zoning aoe mage, with execute potential provided high risk.

btw, i used to paly a bit of cass after rework and i really like the tanky pen build, she needs to be close to do any real damage; this is my usual build for any of you learning cass players. item 3003 item 3151 item 3116 item 1320 item 3157

last item i'd say is situational. with this build you have a strong amount of flat pen, armor, tenacity and mr, good amonut of hp, extremely strong mana sustain along with a shield and statis. furor for extra kiting, cass is the kiting god if you know how to play her. back to the last item, i mean these all can vary honestly, archangel's staff is a msut though.

item 3135 item 3089 item 3001 item 3285 item 3152 (yes, WOTA is decent on Cass and definitely viable) item 3025

aight, im just ramblin now, but if anyone decides to try out this build i'd really like to hear how it works for you. its a weird build that i've kinda crafted over my time playin her, i do that with a lot of champs i never use the meta build, but yeah jsut shoot a response love to hear some stories. GL BRAHS

LeeSin is love LeeSin is life

The Queen Viper2 votes

item 3285 , item 3152 , item 3025 ... these items are really not that viable on Cass, unfortunately.

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