People really have some weird anger towards executioner's.

Naomi CoffeeGoat··21 votes·1,982 views

So we have a Quinn jungle against a Mundo jungle. The game goes by and she turns to all chat and calls Mundo broken. I tell her that she didn't even have an Executioner's to help against him. She gets all pissy about that she's behind and is trying to build it, despite rushing Infinity Edge after Warrior enchant and proceeds to call me a dick. I almost don't feel anything against Mundo players right now. They make people salty and know they get away with it when people don't even want to try and counter him. I even see times where AP champs and supports pick it up because it's cheap and counters him nicely.

48 Comments

Penns5 votes

Implying grievous wounds make Mundo any less broken. Also implying 40% healing reduction does anything against a Mundo in 1v1 or 2v2 fights

Naomi CoffeeGoat20 votes

Because it's more of a team oriented thing to purchase Executioner's I feel. Would you rather have Mundo heal for as much as his ult duration in a fight or have 40% reduction to it in a fight? It's 800g to help reduce his effectiveness and he'll heal for much less after just taking physical damage every few seconds.

Bonipherus10 votes

Grievous wounds basically equates to true damage against a healing target. A Mundo with 4k health would normally heal for 2400 health over 12 seconds. If you keep grievous wounds on him for that duration it is the same as 960 true damage because he only heals for 1440 health instead.

Sire Hippington2 votes

thats his ult only, some more comes in from his passive enchanced regen and the heal after landing a Q as well as probably the 'grasp of the undying' masterie.

doombotMECHA1 votes

it reduces that too.

Sire Hippington1 votes

that's why i'm saying it...

Heckin Support2 votes

I like this idea, maybe if we make it sound like they're dealing damage to him they'll buy it!

Bonipherus1 votes

You wanna know what else would help? Giving item 3123 an info box displaying how much healing it stopped. Similar to how item 3046 tells you how much damage it prevented.

Penns6 votes

Yeah but it doesnt matter. Most of the time when Mundo ults, hes gonna hunt you down. You wont attack him, and if you do (because you kite/ cc him), the grievous wounds wont matter at all in that situation. Seriously if Mundo is ahead by a little bit he doesnt give a fuck about 40% healing reduction (as long as he isnt standing in 5 man, in which case he should die anyway with the 20% health cost), he uses his ult to get a speed boost. And even if he uses his ult for the regen, itll be either in lane where he can stay back anyway or in a fight where he can and would easily run away regardless of your grievous wounds.

Ackelope3 votes

Also implying 40% healing reduction does anything against a Mundo in 1v1 or 2v2 fights

Well let's see. At level one, Mundo's ult heals for 3.3% of his max hp per second. for 12 seconds. If that 3.3% is reduced by 40% it should be around 1.98%. So the ult without grievous wounds will heal for 39.6% of his max hp, with grievous wounds it should heal for only 23.76%. at level 2, 4.2% of his max hp per second, for 12 seconds. so without grievous wounds at level 2 it should heal a total of 50.4% of his max hp, with grievous wounds, it'd be 2.52% per second, for a total of 30.24% of his max hp. At level 3, it heals 5% of his max hp per second, again for 12 seconds. Without grievous wounds that'd be 60% of his max hp, with it'd be 36%. His passive heals for 0.3% of his max hp per second without grievous wounds, with, it heals around 0.12%. Over 12 seconds that will heal 3.6% of his max hp without grievous wounds, and 2.16% with grievous wounds. So, as it happens, it is actually reduced by a decent amount, in any situation....

Penns2 votes

I think you should see that 15.8 or 3.3 times 2 = way less than 40 or 1.32, which is impossible because his heal would have to be reduced by over 50%

Next time subract the 40% from the 100% :D

Ackelope2 votes

No, it reduces incoming self-healing each time it is applied, so I would still be correct, since it applies a certain amount per second, not the entire thing at once

EDIT: Pardon me, I screwed the numbers up on the first post, and made it look like it was being reduced by 60% rather than 40%. Fixed that, and sorry for the initial mistake :P And, as it happens, reducing 40% from the 100% ends up with the same results as the method I used, mine was just much more tedious.... In any case, the amount it reduces by is still enough to be worth, I'd say.

