Riot needs to stop overbuffing champions just because they aren’t “meta”

KnifeCat·Aug 16, 2018·5 votes·1,211 views

This new habit of slowly overbuffing champs over numerous patches (because they aren’t Meta) is really dumb.
Look at Garen. This guy is a monstrosity right now. His villain mechanic is incredibly unfun to play against. You basically get punished for trying to carry the game. once that mark is on you, he can be 0-4 and a level down but he will almost instantly delete you with q/ult, especially if he has tri force. Garen has been getting buff after buff after buff every few patches for like a year now ..

Udyr and Zed have also gotten similar treatment. Zed can now be 1-9, and miss almost everything and still oneshot you (yes that exact scenario did happen to me recently). Meanwhile Udyr’s level 2/3 is probably more insane than Talon’s.. No body plays Udyr but he’s honestly strong as fuck.

37 Comments

JamareeAug 16, 20183 votes

Why are you letting a 0/4 Garen engage on you freely?

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why are you letting a 0/4 Garen engage on you freely?

Cause his Q + W + item 3053 allow him to stuck on his target without any form of cc or slow stopping him. Gosh you people really don't understand how tenacity is so strong special added with his damage reduction from his W.

JamareeAug 16, 20183 votes

That isn't what he said though, he said 0/4 with Tri Force. Yes, if you buy literally only move speed items, in a dream world, Garen will race around the map, silencing and cutting people down with glee. However, since this isn't LoL dream land and Garens don't buy pure MS (except at low elo, where every player who complains about him resides, I wonder if that is a coincidence, nah, it is probably fine.) because they get blown in two trying to walk into a team of five people, and if not blown in two, then CCed down and kept away, because his Q only cleanses current slows...and that is it, so stuns, snares, another slow tend to stop him from doing something.

Seriously though, I can't be the only one who notices that the only people who complain about Garen being dumb or too strong ALL happen to be low gold and below right....right?

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That isn't what he said though, he said 0/4 with Tri Force. Yes, if you buy literally only move speed items, in a dream world, Garen will race around the map, silencing and cutting people down with glee. However, since this isn't LoL dream land and Garens don't buy pure MS (except at low elo, where every player who complains about him resides, I wonder if that is a coincidence, nah, it is probably fine.) because they get blown in two trying to walk into a team of five people, and if not blown in two, then CCed down and kept away, because his Q only cleanses current slows...and that is it, so stuns, snares, another slow tend to stop him from doing something.

Seriously though, I can't be the only one who notices that the only people who complain about Garen being dumb or too strong ALL happen to be low gold and below right....right?

"Low elo " that what the riot team leader said, that they going to nerf him for the low elo. It not dumb, that why they want to nerf him at first place cause low elo people use garen and yorick to stomp a bit higher elo and same elo.

JamareeAug 16, 20184 votes

Why should we balance around those players though, they don't understand balance in the slightest and always use the best case scenarios for champions. Seriously, every low elo players complaints about a champion look like this:

Whine about a champion's strength Fail to note the mistakes that lead to them getting killed Lie about what really happened Ignore any and all suggestions about beating said champion NEVER mention a single one of the champion's flaws, which everyone champion DOES have Circlejerk QQ

Oh, and 99% of the time, said players have NEVER played the champion they are complaining about.

Why should we take balance ideas from players like this, because they are the majority, that is how the game got to the current state, when does it end?

dunder killAug 16, 20181 votes

Bruh. Listen. "Zed can now be 1-9, and miss almost everything and still oneshot". This is ~~complete and utter horseshit. So laughably fucking stupid that anyone who actually believes it qualifies for disability~~ 100% accurate and actually happens.

JamareeAug 16, 20181 votes

What are you talking about, I just spaced poorly, have no armor at all, am a naturally squishy champion, I shouldn't have to play well at all, I should be able to take no damage while building zero defenses and being squishy.

dunder killAug 16, 20181 votes

Now you're getting it. If I go 2/0 in lane then my lane opponent should just be removed from the game automatically tbh

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why should we balance around those players though, they don't understand balance in the slightest and always use the best case scenarios for champions. Seriously, every low elo players complaints about a champion look like this:

Whine about a champion's strength Fail to note the mistakes that lead to them getting killed Lie about what really happened Ignore any and all suggestions about beating said champion NEVER mention a single one of the champion's flaws, which everyone champion DOES have Circlejerk QQ

Oh, and 99% of the time, said players have NEVER played the champion they are complaining about.

Why should we take balance ideas from players like this, because they are the majority, that is how the game got to the current state, when does it end?

