I still seriously don't get going against Graves.

Naomi CoffeeGoat·Jul 7, 2016·52 votes·3,486 views

He has high burst, he's got lots of mobility on top of already being an ADC so he has kiting potential, his E makes him stupidly tanky, and he has rather cheap wave clear. At no point does he ever seem weak and only scales harder into late game. I've also had awful experiences when he has decent life steal, no amount of burst can really kill him outright in a fight. Also having to fight him top as a melee champ is complete AIDS. He doesn't have the weakness of being squishy for any top laner to outright kill.

67 Comments

xWatersJul 7, 201612 votes

Played Graves jungle for the first time today and went 9/6. I died like 5 times before ten minute mark because I was figuring out graves and his resets. And your right, he does a ton of damage, hard to kill, can e over walls, and not fun to play against.

XeruonJul 8, 20161 votes

The only things that can beat Graves right now are either range or surperior sustain. The former doesn't exist in the jungle or top lane, since he's rarely played as an ADC anymore, and if he takes Bloodlust and builds DD+BT+PD he's unkillable in any 1v1 and will do too much damage.

ShaydroxJul 7, 20168 votes

I don't feel like he offers many fair ways for melee champs to deal with him. I mean if you get close to another adc, you can kill them or outtrade them because you have the higher base stats. Against Graves however, for you to actually get close to him, rewards him rather than rewarding you and it makes him feel really unfair to face.

SpoofghoulJul 7, 20168 votes

This^^^^

He gets so tanky, and with his cheap pushing he often has minion advantage too and he can just dash away if he wishes to do so not even creep block will stop him.

Then he just pushes and chips away at your tower for 40 minutes untill he reaches nexus its dumb af

And he fires 4 auto's at once making him abuse warlords really hard

Its not as effective on a single target but hitting 4 minions its like he gets the full 20% lifesteal which is fucking annoying because he will just outsustain you after every trade

So the one thing you can do against graves is allin him, but, bursting him down aint gonna happen and he gets more damage the closer you are to him then lifesteals everything up anyway so going allin is suicide

There isnt a thing you can do vs him in the toplane its pure aids he has 0 counterplay

ShaydroxJul 8, 20161 votes

Exactly. He counters melee champions by nature, while having a range advantage as well. It's like a ranged form of Darius, you don't have great options of fighting him but you cannot ignore him as he pushes hard, bursts you down if you aren't careful, and takes turrets easily as well. He's so broken atm.....

statelesskillerJul 7, 20166 votes

i find him a blatantly frustrating adc to lane against top. sure you can be cheeky hide behind your minions and he cant hit you. but he 3 shots minions at the start of games.you cant walk past your own minions without losing a quarter of your health from two freaking autos. and then when you run after him it always seems like he is moving faster then you even if he is stopping to auto. again lets not forget he has 2 separate dashes . . . on a adc. one of which makes him tanky as well as having its CD reduced by auto attacking. the other which ALSO causes him to deal a metric fuck ton of damage. its basically blatantly impossible for any top laner to get onto him. its quinn all over again.

one thing im not sure about is how his auto attacks interact with life steal. so like spell vamp when applied to aoe spells like say vlad E gives reduced spell vamp. so im wondering if graves auto attacks get treated the same way for life steal. if you ask me he really should given the fact that he does so much damage up close. hell i have seen graves with just a D blade heal noticeable amounts at the start of games.

CaítlynJul 7, 20165 votes

I dont get how hes not OP as hell. He 1 shots people with only autos. And he heals like 500 per hit. Like what is that?

CosnirakJul 7, 20164 votes

And he has 340 base ms. I got him recently in ARAM and despite only playing him once or twice since his rework was able to easily carry because he's so broken. I got a pentakill that game, did the most damage to champs, had a great record despite dieing several times to just being bad, and I was immune to poke because warlord's + death's dance.

Utility VeigarJul 7, 20163 votes

They should take out the knockback from his autos against jungle monsters. That would make jungle Graves harder to achieve. Right now it's still easy because you can easily kite the jungle camps back.

CeexSettJul 7, 20162 votes

Riot wants to make Graves a jungler, I think.

