Why is Maokai in such a terrible spot?

RenownedWheat42·Mar 31, 2017·2 votes·975 views

I love . I take the guy into so many different comps, I play him in the rift and in 3s, he's usually my go-to for like, everything. But he's in a shitty spot right now (like 45% win rate) and that's kind of lame.

His damage is good, CC is great, but his mana consumption feels high and often times the damage reduction from Ult doesn't even feel like it's processing. He's good for denying ganks in the early game, but his lane pressure isn't all particularly stellar.

I don't think Maokai needs any sort of rework, but a bit of a buff (nothing huge, maybe lower mana E/Q cost at lower levels?) would probably go a long way for the guy. For the type of champ he is, anything more than "Sit under turret till the creep wave reaches you, then EQ" is way too mana-extensive and dangerous in his early game.

24 Comments

chipndip1Mar 31, 20174 votes

Riot nerfed the FUCK out of his E.

EternalShockMar 31, 20172 votes

doesnt do damage when thrown only after it lands.

"nerfed so hard bro"

his base stats are huge and his mana costs are nonexistant on q please stop.

DolasaurMar 31, 20173 votes

Nonexistent on Q? Before that same patch that nerfed the E, yeah. Not so much now. His win rate went down substantially after those changes, and I personally suspect more of it was from the Q mana cost increase than the E damage removal.

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20172 votes

Your E isn't really your go-to damage dealer, and if it is your zoning is fucking crazy. It takes too long, and is really only good as a ward or for poking people out of bushes.

Mao's Q cost and cooldown were both raised.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMar 31, 20171 votes

no but the splash damage on E allowed him to farm in lanes where he is now punished... it was that that allowed him to stay enough in games with the cs in lane that when he did scale with his items he was still a threat.

the mana change on his Q isnt that awful ...

it was changed before too, it had its cd increased and they nerfed the heal on his passive too prior to the last round of nerfs to him.

5000000000000000Mar 31, 20173 votes

That's like half the damage gone if you're trying to waveclear

chipndip1Mar 31, 20173 votes

You realize they nerfed E's base damage by 33% on the base and 40% on the scaling, right?

I'd say cutting 120 base damage and 40% scaling off a move is "nerfing the fuck out of it".

dolphinosplash24Mar 31, 20171 votes

I dont think Riot want to work to hard on him rn cause hes getting a class rework in the vanguard update along with zac and sejauni

Titanium70Mar 31, 20171 votes

Guess Riot decided his time to shine is over now and he is now to much of a generalist to be strong.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

5000000000000000Mar 31, 20171 votes

He was a good generalist, and he had too much waveclear in competitive.

PermabannedGarenMar 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Maokai needs any sort of rework

I have bad news for you then friend, the champion does need a rework, and is confirmed to be getting one around mid season.

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20171 votes

I saw. I don't think he needs it, though, but that's just me.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMar 31, 20171 votes

mao is due to be one of the big reworks in the tank update... so who knows what riot will do to him...

i kinda wish he was back to what he was on his E just lower his base hp or lower the damage on his W ... if they dont want him to do too much damage.

but part of the issue is the meta kinda shifted too and in top lane you are seeing champs that are a bad match up for him of late.

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20171 votes

He's honestly not bad against most matchups I'm finding top. Yasuo, Talon, Tryn, Fiora, Swain, Vlad, Renekton, Quinn, Teemo are the most common I'm seeing, and when I'm matched up with them as Mao the only way they get ahead is by getting a good gank in.

He's honestly easy to CS with still but it's such a boring, defensive laning phase for him and his pressure is nonexistent. I don't want it to happen, but I guess that's one reason they're going for the rework.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMar 31, 20171 votes

vlad is a bad match up for him.. .due to to vlads regen and dps,

teemo is a skill match up. just as most melees into teemo you wait til you can all in him and make sure you can blow him up

swain is a straight up counter to mao.

yasou is a skill match up... you can out tank him but you have to rush ninja tabs and warden's mail

ren can be punishing due to his early lvl 1-3 dominance

quinn is ranged ad so its egh... she cant kill you but you cant really do alot to her.

