i woke up with a epiphany about darius passive.

xDogMeatx·Nov 4, 2019·4 votes·4,071 views

heres a idea about darius's passive and my idea of his new passive.

current passive : after 5 stacks gives massive AD... correct?

instead heres a passive rework suggestion: how about either have a attack that stacks per strike or ability (yes E counts giving AD also) the more combat stacks there are on targets the more AD it gives per stack. that way its ad given over time instead of simply avoid 5 stacks= gg behavior. that way he would have a more sustained combat oriented instead of a bursty damage figure. ofc that price would have to either reduce or get rid of his bleed since hes getting power immediately if you do keep the bleed the E/Q inner axe wont proc the bleed and it will still be limited to 5 but wont trigger a massive break in AD stats. feel free to say why this would be good or nah.

yes it stacks infinitely but it goes away after some time all at once (or saps away very quickly).

Edit: ImTheJuggernauty came up with a better suggestion look at his post how to preserve darius's identity while also making him still threatening.

33 Comments

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20198 votes

Where is the counterplay? You get more ad and therefore fighting power? How can I prevent you from getting that ad? I can't. With a 5 stack mechanic like he has I can try and get away from him before he gets 5 stacks because Q doesn't always give a stack, w does but he also has a low attack speed. His "bursty" pattern is actually far from bursty because he needs to either kill someone with R to get ad or get the 5 stacks, which takes more time than all bursty characters combo.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

it stacks AD more slowly (say like 3-5 AD or something per stack early) and also numbers will have to be adjusted to increase his low attack speed ratio.

and also said it decays at a rapid rate when not even in champion combat.

its just a passive change i was thinking of not a whole kit rework.

when i say bursty i mean when he hits 5 stacks he gets a massive burst of damage that makes people tilted saying hes a tank/assassin level of damage. i feel this way its more healthier method of him.

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20194 votes

I know you aren't suggesting a rework of the kit, but your idea the requires to change his kit. I don't know if you know this, but his kit is designed with the passive as a core mechanic that forces people to take short trades. With your suggestion you are changing his pattern of having a breaking point to slowly getting power, which will make him feel lackluster since the breaking point then will never happen and people won't try to flee from you and other champions are then better at prolonged trades... Adjusting attackspeed numbers would just not be enough and there is a reason for why he isn't too good in higher elo (people know that the breaking point exists and his mobility is non-existent)

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

its a start though i feel its way more healthier having sustained damage as primary damage output. a juggernaut that can use aas effectively instead of strictly relying on abilities. again though im terrible at making a kit, i only designed the passive since its the most biggest power budget. it also makes him more viable thus less likely to fall off but he would lose some lane bullying power with this change since i didnt add anything else.

long story short: make his later game relevant instead of being a kill zone or useless ( lowering the feast or famine).

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20192 votes

With this change you have just made a worse Jax... His damage IS sustained but he is a juggernaut and need to be really threatening. Darius isn't threatening until he gets the 5th stack, his "burst" is a 4 second setup time and no this doesn't give lategame, because then he should get MORE ad than 200 at lvl 18 for getting 7 or 8 stacks which have and even longer setup time than the current 5 stack mechanic. It doesn't make him less feast or famine because his greatest weakness is mobility, which is why his 5 stack mechanic isn't broken, because most champions can try and run away from him...

btw you don't think 200 bonus ad + 300 on hit damage bleed makes his aa reliable? It is just 6 BF swords and 2 long swords worth in gold I can see his auto attacks isn't reliable... (8500g worth)

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

same said about fizz and the removal of his mark. "we believe removing the mark mechanic is more of a buff then a nerf because if played right this is a buff". if i remember correctly.

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20191 votes

Yeah because they then proceeded to buff the dot and w damage, but he is an assassin not a juggernaut or bruiser. It is like comparing a tomato to an apple. They functionally does different things in cooking... Riot with the assassin rework gave almost all assassins setup time, they are squishy and got increased difficulty in doing what an assassin does best with the setup time(assassinate) and thus took this away from both Fizz and LeBlanc... While Darius is a Juggernaut and want some way to be increasingly threatening when fighting him it makes sense that he just gets the breaking point or setup time if you may.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i see now i read the post again. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/dLyjyRT5-fizz-change-v2-heading-to-pbe. they decided to backload his damage 2 aas then a Q equals one empowered old W (mark) it rewards keeping on the same target therefore does more damage later.

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20191 votes

Funny your link shows me an error...

