I strongly believe Bork should have different stats for Melee and Ranged champions.

Sahn Uzal·May 21, 2017·86 votes·2,253 views

Like we had on the PBE, a few days earlier.

Why? Because the item has proven to be a nightmare to balance, and is build on a wide variety of champions. This would simply give the item some good new balance levers for Riot to work with.

Let's say the item is too strong on Melee champions, you lower the amount Melees get to be closer to what Ranged champions get. Let's say the item is too strong on Ranged champions, you increase the gap by decreasing the amount of % damage ranged champions get.

70 Comments

420 gramsMay 21, 201713 votes

I don't even think the item is that hard to balance except Lucian synergized with it too well.

Sahn UzalMay 21, 20178 votes

It's been an issue quite often historically, it's either overpowered as fuck or rarely/never bought.

SpoofghoulMay 22, 20175 votes

It's a relic from a time where tanks had access to 5k health and good armor same with liandries

It was introduced to deal with hyper tanky champions

but we lost all that hp and armor and now it has to be either overtuned to be useful or it's weak

if riot insist on low hp tanks then why do we even need an item like botrk

Big LincolnMay 22, 20174 votes

i miss 5k health builds being the norm

SpoofghoulMay 22, 20171 votes

At the very least it was more clear

You could more easily tell who was tanky and who wasn't

now people run around with 500 armor and 2.5k hp but the other guy has 150 armor and also has 2.5k hp and a few shields/heals and another guy has a bunch of % reductions and lifesteal with 2-2.5k hp

you can't really assess anymore who is tanky who is not etc etc

used to be a lot more clear, if an adc was running around with more then the usual hp then you would know they took more effort to kill because they would need to have a defensive item to get that hp

as for tanks you would know their resists were high if they ran around with 3.5-4k hp or if their resists where medium if they ran around with 5k+

way easier then current situation to assess

AimléssMay 22, 201713 votes

I just don't understand why certain champions are allowed to super synergize with items like Lucian's passive shot and BOTRK, or Grave's instant stacks on BC. All that kind of stuff does is cause balance issues, so why the hell is Riot so hesitant to change this kind of stuff? Instead they'll go and nerf some other part of their kit, I just don't get it.

Velzard of KozMay 22, 20171 votes

They should be working on one-spell recognition system. It was long time ago that they said it and I don't know what is with it but should they implement it, it may resolve a thing or two.

The system would recognize multiple instances of damage made by one spell and count it as one spell towards various mechanics. For example, Morgana's pool would no longer proc Thunderlords as one spell due to inflicting three instances of damage, instead it would count as one spell used regardless of how many ticks the enemy is inflicted by.

Same might go for Graves in case his quick stacking of BC is due to his Passive.

RocketRelmMay 22, 20171 votes

I'm kind of low key dreading that patch, because once they do it Morgana's win rate is going to drop at 'least' 1%, maybe 2% or more, and I'm not sure if Rito is going to compensation buff her for it (or if they do, buff her in an awkward way).

Sp33d Zer0May 22, 20176 votes

item 3151 Lucian item 3153 Darius item 3071 Ryze item 3027 Akali item 3146 Ezreal item 3057 Swain item 3157 Olaf item 3156 but no one ever really thinks about just HOW strong that combo is. Taric item 3190 LeeSin item 1408 Yasuo item 1051

There are a lot more, but you get what I mean. As long as the champion is balanced with their items in mind, most of these champions don't seem that bad.

Stand in my XMay 22, 20176 votes

Yasuo item 3031 item 3046

FTFY

Sp33d Zer0May 22, 20172 votes

I specifically put glove because all crit has good synergy on yas, and for a long while, shiv was more seen.

Whut Thuh May 22, 20172 votes

the only ones i really see a problem with is the darius ezreal and lucain ones, i still dont get why the lucian one even exists since i thought they changed the coding on his second auto because it worked too well with bc and i believe their words were "lucians passive double auto no longer procs on hit effects because it is not an auto attack" so idk why thats still a thing, darius is still bs but hes a rare enough pick that you dont see him too often so no one complains. ezreal is just infuriating because of the way his kit uses it perfectly. i dont like it but its still balanced

the others are just kind of meh synergys

Sp33d Zer0May 22, 20171 votes

I personally find the brand akali and ryze ones to be the most busted because of the massive double dipping they get from it.

Whut Thuh May 23, 20171 votes

ryze and akali i could maybe agree with but brands burns dont stack, its like teemo shrooms where multiple applications of the DOT dont stack they just refresh the duration so its not super good

Sp33d Zer0May 23, 20171 votes

I would argue that refreshing Liandry's burn with the spell pen making his current dot is immense synergy, but that may be a person opinion.