Or at least is not bothered by it.

So they won't nerf jungle especific mechanics of him.

FeathermaneJul 7, 20163 votes

Yeah, it's almost like bruisers are bullshit, and always have been.

Left Hook LarryJul 7, 201615 votes

Bruisers aren't bullshit. It's when they become ranged that they become bullshit

CppLJul 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it's almost like bruisers are bullshit, and always have been.

Yes ,because they all ranged ,have burst like a burst mages ,and have the best defence steroids in the game.

FeathermaneJul 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes ,because they all ranged ,have burst like a burst mages ,and have the best defence steroids in the game.

Pretty much.

CasterGilgameshJul 7, 20163 votes

i thought we were all done with the Graves hate train graves shouldnt get any nerfs unless they make him better as adc as it is other adcs just out poke him there is a reason he needs to be tanky is that he is an adc that has to get in melee range or his autos dont do much damage also champions that get on him more or less do want to get on him meaning they already do a ton of damage on their own like Darius Irelia Tryndamere Trundle all these top laners have tons of damage and get to be tanky one of them even has a gap closer graves cant last hit the back row of minions without getting past the front row so now graves also has to survive a team fight AND deal damage all while being easy to kill so of course riot lets him keep the free mr and armor on his dash

https://media3.giphy.com/media/26AHJmlUaCqJvu4kU/200.gif

https://media4.giphy.com/media/l0K47QoHwYHej94cw/200.gif

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20162 votes

Yeah nobody likes to think. If you can't face tank a champ with a glass cannon build then that champ is OP regardless of build. Hell there are people screaming OP about Cait now lol

DefendedJul 7, 20162 votes

Sad part is he got nerfed 9 times

FirstAidKittyJul 7, 201628 votes

10 times. Losing the cigar was a big nerf.

StoryDuckJul 7, 20164 votes

Nah, he just got buffed to vaping.

KadavikJul 7, 20162 votes

Vape Nation Bruh!

LatetotheRaceJul 7, 20161 votes

Still not balanced... Solution, make him melee..... Kind of a shotgun thing right? not working at range. (buckshot)

DavarrilJul 7, 20162 votes

No cigar is a huge downside to him.

Celeste BenalJul 7, 20162 votes

https://youtu.be/tHQWkLDsB4U

Watch part 2 for even more lols.

Yosuke ApperuJul 7, 20162 votes

I went against him top lane as renekton... So many salty.. salty tears...i got straight up destroyed without him even using ultimate.. When I got back to lane he all inned me and used ultimate this time so I died again... and then their jungler camped top and tower dove with him... That game made me so sad xD

Tychusfindlay919Jul 7, 20161 votes

Graves unfortunately is pretty insane right now. I don't find too much of an issue against him as Darius since Graves has such a low base health that I occasionally get windows to dunk him before his life steal bullshit sustain can get too crazy. But otherwise he's an ass.

The only other time I don't suffer against him too much is as late game Nasus but that isn't saying much about his current state.

In any case, I have my eyes more focused on a bigger broken piece of shit.

Azir Azir Azir

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20162 votes

So Azir being skill reliant makes him broken? I'm losing faith in humanity more and more.

DorkunedAurasJul 8, 20161 votes

how about his lack of real weaknesses

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20161 votes

positioning can be a weakness. But I never have a problem with Azir. I just play Anivia into him

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h8Wxu0rM,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2016-07-08T01:53:24.643+0000)

So Azir being skill reliant makes him broken? I'm losing faith in humanity more and more.

No, I respect skillful azirs just as I respect people skilled in other champions.

But azir in particular, once mastered, is one of the most broken pieces of shit this game has ever seen.

Self peel, mobility, siege range, sustained magic DPS, conditional shielding, zoning capabilities. He's just a loaded as hell champion. His skill floor has kept his win rate low, but that could be thought of as artificial and not representative of just how strong that damn champion is (seeing how he is basically ban/pick in the LCS as well as having a relatively unhealthy 35+% ban rate in ranked).

Xerath on crack with slightly less range.