Cause if you like it or not, Garen is a problem right now and he is a binary champion that can make comeback in game with his true damage villain thing. And he one of the simplest champions in this game mean he a good pick for low elo without any direct counter which sucks for them, people in high was able to deal with MonkeyKing but riot just gutted him for the love of low elo as well. So why not the same happen to garen ?

as MonkeyKing main, he had many easy weaknes that no one in low elo able to use against him including his weak laning and jungling he not able to fight against tankers and juggernauts a good warding against him easy to make him not able to move around freely since he doesn't have permanent hide like Eve neither he able to R on you from out no where like Noc. Yet riot decide to nerf him to ground cause low elo people can't do any of that, welcome to balance team. Instead of fixing problem of champions they nerf without thinking.

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Cause if you like it or not, Garen is a problem right now

garen is always a problem for lower elo.

champions like Riven or Azir that are mechanically very difficult to play are going to lose more when played by unskilled players than champions with a low skill floor.

this is logical, not problematic.

and thats all there is to it. this is a problem of low elo players that they have to deal with by getting better at the game. he is not a problem for the game or an unhealthy champion.

if its not garen, its darius, if its not darius, its yi. if its not yi, its renekton or nasus. amumu is a god in low elo, when hes usually trash at high mmr, since he is simple to pick up and has high impact in fights.

you can go down the entire list of champions, and those with a low skill floor will always perform best at low elos. this is not a problem, but a result of the strategic and mechanical inexperience of players down there.

an inexperienced player will perform better on a simple champion than a mechanically complex champion. this is why you dont buff or nerf champions around low mmr but let people figure out the game by themselves.

dunder killAug 16, 20181 votes

You forgot Monkey King in your low tier smashers that are trash in high ELO list

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You forgot Monkey King in your low tier smashers that are trash in high ELO list

i didnt want to list all of them, but ye.

you just dont balance around low elo, because its impossible. individual strategic and mechanical mistakes of these players outshadow the subtle power difference in champions way too much.

if you start balancing the game around low mmr, you cant balance it for high mmr and competitive.

its completely backwards aswell. if someone sucks at playing football in his backard, you dont change the rules of the game or the shape of the ball for everyone, including major league and world championship for those guys who are still learning to kick it into the right direction.

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:06:45.014+0000)

garen is always a problem for lower elo.

champions like or that are mechanically very difficult to play are going to lose more when played by unskilled players than champions with a low skill floor.

this is logical, not problematic.

and thats all there is to it. this is a problem of low elo players that they have to deal with by getting better at the game. he is not a problem for the game or an unhealthy champion.

if its not garen, its darius, if its not darius, its yi. if its not yi, its renekton or nasus. amumu is a god in low elo, when hes usually trash at high mmr, since he is simple to pick up and has high impact in fights.

you can go down the entire list of champions, and those with a low skill floor will always perform best at low elos. this is not a problem, but a result of the strategic and mechanical inexperience of players down there.

an inexperienced player will perform better on a simple champion than a mechanically complex champion. this is why you dont buff or nerf champions around low mmr.

Again it the logic of the balance team not mine, that what happen to my Wukong and that what will happen to every outdated meta champion sooner or later. I will give you little example why it gamebalance problem, you got Urgot vs Garen in all stages of game as long as it 1v1 urgot got the upper hand over garen but in teamfights garen got the upper hand no matter what cause the stupid tenacity items make him easy to escape cc while urgot can't get tenacity and get slowed by his W which make him so weak to cc. What the game logic here to balance such stuff, to put counter to champions ? Right they buff garen and they leave urgot in gutted status without any power up for the lack of tenacity of item 3053 . If they solved such problems for many garen counter champions, garen won't be a much of problem but nah we got to nerf champion cause we don't want to balance other champions.

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Again it the logic of the balance team not mine, that what happen to my Wukong and that what will happen to every outdated meta champion sooner or later. I will give you little example why it gamebalance problem, you got vs in all stages of game as long as it 1v1 urgot got the upper hand over garen but in teamfights garen got the upper hand no matter what cause the stupid tenacity items make him easy to escape cc while urgot can't get tenacity and get slowed by his W which make him so weak to cc. What the game logic here to balance such stuff, to put counter to champions ? Right they buff garen and they leave urgot in gutted status without any power up for the lack of tenacity of . If they solved such problems for many garen counter champions, garen won't be a much of problem but nah we got to nerf champion cause we don't want to balance other champions.

in your example, urgot and garen are actually balanced towards each other.

the garen would focus on teamfighting, the urgot would try to get him into a 1v1 by splitpushing.

different strategies exist.

its actually the only way to balance these champions to give them different strengths. you probably cant make both of them equally strong at teamfighting and 1v1 at the same time.

so one champion being better at 1v1 and one champion being better at teamfighting gives them both options to win a game.

by the way, if people dont build stupid as shit teamcomps against garen, and have enchanter supports and a tank in their team to be able to peel him, garen isnt actually good in teamfights. he was just good in teamfights in a meta, where teams consisted of one skirmisher on top lane, 3 assassins mid, jungle and support, and a marksman.