Penns1 votes

Ill just quote my other post here because it seems pretty fittig:

{quoted}

Yeah but it doesnt matter. Most of the time when Mundo ults, hes gonna hunt you down. You wont attack him, and if you do (because you kite/ cc him), the grievous wounds wont matter at all in that situation. Seriously if Mundo is ahead by a little bit he doesnt give a fuck about 40% healing reduction (as long as he isnt standing in 5 man, in which case he should die anyway with the 20% health cost), he uses his ult to get a speed boost. And even if he uses his ult for the regen, itll be either in lane where he can stay back anyway or in a fight where he can and would easily run away regardless of your grievous wounds.

summoner 4

Ackelope2 votes

He can run away, but driving him off is still better than just letting him smack on you.

Llanite1 votes

None matters when he just ult then runs away at 100 mph, heal then come back. He also passively heals 0.3% or 18% per minute which you couldnt do a crap against.

EC is useless against Mundo because he heals out of combat, while you can only apply EC in combat.

Ackelope2 votes

Yes, but for him to be out of combat he has to be, well, out of combat. Let's say he goes in, gets attacked, and sure, he can ult and try and run away, but at the very least you're driving him off, and assuming your team has some CC to slow him down/stun him, he can still be killed.

Llanite1 votes

And yet he's not...broken? Do you even read that you type.

Squidblimp1 votes

He's getting nerfed next patch. It's just that people complain without even trying to counter him at all.

Llanite1 votes

You can't 'counter' him with EC, just as MR does not 'counter' Annie, simply partially mitigate it, which wouldn't even work on smart Mundo.

Squidblimp1 votes

It counters him. His whole kit is literally based around healing and HP regen. If you cut that in half, he is almost half as tanky. His whole thing is sustained damaged while healing up. If he dies fast, he can't deal sustained damage.

Ackelope1 votes

No, he isn't broken.. having to be cc'd to be killed is a common trait amongst a lot of other characters. This aspect of him is not really an issue.

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

I played Swain against a Zed . We killed him pretty early with (with help from my jungler) and he came back to lane with only item 3123 (he had started item 1036 ) . Neither of us was even level 6 yet. It let him outduel me for a long time in conjunction with item 3155 despite the lead I got from (repeated) ganks.

Social Justice 11 votes

{quoted}

I played Swain against a Zed . We killed him pretty early with (with help from my jungler) and he came back to lane with only item 3123 (he had started item 1036 ) . Neither of us was even level 6 yet. It let him outduel me for a long time in conjunction with item 3155 despite the lead I got from (repeated) ganks.

I'm pretty sure Zed, the mobile assassin, is supposed to out-duel Swain, some kind of beefy mage, for most/all of the game.

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

I wasn't saying zed shouldn't be able to outduel swain. I was more commenting on how effective an early executioners calling and hexdrinker can be against him. In this game I was 0/0/4 and zed was 0/4/0 at 12 minutes or so because of ganks and he could still 1 v 1 me because he picked up item 3123 . Otherwise I think I could have taken him with the 4 assist xp+gold lead.

Teridax682 votes

Part of this is likely because we're all still early in the preseason, and it's not easy to learn all of the stuff needed to succeed in one go, so even against a Mundo/Swain/Vladimir/Soraka team comp people might still not think to build Executioner's. Another issue, and one that's not exclusive to ExCalling, is that it's an extremely reactive buy on a class that is typically very proactive: up until recently, marksmen have only been building items designed to make them stronger in a way that benefited their champion, which is why we had the Infinity Edge rush and identical build paths in every game. It's not easy for most players to put their core build and item power spikes on hold and divert from their item path just because the enemy sustain champion is becoming a problem, just as many mages felt/feel uncomfortable at the idea of rushing Seeker's Armguard/Zhonya's Hourglass just because that was the best choice to stop Zed from snowballing in lane. On top of that, Executioner's feels bad to pick right now because it's a niche choice that's competing with Lord Dominik's Regards, an item that will usually work to full power in pretty much any situation (including against enemy mages and the like, which is an issue).