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20161 votes

Same could be said for a few other champs as well. But he can be countered

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h8Wxu0rM,comment-id=000f000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-08T16:34:46.249+0000)

Same could be said for a few other champs as well. But he can be countered

Name one other champion that has all of the following:

#1 siege range #2 self peel #3 A long range dash #4 conditional shielding #5 sustained Magic damage #6 zoning capabilities with immobile, untargetable units

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20162 votes

Touche you got me there cause Azir is unique in the fact that he is an AP Marksmen. But numerous champs have been played against him to good effect. Viktor, Zilean, Anvia, and a few others to go with that. A good Azir is a monster to face but that can be said about most mid laners.

Papa SlothyJul 8, 20161 votes

even a bad viktor can hold even against an azir

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20161 votes

Hell Cassiopeia counters Azir lol

Papa SlothyJul 8, 20161 votes

Taliyah taliyah can destroy azir assuming they have some experience

INoble KnightIJul 8, 20161 votes

Oh yeah I forgot about that one.

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h8Wxu0rM,comment-id=000f00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-08T17:15:13.840+0000)

Touche you got me there cause Azir is unique in the fact that he is an AP Marksmen. But numerous champs have been played against him to good effect. Viktor, Zilean, Anvia, and a few others to go with that. A good Azir is a monster to face but that can be said about most mid laners.

"but the same can be said about most mid laners"

This isn't going anywhere.

Azir is getting yet even more nerfs on the PBE, therefore, the general populus/riot agrees with me. Sorry I have to pull that card out but honest to god this is going nowhere.

INoble KnightIJul 9, 20161 votes

The nerfs aren't even major. They're just to the damage ramping I believe so it's not like he's getting a huge damage nerf. People just need to learn how to play against champs that are being skillfully used. Plus the general populous does not agree with you, only the low skilled vocal whiners agree with you while everyone else looks on while shaking their heads. Also using Riot to validate your claim on this is rather backwards considering their record for nerfing balanced champs for no reason other than just cause they feel like it. But whatever agree to disagree.

Tychusfindlay919Jul 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h8Wxu0rM,comment-id=000f0000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-09T10:59:37.236+0000)

The nerfs aren't even major. They're just to the damage ramping I believe so it's not like he's getting a huge damage nerf. People just need to learn how to play against champs that are being skillfully used. Plus the general populous does not agree with you, only the low skilled vocal whiners agree with you while everyone else looks on while shaking their heads. Also using Riot to validate your claim on this is rather backwards considering their record for nerfing balanced champs for no reason other than just cause they feel like it. But whatever agree to disagree.

Oh look, a silver league player talking about low skilled whiners while "the rest look on shaking their heads"

Fuck off. I have no time for you anymore.

CasterGilgameshJul 8, 20161 votes

i hope you know that graves has no built in life steal its probs just a combo of item 3812 and the warlords blood lust perk

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i hope you know that graves has no built in life steal its probs just a combo of and the warlords blood lust perk

I hope you know that I know that. I'm in platinum. I'm not an imbecile.

Ryzing2DiamondJul 7, 20161 votes

Yup. You forgot to mention that he has a ranged execute, so he stands on the same grounds as both Darius and Garen in the toplane.

CasterGilgameshJul 8, 20161 votes

his ult is only a real execute at close up though...it deal significantly less damage to targets farther away and people can block it so that no one in the back line can get hit so you just can snipe people

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

his ult is only a real execute at close up though...it deal significantly less damage to targets farther away and people can block it so that no one in the back line can get hit so you just can snipe people

This shows that you have zero understanding of graves.

It's funny watching you and noble nod off at each other even though the two of you are absolutely clueless.

CasterGilgameshJul 8, 20161 votes

i have played graves before dont spout such idiotic things.His ult IS block able since it spreads out after the first hit and the Spread out part does do less damage.

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i have played graves before dont spout such idiotic things.His ult IS block able since it spreads out after the first hit and the Spread out part does do less damage.

And I quote from you, "his ult is only a real execute at close up though...it deal significantly less damage to targets farther away..."

That is complete and utter horseshit. A simple check up on the ability in the lolwiki proves just how wrong that is.

The only thing you got right was bodyblocking.

Tychusfindlay919Jul 8, 20161 votes