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Dear Riot, when and why Nautilus went downhill and returning him to the jungle

TheSingularity··2 votes·1,231 views

I'm back at it again. Another day, another thread about trying to get naut back into his original role, the jungle. Most notoriously throughout seasons 5, 6 and 7 (to a lesser degree than 5 and 6) Nautilus has been a laning powerhouse as a support and top laner, the latter placing him in the spotlight as a substantial balance issue. While he rose to power in lane, he lost his own influence over his ability to jungle effectively to the point at which he's now a handicap, with a pick rate to boot (practically non existent in this position).

Nautilus hasn't been reworked into another position, item changes haven't forced him into lane and until his W base health nerf which was followed by a downpour of E nerfs, he was a decent jungler. Stat adjustments over along period of time accompanied by the publicity pro play offered (people saw him top/support and not jungle and utilised him as such) have made him nothing more than a paper weight to stop towers from floating away.

So, I'm going to display what has actually been changed, where I think everything went wrong and what should be done to fix it.

Here's a run down on nautilus' overall changes since I started in season 3. The first changes I witnessed were in pre season 4 to his staggering blow. B=buff N=nerf P=power reallocation or neutral

First his stat changes, these are ascending from oldest to newest changes.

  1. Armor increased to 20 from 16 B
  2. Armor growth increased to 3.75 from 3.25 B
  3. Mana increased to 334 from 284 Mana growth reduced to 47 from 50 P
  4. Mana regeneration growth reduced to 0.5 from 0.7. N

.

Now his spells:

Staggering Blow Root on-target cooldown reduced to 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds from 9 at all levels B Root duration increased to 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 from 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 B

Dredge Line Was nerfed a long while back and was given the ability to interact with player made terrain. B Hasn't been touched since I started playing

Titan's Wrath Cooldown reduced to 18 seconds at all ranks from 22 / 21 / 20 / 19 / 18 B Damage reduced to 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 from 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 N
Now it gets a little messy so here are all his changes to the HP ratio and the flat HP bonus, in chronological order

  1. Shield health ratio increased to (+ 15% bonus health) from 10 B
  2. Shield reduced to 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 from 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 Shield health ratio changed to (+ 7 / 9.5 / 12 / 14.5 / 17% maximum health) from (+ 15% bonus health) N [I view this a an overall nerf due to how hard it hit his clear]
  3. Shield health ratio increased to (+ 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 17% maximum health) from 7 / 9.5 / 12 / 14.5 / 17 B

Riptide AP ratio reduced to (+ 30% AP) from (+ 50% AP) Slow duration reduced to 1.5 seconds from 2 Cooldown reduced to 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 seconds from 10 at all ranks Cost reduced to 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 from 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 Overall these are neutral These changes occurred during the same patch his W dmg was reduced. The goal to shift power from his W into his E to aid jungle clears. This back fired as you will see with the next list of changes. Damage reduced to 55 / 85 / 115 / 145 / 175 from 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 N Maximum damage reduced to 110 / 170 / 230 / 290 / 350 from 120 / 190 / 260 / 330 / 400 N Mana cost increased to 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 from 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80. N Depth Charge NEW EFFECT: Secondary targets are stunned for 1 / 1.5 / 2 seconds Displacement duration increased to 1 second from 0.5

There's one thing I noticed during my years of nautilus, he only started becoming a prominent force as a laner in pro play AFTER he had his W health stats adjusted and some of the power of his W shoved into his E. In chronological order:

  1. Shield reduced to 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 from 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 Shield health ratio changed to (+ 7 / 9.5 / 12 / 14.5 / 17% maximum health) from (+ 15% bonus health)
  2. The cooldown, cost and slow duration was buffed (ap ratio nerf) and his W lost dmg but gained a bigger HP ratio in that patch.

These changes turned nautilus into a laning powerhouse due to his newfound strong and spammable wave clear in his E. It weakened the health of his jungle clears as he couldn't get as many W autos off before the shield popped, and his E damage was nerfed. While E got a shorter CD, since it deals less damage for every additional wave that hits the same target, it's less than ideal for taking out red/blue/gromp, especially now that the little monsters are gone (splash is less valuable for buff camps). Add in how quickly red/raptor/krug pops his shield and the 2 "AOE focused camps" aren't so friendly to this AOE champion.

