we need to nerf armor pen

The Deckowner·Aug 16, 2016·53 votes·3,006 views

make flat armor pen calculate before %pen, that way full ad teams can't shred 300 armor tanks like paper.

72 Comments

MunchCrunchLunchAug 16, 20165 votes

that doesnt do anything. as long as we have this 45% bonus armor penetration (52% with the masteries). . tanks are going to be shredded in no time. especially with lord dominiks damage amp bullshit and frevor and the % total armor pen masteries.

either bring back the old last whisper that takes way 30% total armor. currently the new lw finished item is better against tanks that get around 310 or so armor. and it didn't have the damage amp bullshit. that damage amp immediately nullifies any armor you get after 60% physical damage reduction.

buff items that reduce auto attack damage. buff the crit reduction on randuins to 25%. or make the damage reduction. SCALE WITH ARMOR. or just fucking buff thornmail. if tanks want to melt tanks. at least them lifesteal should be nullified. masteries and a dorans blade are enough to equalize the return damage its ridiculous. so tanks can survive few seconds and not just 2-3 . zed does no damage to tanks. the only champions that hurt tanks are every single adc. gangplank. and a cpl or so mages.

YumaS2AstralAug 16, 20164 votes

the problem is that the old last whisper affected total armor which made it incredibly good against squishies too, whereas the current LW is only good against tanks.

old LW was even a mandatory purchase on any AD champion.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 17, 20163 votes

but squishies still die in half a second or so in team fights. what gives. just bring back the old lw.

The DeckownerAug 17, 20163 votes

also built in stuff that shreds armor, like yauo ult gp barrel,, especially yasuo ult. idk why rito thought allowing yasuo to have over 70% bonus armor pen is a good idea.

DengedenAug 17, 20162 votes

Yes, bring back the old LW, I need more Zed hate threads and I love it when this community quietly eats its words.

Seriously, Dominik's isn't an issue, a tank isn't supposed to be an immovable wall. They exist to engage and disengage.

Unlucky47Sep 19, 20161 votes

zed does no damage to tanks. the only champions that hurt tanks are every single adc. gangplank. and a cpl or so mages.

Actually, I did alot of math recently revolving armor and armor pen, and 300 armor (what most tanks go for) means about 90 to a full armor pen zed. I know because i was on the receiving end of my 3200 hp and 300 armor being instantly blown up by the zed when we were at full build. I didnt think he would kill me in half a second like i was an adc, but he found a way...

Ozag the MightyAug 17, 20163 votes

Or a 700 armor malphite against an all AD team...it's like my armor meant nothing in that game.

AlistarMilkingAug 17, 20162 votes

Did you buy health in addition to the armor? If you stack tons of armor but no health, there comes a point when it gets less efficient to keep stacking resistances and you would have done better with more health.

The DeckownerAug 17, 20164 votes

i dont think you can build armor without building hp unless you buy more than one of the same item.

YumaS2AstralAug 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Z8xYBbG,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T02:04:33.706+0000)

i dont think you can build armor without building hp unless you buy more than one of the same item.

If you purchase all of item 3110 item 3025 item 3075 item 3047 you have a lot of armor but only two item slots to fill with health items.

The DeckownerAug 17, 20162 votes

yah you still have to buy some hp. item 3068 item 3143 item 3742 stuff

agbudarAug 17, 20163 votes

people really need to learn how to disengage and abuse item 3083 passive..

GrReaper96Aug 17, 20162 votes

On a completely unrelated topic......

agbudarAug 17, 20161 votes

although it looks like a niche item its actually really powerfull in the mid game and when you are sieging towers.

iDarkWindAug 17, 20163 votes

Last time my team was full AD we did nothing against the two tankers that only stacked armor on the enemy team. I seriously can't understand how in the forum I hear historys about malphites being killed in 2-3 seconds so easly by an AD champion. I really would like to know that Malphite farm, score and build, since I've never ever saw someone doing that. Just saying.

ParoeAug 17, 20162 votes

Penetration in general needs nefs, flat. It doesnt need to exist when we have crit.

the point of penetration is to augment relatively low damage builds. Crit combined with penetration COMPLETELY breaks penetration because its effectiveness is multiplied with penetration...