tryn,fiora, talon are alil worst for him... talons early damage is broken, fiora can do true damage to you and good vs tanks. and tryn is just annoying with his sustain

a lane that for me as mao is a complete nightmare cuz the jungler dont gank early enough is vs Illaoi

jayce top is a pain cuz of his constant poke and can disengage when you go in with his hammer form.

but as mao in most match ups (pre the last round of nerfs) you could just not fight til you got about lvl 9 and then you could just farm and scale up to be effective in mid/late game even in bad match ups , now with the increased mana cost on his Q and the removal of the damage on the E it makes him way more punished in the early game of laning where he use to be stupid safe...

another thing is in solo q games (non coordinated team play) alot of people dont understand how to play around a champs power spikes and items... regardless of the champ... and mao is a mid game monster ... late game if built a certain way can never die or do tons of damage. i can play him top, jungle, mid and support and can play him ap bruiser, ap damage, full tank. or full utility. i have mained him for the past 3 seasons and love the champ...

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20171 votes

Maokai support is definitely undervalued. He's not the best for the role I know, but his huge amount of CC and free wards on E is just beautiful.

I've taken Maokai everywhere but bot-lane carry as well, and I love the champ more than any other I've played. A lot of the time, people don't know how to play against him, and that makes things easier for you. But then, people don't know how to play WITH him either, since he's not super common anymore, so that makes teamwork considerably more tough, particularly in solo queue.

Drago ZankaruApr 1, 20171 votes

I miss seasons 2-4 untill the mini rework that made his w do hp% damage and took a good 100 range off it. i honestly think if they would have left his w alone and just put in the ult change would have been enough of a buff in the rework they gave him. I pretty much stopped playing league other that urf and a couple other rgm because maokai was reworked then constantly nerfed every time he gets into pro play cause boring to watch.

-Salty a** ex maokai main lol

oSEXYPLATYPUSoApr 1, 20171 votes

i feel your pain... i like the rework on his ult... i hated the old one thatyou just placed in a spot and played around it...

i dont remember the range nerf on his W

but i really didnt start to play him til that rework. that being said and all the things discussed here i can still do well on him not a while ago i had a game 12-4-18 game on him i dont know if it was just before the rework on the E though. i played him the other night vs a yasou and flat out dominated yasou top lane... but wasnt enough cuz mid and bot lane fed their asses off.

but ya know how that goes lol

fuffychanMar 31, 20171 votes

Builds 4000 hp and 500 armor

Still 1 shots ppl with zero counterplay

"in a terrible spot"

Lol

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20172 votes

Zero counterplay on Maokai? Dude has to get close as fuck to W and Q. Walking into E is your own fault with how telegraphed, slow, and obvious it is. R is a massive, worthless mana drain if people just run. Anyone with powerful autos can deny his passive heal in 1v1.

Maokai is easy to kite and get away from, and doesn't one-shot when building no damage. I dunno what you're talking about.

fuffychanMar 31, 20171 votes

His W is the same range as any ADCs auto attack. So either you dont attack him at all (lol) or you get in range to attack him, then he presses W a point and click dash and stun that you cant even flash away from (zero counterplay). And if when he lands it then he lands all his other skills because hey infinite knockups and slows and other bullshit. Zero counterplay. Then his W is already back up again.

RenownedWheat42Mar 31, 20172 votes

Maokai's W has been busted all season. Dashes have displaced it from NUMEROUS champs on many occasions so it isn't even nearly as useful as it SHOULD be. Also, yes, his CC is decent, but he has no knockup, and for how limited he is in range and mobility and the fact that he's a CC-heavy tank, it makes sense.

Q: Knockback + slow W: Snare E: Slow

If you get someone with a W for a WQE/WEQ + auto combo (with or without R) that is the single moment Maokai will be able to burst, and it utilizes his ENTIRE kit to do so. Meanwhile some folks can chunk him down no problem with only one skill + autos. And no, W isn't already back up again IMMEDIATELY after the full combo. It'll take a few seconds, and in that time you can shred him.

Take anyone else with CC, and you can destroy Maokai 1v1 from kiting alone. And if they can't kite him, they can easily burst him down unless he's REALLY lucky. Full-Tank Mao won't beat full AD Yas 1v1.

If Maokai was nearly as powerful as you make him sound, he wouldn't have a staggering 45% win rate.

fuffychanApr 1, 20171 votes