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:23:50.703+0000)

in your example, urgot and garen are actually balanced towards each other.

the garen would focus on teamfighting, the urgot would try to get him into a 1v1 by splitpushing.

different strategies exist.

its actually the only way to balance these champions to give them different strengths. you probably cant make both of them equally strong at teamfighting and 1v1 at the same time.

so one champion being better at 1v1 and one champion being better at teamfighting gives them both options to win a game.

by the way, if people dont build stupid as shit teamcomps against garen, and have enchanter supports and a tank in their team to be able to peel him, garen isnt actually good in teamfights. he was just good in teamfights in a meta, where teams consisted of one skirmisher on top lane, 3 assassins mid, jungle and support, and a marksman.

Dude garen against urgot with good team combo of peeling and cc , mostly garen going to get drilled before he say demacia even. I always do that to garen, the only games i lost to garen is because i have a stupid assassin mid laner or some pyke as support or hell even some weak mage.

JamareeAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Cause if you like it or not, Garen is a problem right now and he is a binary champion that can make comeback in game with his true damage villain thing. And he one of the simplest champions in this game mean he a good pick for low elo without any direct counter which sucks for them, people in high was able to deal with but riot just gutted him for the love of low elo as well. So why not the same happen to garen ?

Because he has always been a problem at low elo, no amount of nerfs is going to make him NOT a problem at low elo, because low elo players are once again bad and are unable and/or unwilling to improve enough to beat such a binary champion. That binary part of his kit perfectly showcases his flaws, the exact same flaws he had for the nine years prior when he was considered a shit champion mind you still apply to this very day. Also, what is this no direct counter bullshit? His direct counters are ranged mobile champions, ie, the exact same champions that beat him 9 years ago. Teemo, Kayle, Vlad, Kennen, Gnar all stomp his teeth in and dismantle his kit to the point where you can literally stop him from farming or doing damage.

In fact, here is a video of me beating a Garen so hard he did 24 damage...over an entire game.

Game starts at 2:19:00 Can see damage at 2:35:00

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/278250395

as main, he had many easy weaknes that no one in low elo able to use against him including his weak laning and jungling he not able to fight against tankers and juggernauts a good warding against him easy to make him not able to move around freely since he doesn't have permanent hide like Eve neither he able to R on you from out no where like Noc. Yet riot decide to nerf him to ground cause low elo people can't do any of that, welcome to balance team. Instead of fixing problem of champions they nerf without thinking.

So you are upset that they do this to your champion...but want them to do this to other champions...and don't see how this is a vicious cycle...at all do you?

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So you are upset that they do this to your champion...but want them to do this to other champions...and don't see how this is a vicious cycle...at all do you?

I'm upset and just saying they will do the same to every champion that got binary kit and stomp low elo, i didn't say i want them to do that or that. If you scroll through the comments you will see that i clearly said instead of stupid nerfing champions at low elo why not fix their counter and make them viable.

JamareeAug 16, 20181 votes

Their counters are viable, they didn't stop being viable, people especially at low elo are sheep and don't know how to NOT follow the meta.

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Their counters are viable, they didn't stop being viable, people especially at low elo are sheep and don't know how to NOT follow the meta.

Nah nah i will tell you why they say at low elo or in any elo in general. For example i tell people Malzahar Annie etc is good counter to Yasuo, Zed, assassins in general why not play them ? Their answer cause they too boring, i would rather lose to play boring champion and win. That legit was their answer and it tilting me.

JamareeAug 16, 20181 votes

See exactly why we should ignore these players when it comes to balancing at ALL?

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

See exactly why we should ignore these players when it comes to balancing at ALL?

Honestly i have been playing Malzahar alot lately, yes his early game is super weak due to mana change but god after he hit his 3 items spike it take one ignite + r + e = enemy is dead no matter how they feed. but ofcourse sitting back, playing safe and scaling is boring for people, even when playing safe is easy with easy wave clear champion but nah.