Unfortunately fixing Nautilus is difficult. As buffing anything directly buffs his lane performance, especially with courage of the colossus in the game. So Imma try and directly buff his jungle clear health significantly (so he has enough health to gank after a full clear without having to recall) as well as his single target damage. The risk here is mostly in relation to his lane performance as these are direct early game stat buffs. However by placing it in his shield (something which has a larger mana cost than E, can be waited out or outright smashed through) it's a far better solution that buffing anything else in his kit (buffing passive Q and ult damage would turn him into a single target lock down burst champ, kinda like lissandra)

So my proposed changes are as follows ("suggestions" are not intended to go along with the whole package):

Stats: Mana regeneration growth increased to 0.6 from 0.5

Staggering blows: Unchanged. But I do have a suggestion to buff it's damage a little. Since his hook is tied in to his armour, let that stat add strength. Dmg= base damage per level+ percentage of BONUS armour. Do note I'm not proposing this as an addition. Just something that I thought of in the heat of the moment

Dredge line: Hit box fixed; the range indicator is now more accurate as is the animation so less "lucky" hooks occur with its breathing room (you can catch people that are appear barely out of range with it). Or nerf the range to match the visual. IDC which one. It feels far less satisfying seeing my chain stretch to meet a target like a blitzcrank hook. Edit: suggestion "when nautilus uses Q on terrain, its cooldown it reduced by 3 / 4 / 5 seconds at spell ranks 1 / 3 / 5. Encourages Q use to get around his jungle faster.

Titans Wrath: Shield increased from 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 to 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 Shield health ratio increased to 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18% from 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 17% Damage increased to 40 / 50 / 60 / 75 / 90 from 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70

Riptide: This spell will remain unchanged. It was clearly a problem and as long as only one spell is directly touched, it's pretty darn obvious what's wrong should he end up too strong.

Depth Charge: Stats unchanged Adjust its visual appearance to better match its hit box.

Reasoning where applicable: Stats: While item 1039 provides some mana regen, it simply isn't enough once blue buff expires as all he's left with are autos, which given are the weakest of any tank jungler but Sejuani both early and late isn't a good spot to be in.

Titans wrath: With the recent reductions in the amount of HP available, the ratio buff is compensation for the lack of his core stat. The base buff is a partial revert of the original stat changes however not as much as the old (100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300), because he'd simply have too much shield too early. The damage buff is to compensate for the drastic reduction in damage his E received and these number basically revert the damage changes it got. This provides him with more reliable single target damage to better handle the buff camps.

Dredge line and depth charge: Simply QoL suggestions for both the nautilus and his opponents across all positions.

With these changes, naut still has a slow ish clear speed due to his base movement speed, attack speed, weak dragon/herald control and one of the lowest base and scaling AD aspects of any tank in the game. He then retains his end game weakness as his kit basically forces him to invest in HP making item 3036 item 3151 item 3153 just as valuable in shredding him as ever. He then has a blockable gap closer and horrid tower taking potential.

These changes likely aren't perfect. But he had stronger stats back then, stronger stats than what I'm proposing and tanks were far lower on the food chain than they are now. If he could jungle without being an obscenely overpowered lane bully with higher stats back then, he should be able to do the same now with slightly weaker stats.

To anyone who reads, thanks for your resilience in reading this wall of text and i'd love any constructive feedback anyone has to offer.

4 Comments

DJ Hatsune Miku2 votes

Well well, a thread about my boy Nautilus. I've had a lot of mixed feelings about how he's changed in terms of role but I still jungle and support him no matter what. That being said getting him back in the jungle is a very difficult prospect. I'll just rattle off a few things about this and that that go along with what you've proposed.

First of all, don't touch Q hitbox. I, and many Nautilus mains like myself, have this thing down to a science. As silly as the phantom hooks are if you adjust it it will lower his power level and he already has the hardest hook in the game to hit because of how fat it is. I understand the reasoning but just... Do me a solid here lol.

The main issue with him currently is basically a result of a lot of parts that all came together to make Nautilus a truly terrifying titan. When his W was strong he was able to clear well, gank extremely well, and then get ahead and turn into a duelist that could fight people like Vi despite being the most pure tank in the game, in my opinion. So, naturally, that's not good.. So we gotta nerf his W. But then he sucks, so why not buff his E?

