It's been a couple of weeks since Vel'koz was buffed, and his win rate has not moved

Yenn·Aug 2, 2018·34 votes·11,115 views

And this is no surprise to anyone who mains Vel'koz, because the buff given to him made absolutely no sense.

Can we please have some accountability for dumb changes like this? It's literally someone's job to figure out what changes are needed to bring champions to a good place, and it's clear that they just threw in a bigger number without analyzing or understanding anything about the champion.

Someone is not doing their job.

45 Comments

CppLAug 2, 201813 votes

{quoted}

And this is no surprise to anyone who mains Vel'koz, because the buff given to him made absolutely no sense.

Can we please have some accountability for dumb changes like this? It's literally someone's job to figure out what changes are needed to bring champions to a good place, and it's clear that they just threw in a bigger number without analyzing or understanding anything about the champion.

Someone is not doing their job.

"You dont need to play the game ,to balance it". Ghostcrawler 2018!!

ArakadiaAug 3, 20181 votes

Is this an actual quote or did you make it up?

CppLAug 3, 20181 votes

nop, he actually said that :)

DrCyanideAug 3, 20182 votes

It's taken out of context and twisted a bit. Here's Ghostcrawler's explanation of the statement in his own words (I don't know where the original is).

''You don't need to play the game in order to design it'' Look, the people who build airplanes rarely pilot them, but they still have a pretty good idea of how one flies a plane. That's all I was saying. That quote (taken out of context as these things sometimes are) was in response to the persistent yet somewhat tired theory that the best players should be the ones to design competitive games. There are some players who are excellent designers (and we hire some of them), and there are other players who would be dreadful at the job. If you don't play the game you design, it will definitely be much, much harder for you to be effective, but yes, in a theoretical sense, it is possible.

TobykachuAug 2, 201811 votes

Vel'Koz is only really weak because of the champions he's facing up against. Too many assassins that he struggles to play against, and given how much the community is pressuring Riot to look into nerfing assassins it might be a poor idea to buff him, considering he may be too strong afterwards

TobykachuAug 2, 201810 votes

I believe Riot have unintentionally shot themselves in the foot with how they have treated mages this season.

It feels as though mages are the class that fit best into how a MOBA is meant to be played. Whilst a lot of people are complaining about this 'high damage assassin/fighter' meta, others metas are equally as fun. Tanks metas where a Maokai just sticks on top of you for 20 seconds a slowly whittling you to death is no fun either and neither is an ADC 4 hitting every champion in the game, whilst being almost impossible to take down, because their enchanter support, who is inevitably also meta at this time, just heals and shields them for 1,000 extra damage is fun either.

Mages feel different though. Aside from the rare exceptions such as Vladimir and Azir they really feel like a class that's overall really well balanced. Their damage is very obvious. Either they're high range skill shots, that will rarely kill you in one hit, or short range point and click abilities. Both of which have obvious strengths and weaknesses. Oh, you're laning against Velkoz ? Make sure not to be hit by his e, or take too much poke damage from his q and you should be fine! Laning against an Annie ? No problems, just make sure to stay out of her range and you shouldn't have any problems.

And unlike a fed fighter or assassin, the game doesn't feel like it's over if a mage gets ahead. They simply don't have the mobility or durability to allow them to make the same mistakes that other classes can make. Get the pick on a mage who's out of position and they are unlikely going to live, no matter how fed they are.

On the flip side, if a mage falls behind, it doesn't feel like they're completely useless either. Would you rather have an 0/8 LeBlanc who can't even one shot the enemy Sona or an 0/8 Annie? Neither of them are ideal team mates but one of them still has the potential to land a huge AoE stun than can win a team fight of even the game despite being put off to an early start. Not to mention, a lot of them have pick based abilities that will allow their team to dish out the damage they may not provide, such as Lux's Q and Xerath's E.

TL;DR - I believe mages should be the focal point of every team as it feels like they have clear cut strengths and weaknesses vs every class in the game, a trait no other class shares.

[sg-ezreal]

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20182 votes

Very true. It might be a weird comparison but look at Vel Koz and Atrox: Vel uses his E - it is announced, your enemy sidesteps and he knows he's save from your combo and your passive. Then there's Aatrox - you see the hitbox, you sidestep.... And then he can dash mid skill to actually change the hitbox and opposed to Vel Koz's Q there is essentially no announcement for the near instant hitbox adjustment. Not to mention Vel's Q being blocked by creeps and hitbox size. To stick with Aatrox as an example - we have reached a point where the range squishy mages like Vel Koz have on their QWE isn't paid for in lack of durability (when creating new champions) anymore. These days even melees get poke abilities with similar or higher range than mages! (On lower cooldown...manaless)

Riot is just overloading new / reworked champions' kits so much that anybody who doesn't have a low CD dash to avoid getting gibbed - or is faster at gibbing - is near useless. This hurts combo mages like Vel Koz particularly hard - because that's one of the reasons why every new champion gets multiple dashes and hitting your combo becomes harder with each patch.

AkumuAug 2, 20189 votes

Yes. What Velkoz needs is more reliability, not more damage. Increase Q missile speed and or make his E larger and trigger faster.

But these monkeys on the balance team did the only thing they seem to know how to do. MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE.