I'm guessing that this will become less of an issue within the next few months, once people realize for themselves, or from the pros, that Executioner's is necessary against sustain-heavy champions and that it's worth rushing even early on in most situations, and the Dominik's/Mortal Reminder clash will hopefully be made a bit more level with changes to Giant Slayer, which needs to be a lot less effective against squishies (e.g. "I built Rod of Ages/Rylai's Crystal Scepter, this item thinks I'm a tank now") while similarly effective against properly tanky enemies, so the end result would be that Last Whisper should build into two similarly niche items and not one super-niche pick versus a good-against-everything damage boost. Personally, though, I really dislike Executioner's Calling and Grievous Wounds in general, and while it was worth bringing back the item just to satisfy the community who wanted to see it again, while also testing out how to make GW better, I don't think the mechanic is ever going to be that good or intuitive. Right now, it only needs to exist because champions like Mundo or Swain have really poorly controlled healing, and would snowball in every game without healing reduction, yet the problem's been made worse because of Grievous Wounds, as those champions need their sustain to be strong enough even when hard-countered 24/7 (i.e. when someone has Executioner's Calling or even just a Morellonomicon). Even when it's doing work, the effect's not really that easy to appreciate, and even now it's just power without gameplay (at least Morellonomicon requires you to bring an enemy down to a health threshold first), so I think the end goal should be to remove Grievous Wounds completely from the game and make strong self-sustain a mechanic with innate counterplay, not one that's OP and impossible to deal with properly until you get the item that shuts it down.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Welcome to why I think Riot was a bunch of idiots for trying to bring GW back into the game.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

because it doesn't work. that 40% is not enough

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

because it doesn't work. that 40% is not enough

They should rebalance both GW as well as the self-heals currently in game. If GW were reduced to about 25%, and the base heals were reduced it would make the champions less op if GW is not bought, they won't be countered as bad by a single item. I don't have enough experience with Mundo to know how his heals are tuned though.

TwinkiePro1 votes

Frankly, Mundo is broken and can easily snowball. He can build pure tank and straight up out dps you with all his basic abilities. Q scales off the enemies max hp, w does aoe, e boosts his autos AND is an auto reset where the first hit scales to 5% of his own hp. Executioner and bork are necessary to fight him properly, as well as good peel, because he can easy walk over most champs.

qetzel1 votes

EC is good against 1 champion. If Quinn were to buy it, she would be pretty bad against every other champion.

It is a nice item and it does its job well but due to the inefficiency against the targets you actually want to kill (Focussing Mundo even with GW is stupid) it isn't worth it before your third item, probably.

Said as a low ranked person, but it makes sense, right?

Sire Hippington1 votes

it's also good vs any adc, because of lifesteal+critmasterie, and often enough there will be another somewhat selfheal useing champ on the other team.

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

EC is good against 1 champion. If Quinn were to buy it, she would be pretty bad against every other champion.

It is a nice item and it does its job well but due to the inefficiency against the targets you actually want to kill (Focussing Mundo even with GW is stupid) it isn't worth it before your third item, probably.

Said as a low ranked person, but it makes sense, right?

same deal with item 3140 against Malzahar, and to an extent zed. That doesn't make them bad items, executioner's calling is fairly cheap and it still reduces all other selfheals on the team, including lifesteal.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XEkp2A4,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-12-05T14:18:57.767+0000)

same deal with item 3140 against Malzahar, and to an extent zed. That doesn't make them bad items, executioner's calling is fairly cheap and it still reduces all other selfheals on the team, including lifesteal.

Except you can free yourself from ANY CC from ANYONE.

EC really only helps against a few champs. Mundo, Swain, Vlad, and other marksmen, but in the case of other marksmen, you could build a good deal of other things and just bypass EC and Mortal Reminder.

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

Except you can free yourself from ANY CC from ANYONE.

EC really only helps against a few champs. Mundo, Swain, Vlad, and other marksmen, but in the case of other marksmen, you could build a good deal of other things and just bypass EC and Mortal Reminder.