VerdadeAug 17, 20161 votes

Pen and crit are opposite... You either build AS/Crit build or CDR/ARP. If you do both it sucks hard. Problem lies in utility of crit items. Ghostblade, maw, Cleaver, Death's Dance in particular offer tons of utility, while IE, BT, Reaver etc. provide nothing but flat damage...

Also, power spikes are in favor of ARP builds, their power spikes early, allowing snowballing. They don't lose power in mid game, but when lategame comes they are far behind crit builds.

Crit builds tend to shine only after 2-3 big items

NuparuAug 17, 20162 votes

DD isn't a pen item; it's 10% CDR 75 AD 12% sustain and 15% damage as bleed.

Maw shouldn't have armor pen. Still don't know why it does.

GB and Cleaver are just boosts for what should be assassins (or fighters/skirmrishers for cleaver); thank Riot for removing the melee vs ranged gate on Ghostblade for it to be abused by everyone who has range.

CaptnJakSparrowAug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

DD isn't a pen item; it's 10% CDR 75 AD 12% sustain and 15% damage as bleed.

Maw shouldn't have armor pen. Still don't know why it does.

GB and Cleaver are just boosts for what should be assassins (or fighters/skirmrishers for cleaver); thank Riot for removing the melee vs ranged gate on Ghostblade for it to be abused by everyone who has range.

To deal with Zhonyas.

Pika FoxAug 17, 20162 votes

If youre dying to a full AD team in seconds with 300 AR, stop going in 5v1.

Tiny BeaverAug 16, 20161 votes

So if you have 25|30% pen, and are attacking a tank with 300 armour, you think that tank taking dmg as if they had 175 armour is that big a deal? As opposed to 192.5

The DeckownerAug 16, 201610 votes

The standard "adc " build ATM is item 3142 item 3147 item 3071 item 3156 item 3036 item 3006 which offers quite a lot more armor pen than what you listed.

Armor pen item in general still needs nerf but this is like the only way to globally nerf armor pen.

PermabannedGarenAug 17, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Z8xYBbG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-16T23:05:33.842+0000)

The standard "adc " build ATM is which offers quite a lot more armor pen than what you listed.

Armor pen item in general still needs nerf but this is like the only way to globally nerf armor pen.

There is not a single ADC in the game that builds those six items in a single match. Not even Miss Fortune.

And MF only gets away with stacking armour pen with no crit because of her ult. Her damage sucks ass against tanks when using everything else in her kit, including her auto attacks.

An ADC with all of those items does baby sustained damage compared to a crit build.

The DeckownerAug 17, 20161 votes

mf jhin graves quinn all build this shit, just swop maw with pd/ie and that is every non onhit non sivir ashe ezreal adc build.

ProfDrDeathAug 17, 20166 votes

MF does not build Maw as much. Jhin does not build Cleaver. Graves is not played ADC at all. In the jungle, he does not build Cleaver nor Lord Dominik's. Quinn ADC does not build Flat ArPen. Quinn top only goes for Youmuu's and Lord Dominik's. Quinn Jungle does not build Cleaver or Lord Dominik's.

Chromatic EagleAug 17, 20161 votes

I'm pretty sure I've seen Graves build Cleaver in jungle.

ThaurronAug 18, 20162 votes

You can build a lot of stuff on Graves tbh. Cleaver is nice since each pellet shreds separately so you can get a lot of use out of it if your team has a lot of AD and the enemy team has a lot of armor.

ProfDrDeathAug 18, 20163 votes

I agree that Cleaver can be good on him.

I was basing what I said merely on the builds from champion.gg.

http://champion.gg/champion/Graves

VolcanuzAug 18, 20161 votes

You miss so much when you go BC over other items. Like maybe if the game has gone on a while and you have a extra slot you can get it.. but otherwise there are MANY other better items for him early on to help him get the win.

SquishieAug 18, 20161 votes

Yes but Gangplank does.

ForgiveColourAug 17, 20163 votes

That build is as bad as your league skill

CyromoAug 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Z8xYBbG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-16T23:05:33.842+0000)

The standard "adc " build ATM is which offers quite a lot more armor pen than what you listed.

Armor pen item in general still needs nerf but this is like the only way to globally nerf armor pen.

That isn't the standard build... Thats like a Lucain build. Excepth most adc's won't build duskblade or black cleaver or maw.

VolcanuzAug 18, 20161 votes

One stun. Just one, and you can destroy said ADC.