Well then buffing E gets you where we are now. He's got poke, waveclear, and CC all in one move and that's just... Obnoxious. I genuinely dislike "Max E" Nautilus because it's not fun. It's boring. There's no skill ceiling to it like there is with animation locking with his W. Being able to squeeze out extra hits due to animation lock is one of the satisfying parts of learning Nautilus.

Without a doubt his W is the key to returning him to the jungle. Nerfing E's damage while putting that back into W fits Nautilus' design philosophy of "IF he's doing his job he does no damage but if you are ignoring him he will hurt you, a lot." Despite being so huge and imposing the fact Nautilus hits like a wet noodle is actually kind of disappointing. It makes sense from a design point of view, but it's still kinda disappointing. W max/focus Nautilus also feels the best for the player. Having W up makes you FEEL like you're really laying into your opponents and it's very satisfying.

So what do we do? I think increasing the damage but decreasing the shield is the sort of path that should be taking. Making it strong enough early to not get chewed through instantly is important. Probably a case of high base but lower scaling. With his mid/late game shield being not huge it's easier for it to be removed in dueling or skirmishing situations which limits his ability to be an oppressively strong duelist while also being a huge CC bot once he's ahead. Increasing the damage on W also makes him much better at clearing. With the damage in W his laning is weakened because autoattacking gives you minion aggro, so your shield disappears real fast.

His W has always been his bread and butter so returning that to glory is a no brainer. E is just... Not the kind of ability that should have strong damage in it because of it being effectively an unavoidable lane wide move that rips through everything. Besides even when he was among the top tier junglers he was never quite THE BEST due to his lack of % health. I think a small damage nerf mid/late to his W was all that he needed to be considered "Balanced" but small nerfs aren't a common occurrence.

Plus like.. I dunno.. Maybe I'm bias but Nautilus being a good jungler doesn't feel like a bad thing to me. He's the least damaging tank that relies heavily on his team to capitalize on his strengths. That's the sort of design I want to be considered desirable rather than % health dash city junglers that are currently present.

TheSingularity1 votes

Firstly what time is it in America right now? I swear I always make these when people over there r sleeping.

He's the least damaging tank that relies heavily on his team to capitalize on his strengths. That's the sort of design I want to be considered desirable rather than % health dash city junglers that are currently present.

This a thousand times over. I love him because it really is all up to you but not in a way that places you under pressure (like picking a hyper carry who is expected to do so). Getting teams fed and bending them to my will cos they'd love me so much. Was the most enjoyable plan I've ever had the pleasure of doing in this game. But now it's so hard.

Him being a good jungler isn't bad at all. You've got the portrait showing you've been around longer than I have, through naut's highs and lows. The jungle was his home, he actually struggled in lane because his W was so loaded and E so weak. He was that jungler that nearly no one picked.

One thing I forgot about were item changes: I've been nagging to get quill coat back forever for the sunfire+barbs combo but doubt it'd happen. Mobies more $$, homeguard can't be bought early, locket is sub optimal, banner sub optimal, randuins a shadow of its former self, warmogs health reduction. These also contribute to his current state

So what do we do? I think increasing the damage but decreasing the shield is the sort of path that should be taking. Making it strong enough early to not get chewed through instantly is important. Probably a case of high base but lower scaling.

You did lose me a bit here but then cleared up after. I don't think shield size is going to be much of an issue unless it's over buffed. Simply because it wasn't a problem in season 3 and 4 where it'd get pretty dam huge (hell having a just over 800 HP shield was the norm for a late game nautilus back then) and now it'd be huge with allot more damage and health shred in the game.

Despite the Q change that you disagree with, what's your thoughts on the rest of it? Too much power? Is the ult animation worth looking into? Doesn't give him enough power? .

.

From one nauty person to another, would you be kind enough to give a strugglin naut pleb main a helpen hand? What's you general complete build/build order? Is frozen heart worth it as 2nd item? (it always feels like a weak investment) What do u run rune/mastery wise? What's your usual jungle clear path? What camps do you outright ignore?