You do realize that actually made him more bursty? Because his Q counts as an auto reset, so he would auto, w, q auto, (which is quite fluid) while before he would auto, q and wait 1,5 seconds for w mark to get ready. That is not "backloading damage" that is the quite opposite...

Oh to back that statement up see what I found in an old patch note (8.14)...

"The mark-priming mechanic on Fizz's W was unsatisfying, asking players to hold one of their damage tools until later. As an assassin, his role is to lay down damage quickly and get out, which made that wait feel particularly awkward. We're removing the priming mechanic, and bringing back an on-hit buff on the active, but keeping the cooldown reset on kills. The new W still does damage over a longer period of time, but more of that damage is front-loaded so Fizz players can more quickly make like a trident and stab."

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

actually this does backload his damage quite alot before the mark removal I could one shot or almost kill laners now it half shots them. thats how much of a change it became. Frontloaded is when he had his triple damage mark.

at late game it dealt 4.5k damage to a 100 MR target i couldnt get higher then that (without drags or gathering storm).

this is off subject though ill agree with your disagreement.

heres the thing about his he requires a auto then W-aa-Q-aa thats 3 W hits after initial W = one mark hit thats a long time here in comparison with before.

ChillingfrostNov 4, 20191 votes

I can do that in 1 second. Just look at the statement, they directly say that they have given him more frontloaded damage because you don't have to wait on that stupid mark to complete. And 4.5k damage to a 100 mr target alone would only be possible if you had 3,1k AP with lichbane which is impossible without drakes/gathering storm you stupid liar. I can show you the math... I am just going to stop here, because you can't seem to see that your idea doesn't "fix" Darius but actually make him a lot worse...

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i have no reason to lie about my damage thats done, i literally did a full burst with full build no stops no matter what. i remember as well as a krabby patty formula 1st i fizz ult max range walk up to target R attacks them then i W it during the knock up procing lichbane/mark. i use my E damage then aa-Q out with ignite. i did this countless times before mark fizz was removed to exact my damage calculation. a full burst combo of fizz deals (without outside bonuses from gathering/dragon) 4.5k damage. btw i literally named my fizz build "4.5k damage at full build".

again though your free to disagree with my idea. i dont hold it against anyone.

ImTheJuggernautyNov 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

it stacks AD more slowly (say like 3-5 AD or something per stack early) and also numbers will have to be adjusted to increase his low attack speed ratio.

and also said it decays at a rapid rate when not even in champion combat.

its just a passive change i was thinking of not a whole kit rework.

when i say bursty i mean when he hits 5 stacks he gets a massive burst of damage that makes people tilted saying hes a tank/assassin level of damage. i feel this way its more healthier method of him.

Yeah but I don't like it because truly, it changes his entire identity, and half the fun is watching the bleed stacks on your opponent, and of course, the massive AD burst is a huge rush. I'm all for making compensatory buffs and nerfs to make darius a little more skill expressive and competitive against newer champs and competitive in pro play, but I'm not for gutting his identity per se.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i dont mind you disagreeing thats why i said feel free to disagree since your free to put in input on my idea.

im glad your enjoying him though. (i play him sometimes also since its fun playing Chad) sometimes i go Full Chad using full AD items.

ImTheJuggernautyNov 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

it stacks AD more slowly (say like 3-5 AD or something per stack early) and also numbers will have to be adjusted to increase his low attack speed ratio.

and also said it decays at a rapid rate when not even in champion combat.

its just a passive change i was thinking of not a whole kit rework.

when i say bursty i mean when he hits 5 stacks he gets a massive burst of damage that makes people tilted saying hes a tank/assassin level of damage. i feel this way its more healthier method of him.

Also, I think that's an incorrect view of darius. I would say there's a strength triangle to champs, but really there are more than three major areas of strength. Darius has: high damage, but limited access to it, medium CC (W is really short ranged and short duration high powered slow, E is nice, but medium ranged and high CD, and one of the highest CD basic abilities in game at level one), high base stats (except low base MS for a melee, and one of the lowest base AS in game), decent healing (it would be great, except that it only works on champs, and is only on missing HP, is telegraphed, and has many forms of counterplay in a very high damage meta where missing one Q means death, and where even if you land Q a couple times in a fight, it won't be enough to not explode), and he has a nice true damage ult.

Darius is basically a low ranged, highly immobile melee, with medium burst/dps type physical and true damage, decent in combat sustain and chain dunk capability.