LordGeovanniMay 22, 20172 votes

Olaf item 3156 ? Taric item 3190 ?

Sp33d Zer0May 22, 20173 votes

Maw triggers it's spell shield at low health and gives life steal after the activation. The lower Olaf's health is, the faster his attack speed. This means that if Olaf is fighting a mage, activating his maw is basically a win because he will be attacking extremely quickly with life steal going while having a shield against their damage.

Tarics biggest strength is his ultimate which the counter play to is to kill the high priority target before it goes off. Locket provides an aoe buffer making it even harder to capitalize those couple seconds you have to ruin his team.

LordGeovanniMay 22, 20171 votes

item 3190 sheild is hardly big enough you would have been chancing in a losing fight any way if you were relying on 200 odd hp not stopping you. Biggest counter too tarics ult is to wait it out / hard cc. But either way that doesnt work like the rest of them. Same with olaf that item passive was originally on rage blade. Maws life steal when low is shit and shit when compared to its old passive which was more synergistic with olay giving up to 35 ad for % of your missing health.

flibitydooMay 23, 20171 votes

maw is extremely questionable as olaf's damage output is never bad. his base damages/stats allow him to kill any squishy and his cc immunity means that all he needs is to not die to their damage output to win.

which is why every olaf on the planet just builds tank the whole way through.

personally I've found taric's best items to be iceborn+frozen heart. he works well with all of the stats- the armour for his armour scalings, the flat mana for his mana costs, and the cdr is always nice on supports, and the bonus effects of attackspeed slow/sheenslow are useful for surviving/giving taric more cc outside of a stun. Only issue now, is that the frozen fist gives too much cdr to really fit nicely into his build.

depending on locket shield to secure your ult is very bad, it's better and cheaper to just depend on good timing. and if the ult is successful, then a bunch of the shield get's wasted.

Troll for TrumpMay 23, 20171 votes

Sad part is Brand doesn't even get Liandry's anymore.

Luc also has Cleaver synergy

Sp33d Zer0May 23, 20171 votes

I only listed one item per champ for the specific reason of examples.

Also, anytime I see a brand they get liandry's and rylais. https://na.op.gg/champion/brand/statistics/support It's also on everyone of his most popular builds. https://na.op.gg/champion/brand/statistics/mid

Sire HippingtonMay 22, 20172 votes

If Lucian's Synergie with On-hit was that insane, when why wasn't he ever used with on-hit in the past, includeing previous prim times of BotrK? BotrK is overall overtuned, which is why lucian uses it. He rarly tuched it befor the 7.5 changes. So if BotrK gets nerfed, it won't be because of lucian specifically. It's the rush item on prettymuch every single adc right now with few exeptions.

Sp33d Zer0May 22, 20171 votes

He did use it in its prime what are you talking about?

Sire HippingtonMay 23, 20171 votes

Yes, he sometimes used it, but it was not amongst his core items. Getting crit items+arpen was higher priority, and even as 5th or 6th item, mercurial was the more popular choice. Later on the Lethality+BC builts took over, usually paired with some crit, so BotrK again only was used situationally on him.

Kog, Vayne and Twitch for example are much more closely linked to BotrK in their overall performance. It has been a go to item on them even when it wasn't strong(exept for when Vayne had the crit rush with the buffed Q)

Big LincolnMay 21, 20178 votes

i think bork should be removed or have a lot of power trimmed

anti-tank anti-squishy lifesteal burst damage kiting chasing one-size-fits-all AD item

MarshbouyMay 21, 201713 votes

It was pretty much fine before they buffed it. I get the feeling that "heavily trimmed" means "gutted so that it's useless", but I may be wrong.

macromiteMay 21, 20176 votes

I disagree, I think it should probably have limited useage on ranged classes though.

most of the melees that use it use it fairly.

AimléssMay 22, 20173 votes

Why can't you people just ask for balance. They should aim to make it equally effective for both range and melee.

TwitchInMyPantsMay 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Why can't you people just ask for balance. They should aim to make it equally effective for both range and melee.

But its not. Runaans exist so you get 8% x 3. Without that Lucian exist so every shot of 8% is x2. There's some similar melee resets but these characters also have the penalty of being melee. Ranged characters right now get more out of the item and its balanced around ranged characters, that's why people are suggesting having a ranged only nerf.

Sire HippingtonMay 23, 20171 votes

Ranged and melee are by default **not **equal, espcially when it comes to AAs, so why should we treat them as equal?