Have you ever played ADC at all? Because even with those builds you rely on your team playing protect the ADC as you can be nuked in a second as the items you mentioned, none bar Maw give you any protection.

Also if you are letting an ADC get that far in his build path you deserve to lose..

The DeckownerAug 19, 20161 votes

cc can destroy any adc with any build lmao

VolcanuzAug 19, 20161 votes

No shit that is why i said use CC. Seriously how stupid are you. If you know the counter to your problem then use it.. stupid kids these days.

The DeckownerAug 19, 20161 votes

This runner cheated and started ahead but because he is American the judge letter him cheat! Your solution: use steroid and run faster

VolcanuzSep 13, 20161 votes

Wow are you mentally challenged or something? Defiantly looks it.

The build you mentioned doesn't work, you should just quit the game and play another MOBA if you think it does.

Please also find me ONE high ELO player using the build you mentioned. Just one and i will agree with you.. actually maybe not as even if they were it still wouldn't make the build you said fucking viable.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 16, 20163 votes

the problem when they get lord dominks. not counting the armor pen. the passive in itself nullifies 70 armor or so because of the stupid total damage amplification.

a 400 armor malphite becomes a 200 armor malphite against an adc with lord dominks and frevor and the armor pen mastery.

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20163 votes

That's 17.5% less Effective HP. Remember, 1 point of Armor or MR is 1% extra HP against that damage type.

Votable JesterAug 17, 20163 votes

17.5% of the actual HP, not the effective HP though.

XeroKimoAug 17, 20161 votes

That is incorrect there is the law of diminishing returns. resistances is calculated as 1-100/(100+ resistances) * 100% at 200 armor you have 66% dmg reduction. but at 100 you have 50% dmg reduction

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20164 votes

It is correct.

If you have 70% DR (233 Armor) against a 0 penetration 100 AD auto attack you will take 30 damage. If you have 1000 HP it will take 34 auto attacks to kill you (30 x 34 = 1020). If you look at this in Effective HP, 233 Armor and 1000 HP is 3330 eHP (1000 x 233%). We now compare the full 100 AD to eHP because it isn't mitigated anymore (100 x 34 = 3400). Same number of autos.

Another example will be 75% DR, or 300 Armor, vs the same 100 AD 0 pen auto attack.

100 AD would do 25 damage to the target, and with the same health pool of 1000, it would take 40 autos to kill them. (25 x 40 = 1000) In effective HP the target would have 4000 eHP, so the 100 AD auto would take 40 autos to kill the target (100 x 40 = 4000). Still the same number of autos between normal HP and eHP, right? If we add just 10 points of armor to make it 310 Armor, it will take 1 more auto to kill the target because their eHP shot up by 10% to 4100 making the needed autos to kill 41. So even though that 10 armor only increased their DR by ~0.6%, it gave them 10% more eHP.

If you wanna do the more complicated math instead of nice neat numbers, feel free, and I hope this made sense. Pretty tired while writing this.

XeroKimoAug 17, 20164 votes

Ok let's get a bit complicated you said adding 10 armor to 300. It doesn't even add 1% it adds an additional ~0.6% with that your autos deal ~24.4 dmg, the game shows rounded numbers so decimal places aren't seen most of the time.

1000/24.4 = 41 autos making EHP 4100 it didn't increase the EHP by 10% it only increased it by 2.5% therefore 1 point in resistance does not = 1% increase in EHP

Edit: We are both stupid in our calculations.

You added 10% on 4000 making it 4400 which is incorrect

I said that it didn't increase by 10%, but that's in terms of 4000 not the original 1000 making me incorrect but you correct

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20162 votes

Whoops, you're right. I also don't know how I got 1.7% DR increase even though it went from .25 to .243. I'll fix that real quick.

TesliumAug 17, 20161 votes

The way that these builds are popping up like mushrooms will end up losing armor pen as a stat. That is exactly why spell vamp was removed in the first place. Champions that shouldn't buy spell vamp bought it and became a lot stronger than they should. We might end up losing it this preseason.

VasilisGreenAug 17, 20162 votes

in that case, all champions that need armor pen, like assassins, will have to get innate armor pen and that's not healthy. If Armor wasn't so abundant and easy to get, armor pen wouldn't be so popular. Remember how in season 5 everyone built a last whisper and that was it? Now that it's gone, people start building cleavers, LDRs and huge amounts of flat pen to be relevant with all those tanks running rampant all over the place.