Notice: he lacks sustain, and he's not actually tanky. He has high base hp and armor, but zero defensive steroids, shields, or damage % reducers. He lack any form of base mobility enhancement, making him almost entirely reliant on mobility items and sum spells to even exist in the current meta. He also depends on mana and doesn't actually have a high mana pool, which means without triforce he goes oom very easily if he's not careful. His only actual tankiness is afforded from the ability to build a lot of defensive items and still of decent damage (but his damage is noticeably lower if he builds no damage items at all such as TF, BC, or steraks), while POTENTIALLY healing for gob-tons.

Now, that doesn't seem unreasonable at all in proper light, but people like to be biased and say (hurr-durr tankiness and damage shouldn't go together). Well by that flawed reasoning, tankiness and cc shouldn't go together. Tankiness and mobility shouldn't go together. Damage and range shouldn't go together. Damage and mobility shouldn't go together, etc. There are so many combos of strengths and weakness, and darius is actually very well put together in that sense. He is very beatable, but can also be very useful. He has a super fair winrate in most elos, and isn't really OP in any elo. He's been hovering between 48-51% winrate for the last 3-ish years most of the time.

The real problem with darius is that despite those facts, he is awful in pro play. That's why he may need a reducing of power in some areas, in exchange for a new tool or two, because all of these newer champs have WAY too many tools and strengths to cover their own weaknesses. Now I'd normally say that they should be fixed and reduced, but that fact is that trashy riot will never do that. They are permanently moving this game in the direction of "every new rework and new champ is good all the time unless we nerf them into the ground until they are not viable at all."

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i can tell you play him alot :D therefore your passion burns/dedication burns greatly. yes new champs do have too much movesets/free 1 million passives (hyperhole ofc) to protect them from said mistakes.

BBKongNov 4, 20192 votes

I can see why you had this idea but I kinda like the current passive. The counterplay of "stay away if you have stacks on you" means it's easier for champs to take short trades against him or play around him in general, and the bleed is sort of his whole schtick so we can't get rid of that. Plus the whole "instant 5 stacks when you execute" feels more impactful the current way. I still get the idea though.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

so its a meh i like your idea but i prefer the old since it fits his theme?

BBKongNov 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

so its a meh i like your idea but i prefer the old since it fits his theme?

More or less yeah. It's also easier to play around for the enemy imo. Also the old one is probably stronger.

ClaireRedfieldNov 4, 20192 votes

Man I'm still salty they removed Draven's bleed passive leave poor Darius alone.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i said remove or lower bleed since the passive i suggested is actually stronger in one right but less bursty.

PhearBunnyNov 4, 20191 votes

i feel like Darius is completely balanced and should be left alone, thats what i think.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

k thats your opinion here. i dont mind his passive its just a idea i thought about when i woke up.

Romans VI XXIIINov 4, 20191 votes

I have a better idea. Flat out remove the bonus AD at 5 stacks. He didnt need it when they added it and he doesnt need it now. It can be a start at reducing the damage in this game.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

heres the thing about the 5 stacks = bonus ad, the only reason he gets a bf sword or 2 for free is due to extended trading to promote the standpoint of him being a lane bully thats why riot added stacks/high ad ratios to a champ like him to entice threatening damage at any point of the game. the only problem with this is as i said it reduces interaction with said darius player.

Romans VI XXIIINov 4, 20191 votes

heres the thing about the 5 stacks = bonus ad, the only reason he gets a bf sword or 2 for free is due to

Riot giving him it instead of nerfing the current oppressive/high damage dealers at the time. Rather than Nerf the strong champs they buffed the mediocre champs further increasing the over all damage of the game.

He doesn't need to get a FREE BF sword "or 2". He already has a HIGH damaging passive. All giving him FREE MASS AD does is allow him to build nearly pure tank/survival items achieve 5 stacks and then cash out on free kills cause now he has insane survive-ability along with insane DPS/Burst. As once he has 5 stacks there is 0 counter play to it other than RUN THE FUCK AWAY. And It is quite easy for a Darius to get 5 stacks at nearly all points of the game.

Removing the Bonus AD is a step in the right direction. Sure he would be "weak" compared to some other oppressive top laners. But they all need to have their damage reduced to. Reducing damage across the board is what needs to be done.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

i feel yes the damage overall in the game (minus true supports like breum) should be reduced definitely.

Romans VI XXIIINov 4, 20191 votes

I would agree with that, Most "true" supports probably don't need any damage reductions.