Teridax68May 23, 20171 votes

I agree with this, mainly because I think widely available anti-tank itemization just creates more balancing problems overall, especially relative to how tanks have their durability adjusted. When one champion has max health damage or armor pen, that orients them better towards dealing with tanks, but when every AD champion can buy an anti-tank item in a game where you're practically guaranteed to see at least one frontliner on each side, it's not so much about filling a niche as it is about upping the arms race between damage-dealers and tanks. Unless BotRK gets massive, unwieldy stat tweaks, like a pure focus on attack speed and its on-hit effect, it will never be a niche item, and will continue to be overly common until it gets nerfed too hard, whereupon it will never be picked instead of its competition.

Big LincolnMay 23, 20171 votes

bork was never an anti-tank item

when bork is good it's built as an anti-everyone item

Teridax68May 23, 20171 votes

I agree that in practice, anti-tank was never really its niche, but its original design intent really was to make it an anti-tank option, particularly since it was the successor to Madred's Bloodrazor, itself intended to make marksmen counter tankier champions. Still, the focus on its on-hit current health damage does make tankier champions suffer more than others when it's popular.

Mira Arya EntheMay 22, 20174 votes

This. I thought it was a good change.

An Enemy SutandoMay 22, 20173 votes

I still don't understand why the nerf on it was reverted.

Funkin DunkinMay 22, 20173 votes

Probably the smartest thing I've heard all day!

NymzoMay 22, 20172 votes

Come on Tidant, that would require too much effort.

invisiblecat1May 23, 20172 votes

Lucian and Ezreal can easily proc the passive, and therefore the item has to be nerfed for all ranged champions Lucian can easily get of 4 procs of it in a second, while Ezreal can get off 3 a second Meanwhile Melee champions who sometimes build it only get off 1-2 a second It just needs to be an Auto attack only thing, and not be applied on effects that apply on hit effects (So basically doesn't work on ezreal Q, or lucian passive)

LordOfTheLeagueMay 22, 20171 votes

Why not just make it like liandries and apply a dot, it won't scale as much with attack speed but more with the enemy HP.

Mig89May 22, 20171 votes

lol what

LordOfTheLeagueMay 22, 20171 votes

Is it too much of a change ? What was the point of your comment ?

Mig89May 22, 20172 votes

Thats exactly what liandrys does lol. Edit: after reading your first comment for like the 5th time i finally realized i misread it. I thought you were being funny or something but i did not see "like" liandrys. my bad

OtterlyLostMay 22, 20171 votes

I don't think BoRK is an issue at the moment at all. The only champion I see majorly abusing it is Lucian which is no surprise. :/ He's consistently abusing items that get buffed which makes me wish that they would look at Lucian instead of nerfing an item for an entire class of champions. Lucian, in my opinion, is the problem and needs to be reworked or looked at because the armor pen issues started with Lucian and the BoRK issues also did as well.

And for anyone who says BoRK was "fine" before they buffed, you're literally just saying that because it was watered down and weak as shit. BoRK was a fairly weak item all of season 6. The last time I remember BoRK being viable was season 5 and it was a core item I built on Tristana; IE, PD, BoRK is what I used to do in Season 5. Now I can reliably do that this season as well. IE, Runaan's, BoRK and she's not half as awful in the midgame as she usually is.

Just as proof that BoRK was not fine before they buffed it, do you remember when it used to be a core item on Vayne? How many Vayne's did you see build it in Season 6? Or for that matter, when Vayne was strong, how many built it then? BoRK has been bad for a long time.

Sahn UzalMay 22, 20171 votes

A lot of champions that shouldn't be building it are currently rushing it as their first item because it simply is an overtuned item. https://euw.op.gg/champion/ashe/statistics/adc https://euw.op.gg/champion/jinx/statistics/adc

Ashe and Jinx are just an example here.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 22, 20171 votes

and why shouldn't jinx build it? i've mained jinx since i started league, i've built this item whenever there was anyone with enough hp.

you trade a little AD you'd get from bloodthirster for some onhit to deal with tanks and extra AS.

Sahn UzalMay 22, 20172 votes

You building it =/= the item being good on her. It's only a meta rush on her atm because it's overtuned.

Th3 ProfessorMay 22, 20171 votes

He is stating why he builds it, meaning it is situational in the fact that it does its job. The item is good on her when they have high hp tanks on the other team, which it is.

Sahn UzalMay 22, 20171 votes

In most cases, BloodThirster is vastly superior. There are scenarios where Bork could be considered a decent pick up, but it should be nowhere near as common as it is now. It's basically her go-to rush, which it should not be.