ANY CC is misleading, it won't help you against most displacements.

'other marksmen' aren't that rare, and usually there'll be one champ you buy qss against that you will save it for. It also reduces hp regen, which may or may not be a large amount. It also helps vs self-healing from Kayle Nidalee and the like.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XEkp2A4,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-05T19:13:39.536+0000)

ANY CC is misleading, it won't help you against most displacements.

'other marksmen' aren't that rare, and usually there'll be one champ you buy qss against that you will save it for. It also reduces hp regen, which may or may not be a large amount. It also helps vs self-healing from Kayle Nidalee and the like.

Fair enough. You can't save yourself from suspensions, knock-ups, knock-backs, and pulls, but you can save yourself from the stun that happens right before the pull (for whatever worth that offers).

Regardless, the point is that most of EC's targets that you could use it on can simply be burst down by stacking crit chance to something really high anyway, so what's the point in most instances? Given how tanky Mundo is, the only 2 people this item really helps an adc with is Swain and Vlad. No adc building Mortal Reminder is gonna be able to fight off Mundo.

BastionKross

You're doing your job right as DrMundo if you're forcing your opponents to build items that specifically counter you and not as much your teammates.

Just like Malzahar Warwick, if you can get an enemy damage dealer to buy a item 3140 just for you, then you've succeeded in playing your champion well and having the enemy delay their item build is part of the reward.

qetzel1 votes

I agree, but the situation with QSS is slightly different. QSS is effective against the entire team as it allows you to keep damaging everyone. EC good against Mundo but really doesn't help you do anything else.

Romans VI XXIII4 votes

except it gives you damage, so it to

allows you to keep damaging everyone.

logic

Ralanr1 votes

I think people just see it as sacrificing your damage output for a particular target. What annoys me is that no one considers if they should sacrifice their damage or not.

Pretty much every time the item is needed, I buy it on Sion because the ADC doesn't. Overall it helps because once I hit the problem champion, my team can bring them down.

Course ADC is a heavy item reliant role, so what items they buy effect them more. But really this just makes me see the role as inherently selfish (assassins should also build the item. At least If the ADC doesn't) when they don't buy an item to help their team.

Xosra1 votes

I had a game where my mundo got shut down as the enemy vayne and aatrox built BotrK. Sure it got nerfed a little but 6% of over 3k health is a lot. Plus they packed on the lifesteal for defense. People need to remember Botrk is still worth it too. I'm one of the few adc who do build it if needed after i get my first damage item.

9kPluzZ1 votes

Grevius wounds isn't gonna stop mundo from chunking you down with his insane AD steroids, percent damage, and Dots

ragnos2391 votes

Did a 3's match the other day with my friends and we ended up against a mundo. I was playing tristana, built executioner's into.... what is it now, mortal reminder? Anyway, I had the grievous wounds, I had the armor pen, I had lifesteal and %hp burn from the botrk. I had all the items people say counter him. Team fights would happen, I would jump away and knock him away with my ult, my team would use their CC on him and he would still kill me in 4 seconds and walk away at full health.

Kaeblen1 votes

Braum item 3123 for the win

Matezoide1 votes

> Mundo gets % of his max health as damage in one spell > Suddenly his Q is too strong, his passive is OP, his Ult makes him possible to catch and GW doesnt shit on him anymore

Classic Gameplay. Reminds me of people saying Garen was impossible to kite and had a super long silence post rework.

Sammystorm1 votes

Mundo does what he pleases.

TotalJerk1 votes

I don't wanna hear shit from anyone about balance in the preseason until people stop buying Last Whisper on Corki.

Twitch Chat1 votes

BUY EXECUTIONERS TO COUNTER MUNDO QE CHUNKING HALF OF YOUR HP

Papa Slothy1 votes

This once happened to me, except I said "Mundo's ult could use some nerfs ;-;" he replied "why didn't u get executioners" I replied "I forgot the item existed"

Riot needs to put that on recommended for all AD top laners that need to outsustain

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