I've tried so many different rune/mastery combos but he's always lacking in a way that is easily exploitable in this meta (not being a Swiss army knife)

  1. Windspeakers ferocity
  2. Windspeakers resolve
  3. Stoneborne cunning
  4. Stoneborne ferocity
  5. CoC cunning
  6. CoC ferocity All were tested with the offensive/utility options if the cunning tree was involved (so add in 4 more combos)
  • AS reds, armour yellow/brown, MR blue
  • AS reds, armour yellow/brown, AP blue
  • AS reds, armour yellow/brown, AS blue
  • AS reds, armour yellow, MR blue, MS brown
  • AS reds, armour yellow, MR blue, HP brown
  • AS reds, armour yellow, AP blue, AP brown
  • AS reds, armour yellow, AP blue, Mpen brown
  • AS reds, armour yellow, AP blue, AS brown
  • AS reds, armour yellow, AS blue, AS brown
  • Mpen reds, armour yellows, AP blues, AP browns

All tried in every possible combination but he's always lacking something. He isn't fat enough early/fast enough, clears too slow, always squishy compared to other champs and the list goes on. So far windspeakers resolve with AS, armour, MR and more armour (red, yellow, blue, brown) has given the healthiest clear but he's then so squish against champs and the keystone is wasted without locket. Am I over complicating the issue here?

DJ Hatsune Miku1 votes

I think it was around 2:30-3am when I posted this. I'm a terribly night owl lol.

On the topic of the shield comment, it was mostly that because of how it was before he could get ahead and in many situations, even vs someone like VI with consistent % damage in duels, you simply couldn't break through his massive shield fast enough for it not to be nearly up again when you did. While there's a lot of % health running around unless it's %true it's reducible and if someone is only smacking you for 8% of like 1400 hp (Since I'm pretty sure shields don't count towards the % health calculation, could be wrong...) they're only doing 112 damage before your 35-40% armor kicks in... Which is like 73 damage. So you have a shield that's ~250 hp to break through at current value. The fact he lost 30 damage a swing at rank 5 was kinda crazy though. Like his damage was pretty potent but it was more so because he could get a huge shield fast, while before when it was a flat 15% bonus HP and a large base the shield had bad scaling I think with all the health values they could explore bonus HP% with a decent base again as a means of making his early clear safer. It could make his late game survivability worse but a small damage buff on top of it could make him better at clearing the jungle without being a crazy duelist if he's ahead.

I also like the mobility changes for early game clearing but it could possibly make him too fast or make it so he's too mobile if you can keep hitting terrain. Of course trading your engage tool for movement is a meaningful trade-off so maybe it's not actually so bad. I never really had much issue with the animations as they are but I know that they might be a bit antiquated. As long as they're just animation updates rather than subtle nerfs that is. . . .

And shucks man I actually can't say I've played League all that much as of late cause last Season was fairly... Unfun for me. I very rarely have a set build because outside of getting the warding jungle item I basically just built what I thought we needed at the time. That being said I have kinda been buying Righteous Glory first because I want to tailor my build to be a support tank rather than an unkillable juggernaut. I usually get Frozen Heart third if the enemy team is heavy on AD but most often I'll go jungle item>Glory>Legion item (Most often Locket) and then tailor my build from there.

Typically I ran AS reds, armor yellow, mr/level blues, and MS quint. Just gotta accept that Nautilus is gunna get bullied pretty hard in the jungle and tailor him just enough to get through the first clear without dying then set him up to be a gank machine afterwards. My CS is usually very low on Naut cause I spend most of my time just ganking everyone and their mother lol. I generally roll with Courage but Grasp is also not bad cause it lets you add a little extra damage. Green Father's is also pretty rad.

Clearing can be made easier by managing your attack moves. As you are probably aware when Naut attacks with his shield up his attack animation is locked into a wide swing with the anchor. If you move during it it's canceled, but if you swing and have the "Anchor stuck" animation when your shield breaks he'll still do the "Swing back onto shoulder" attack which applies the damage splash still. Using this can make your clear just a little bit healthier and it's one of the quirks about Naut I love. That combined with the auto attack reset lets you get some fairly decent damage out if you're mindful of all the little quirks of his clear.

Nautoday1 votes

This is a lot of TLDR posts, but I agree with you I assume.

I have 750k mastery playing Naut as support, and tbh I can't even play him there anymore. The nerfs are hurting him too much in other places.

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