Janna Soraka Sona Bard Braum Leona Lulu Morgana Nami Taric Thresh Yuumi Alistar

Some could probably use it, but I personally wouldn't worry about their damage until every other role is reduced, including off-supports like Zyra Velkoz Annie Blitzcrank

ImTheJuggernautyNov 4, 20191 votes

I believe that if anyone else wants to make darius better and more viable, he either needs some form of inherent, but gaited speed buff, or he needs some added utility, in exchange for lowering his bonus ad from 230 down to 200 or something. I'm not really into working the actual numbers right now.

Essentially, he needs like a .5 second burst of speed when landing Q, maybe even just 10-20%, since he literally has to put himself at a further distance to even land it. Or give him like a 1-1.5 second burst of speed upon landing all five stacks, with 50% slow resistance for that time period.

As for utility instead of movement speed, I've always liked the idea that as he builds stacks on an enemy, he actually makes them a little weaker. After imagine the current scenario, in which he makes you bleed gob-tons, but you don't get any weaker. Kind of thematically opposed.

Instead, as he makes his opponents bleed, he should reduce their damage output and movement speed by 1%, then, at 5 stacks and after a 1 second delay, it triples up to 15%. Opponents would still have the traditional counterplay, but darius would gain a slight edge before 5 stacks. But at 5 stacks opponents would have to respect him a LOT more, so they better GTFO before then. It would give potential pro play viability because if teammates helped darius stack, and then if darius flashed or used righteous glory, he could potentially affect 3-5 enemies with this utility debuff when using Q. Being able to provide such a significant debuff to lots of opponents would be super valuable without adding damage or harming darius's identity and gameplay style and keeping his weaknesses intact. It would enhance his identity as someone who grows stronger in a fight as his opponents grow weaker.

If neither of those two things are considered good idea, then just fall back on the idea that many others have proposed before me, which is that darius's Q delay should be reduced by level or by rank up, so that by mid or late game it's instant. Afterall, the Q delay was introduced almost primarily to give opponents counterplay opportunity IN LANE. Not the rest of the dang game when they have plenty of other forms of counterplaying darius, including perma kite and perma CC or simply piling on his immobile behind and bursting him in 2 seconds.

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

my god that sounds even more juggernaut then the current darius ball of stats. you shoulda made a post on this. its great honestly it gives him utility and something the enemy should stay away from.

dontspinbutwinNov 4, 20191 votes

I play Darius quite a bit, and honestly? I can see your stance, but I don't think this is a good change.

First off, Darius is balanced around the fact that its difficult to obtain 5 stacks, unless its a long trade. His fastest combo would be E-AA-W-Q only provides 3 stacks. His AA-W-Q-E-AA is 4 stacks. His AA-W-Q-E-AA-R is 5 stacks, but at the cost of his ult. If Darius is to commit to a long fight, he needs that "BS burst of AD" to be oppressive. Take that damage away and he would struggle to hold the image of juggernaut. This proposed change would cut his power down drastically early game (as noone can have more ad at early levels than darius can), mid game (as Darius's low attack speed would mean he would struggle to gain more than 5 stacks), and late game (as smart teams can abuse darius's low mobility, and kite/burst him down as he tries to approach them).

2, Darius has very few ways to express skill. Hitting 5 stacks is one of them. How will you do it when your options are so limited? Lets say a riven outtrades you, and she has 3 stacks. Do you, with .62 attack speed, stick on her, and try to get 5 stacks, or do you take your losses and back off? Will the "BS burst of AD" be enough to turn the tides, or would you die before then? Also, the change would ruin tons of tricks for Darius. For example, flash Q-enemy death by bleed would disappear, ghost would lost much value on Darius, He would need to build attack speed items (like prework Darius) to optimize his passive, which would in turn make him squishier, etc.

Riot said it themselves when discussing all the champions in League: When you fight Darius, you should expect to lose lane. They want him to be oppressive, because he doesn't have much going for him apart from that. This change would change his image from "unstoppable juggernaut" to "Nonmobile fiora".

xDogMeatxNov 4, 20191 votes

all i said was change the passive where his power budget changes. but ImTheJuggernauty has a better suggestion to preserve his juggernaut status that has utility built into it. im like dang thats great.

VerxintNov 5, 20191 votes

It's supposed to be a sudden power swing, that's the point. 5 stacks = gg is the intended design, if you stop him from getting 5 stacks you can beat him.

With your proposition he would still win almost any fight at 5 stacks but he also would be less pathetically weak without 5 stacks. He's supposed to feel awful when you don't have stacks.