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because he has always been a problem at low elo, no amount of nerfs is going to make him NOT a problem at low elo, because low elo players are once again bad and are unable and/or unwilling to improve enough to beat such a binary champion. That binary part of his kit perfectly showcases his flaws, the exact same flaws he had for the nine years prior when he was considered a shit champion mind you still apply to this very day. Also, what is this no direct counter bullshit? His direct counters are ranged mobile champions, ie, the exact same champions that beat him 9 years ago. Teemo, Kayle, Vlad, Kennen, Gnar all stomp his teeth in and dismantle his kit to the point where you can literally stop him from farming or doing damage.

In fact, here is a video of me beating a Garen so hard he did 24 damage...over an entire game.

Game starts at 2:19:00 Can see damage at 2:35:00

Dude i know what his counters, i'm urgot, illaoi and yorick main i know his counter the back of my heart cause i always win lane against Garen it the problem of my low gold elo players who never respect garen missing ping or that if he mark on them to step back what is worst if they just leave my side and just try to force fight on garen.

JamareeAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dude i know what his counters, i'm urgot, illaoi and yorick main i know his counter the back of my heart cause i always win lane against Garen it the problem of my low gold elo players who never respect garen missing ping or that if he mark on them to step back what is worst if they just leave my side and just try to force fight on garen.

Exactly, hence why their input shouldn't mean anything. They aren't good.

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, hence why their input shouldn't mean anything. They aren't good.

Look i will agree on that as long as riot doesn't balance around lcs as well, cause it seem like riot can\t find middle ground either low elo or pro lcs plays which is mostly based on 5 premade team work. So yah it seem hard to balance around high gold 4-d1 for the game somehow.

rawiazam1Aug 16, 20183 votes

riot wants to get "rid" of the high damage meta yet instead of nerfing the high damage, they buff the champions to get to a certain standart. which makes them high damage

dunder killAug 16, 20183 votes

Zed can now be 1-9, and miss almost everything and still oneshot you

Jesus christ what a load of absolute horseshit. I know the anti-Zed circlejerk is dumb as fuck to begin with but this is getting ridiculous

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20183 votes

garen dropped to 47% winrate when 8.16 hit.

most sites havent updated yet.

and weak champions deserve buffs. just because he was strong for 3 weeks, because the meta was a bullshit 1 shot fiesta of assassins and lethality marksmen, where he thrives because you cant just 1 shot a garen, doesnt mean he is a problem.

during that entire time, even when he was strong in the meta, he was a fair and balanced champion. its just that people built idiotic teamcomps and item builds, because they used to work when there wasnt a garen in the game.

its the same back when riot overbuffed the shit out of marksmen in season 6 and season 7 and rammus and malphite suddenly shot up in winrate and became meta.

VeraskaAug 16, 20183 votes

Pull up the vod of the 1/9 zed landing nothing and you exploding out of thin air next to him i wanna see the variables

dunder killAug 16, 20181 votes

I gotchu

http://gph.is/1PwtL2Q

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20182 votes

DrMundo

S0kaXAug 16, 20182 votes

You literally can't kill this guy unless you take all his hp in the blink of an eye

rawiazam1Aug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You literally can't kill this guy unless you take all his hp in the blink of an eye

Evelynn

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

His R + Spirit outheal her burst damage, don't worry.

rawiazam1Aug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

His R + Spirit outheal her burst damage, don't worry.

her w lasts 2.5 secs, which is enough for her and her team to burst him without him being able to ult since it's not like trynda's ult

ValiantKillerAug 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

her w lasts 2.5 secs, which is enough for her and her team to burst him without him being able to ult since it's not like trynda's ult

Ohh team, thought you talking about her "alone " doing that but yes as team you can do that . That why i mostly play with Urgot against him, cause the drill 25% threat to just kill him at instance.

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This new habit of slowly overbuffing champs over numerous patches (because they aren’t Meta) is really dumb.
Look at Garen. This guy is a monstrosity right now. His villain mechanic is incredibly unfun to play against. You basically get punished for trying to carry the game. once that mark is on you, he can be 0-4 and a level down but he will almost instantly delete you with q/ult, especially if he has tri force. Garen has been getting buff after buff after buff every few patches for like a year now ..

Udyr and Zed have also gotten similar treatment. Zed can now be 1-9, and miss almost everything and still oneshot you (yes that exact scenario did happen to me recently). Meanwhile Udyr’s level 2/3 is probably more insane than Talon’s.. No body plays Udyr but he’s honestly strong as fuck.

youre maining assassins.

any strong fighter is going to be unfun to play against for you, because fighters tend to beat assassins. especially juggernauts that cant just easily get bursted down.

its not like Rengar is a particularly fun champion to play against in general.