Daddy AntsAug 2, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Yes. What Velkoz needs is more reliability, not more damage. Increase Q missile speed and or make his E larger and trigger faster.

But these monkeys on the balance team did the only thing they seem to know how to do. MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE.

No no.

We're in a meta where Assassin's are like a disease in mid lane.

Immobile mages like Vel'koz are free food to these hyper mobile burst assassin's.

Handy Sandy Aug 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yes. What Velkoz needs is more reliability, not more damage. Increase Q missile speed and or make his E larger and trigger faster.

But these monkeys on the balance team did the only thing they seem to know how to do. MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE MORE DAMAGE.

yes but now that balances him in THIS meta, when it changes again he'll be cancer to play against as someone slower like Karthus, so then now Karthus needs more MS and it'll keep going on and on.

PaffWasTakenAug 2, 20185 votes

On a similar note, Viktor also got buffed and even if his winrate kinda moved higher, he is still way under 50%. I just feel like Riot don't know what the hell to do with most mages nowadays

VyupraxAug 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

On a similar note, also got buffed and even if his winrate kinda moved higher, he is still way under 50%. I just feel like Riot don't know what the hell to do with most mages nowadays

No, they do. NERF THEM TO THE GROUND

AtheosisXAug 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

On a similar note, also got buffed and even if his winrate kinda moved higher, he is still way under 50%. I just feel like Riot don't know what the hell to do with most mages nowadays

It's not just mages.

saltranAug 2, 20184 votes

Vel'koz was solid on soloQ and already played on pro play before the buffs, thanks goddes they didn't overbuff him.

Blossom DeadAug 2, 20184 votes

I think the problem is that now you have all this mobility that imobile champions are simply useless. He probably needs a new passive to bounce like a ball from spot to spot on the map to keep up.

Sire HippingtonAug 2, 20184 votes

Yea, Vel is just one of many examples. Riot's 'balance' for bad performing champs seems always to be 'increase damage numbers' and that's it. Olaf for example, that increased AS will either bring his clearspeeds, which are already his strong side, to obnoxious levels, oer it will achive nothing at all. His issue is that he's usless in teamfights cause he explodes befor doing a single AA, yet they refuse to make his ult finally NOT loose the defstats on use but rather slap more dps that he can't really use onto him. Fizz needed a bit help after the changes, but not in form of more burst, yet all riot does is throwing some heavy numbers onto his upfront damage, probably leading to huge banrates on him...

AirKingNeoAug 2, 20183 votes

Riot Balance Team and accountability are two things that do not fix well.

Daddy AntsAug 2, 20183 votes

Vayne 's win rate hasn't moved either.

Still around 48%.

The meta does not suit Vel'koz or Vayne tbh.

Vanic998Aug 2, 20182 votes

What source are you using? I use champion.gg and according to them Vel’Koz’s winrate went up from 48% to 50%.

SanKakUAug 2, 20182 votes

Wait, you're complaining about going from 60 to 80 percent AP damage scaling on Q not being something that wins games? Maybe the slow is more deciding than the damage itself, so the win rate is based on how often he hits his Q? If you want to buff it, maybe the real way to do so is to buff its speed, but that seems a bit extreme to me. Maybe he needs something to help keep him alive? Like why not start playing him bottom as APC with a support lane parter? You don't think that would help his win rate? The AP scaling matters more if he has someone to protect him, right?

CaveslothAug 2, 20181 votes

Yeah they haven't been doing it for more than a year now man... Ardent meta, snowball meta, Runes Reforged. Its like an episode of Ice Road truckers where the driver is asleep. Really bad shits gonna happen.

Leto GTAug 2, 20181 votes

They re looking at damage. Once assassin dmg will be be nerfed, it'll leave room for champion like velkoz to become playable... Hopefully.

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=wG Got2Cool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Jojr0zN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-08-02T14:33:52.964+0000)

They re looking at damage. Once assassin dmg will be be nerfed, it'll leave room for champion like velkoz to become playable... Hopefully.

If they want to lower Assassin damage then I believe the following items need nerfing -

item 3147 item 3146 item 3100

adds too much burst to champions like
adds too much burst damage to champions like
adds too much burst damage to

MF, Wukong and Diana aren't Assassins, sure but the item is still adding too much upfront burst to their combo's.

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20181 votes

item 3095

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Jojr0zN,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T16:41:12.433+0000)

Stormrazor doesn't give you any "bonus damage" like those items.

It just makes your first auto crit.

And it can never go above 200% crit damage anyway.

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20181 votes

As a first item it however adds an insane burst with low CD between uses.

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Jojr0zN,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T17:02:48.731+0000)

As a first item it however adds an insane burst with low CD between uses.

So does Duskblade and Gunblade?

Duskblade literally has no CD.

Duskblade also has a 99% slow attached to it so hf escaping an Assassin who has it.

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20181 votes

I don't disagree with you. I just add another problematic item to the list.

MalakAug 2, 20181 votes

I would like to apply to Riot to work on the balance team

mack9112Aug 2, 20181 votes

Velkoz is absolutely fine

YennAug 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Velkoz is absolutely fine

That stops being true once you get to Diamond, where most players can dodge your skill shots. He is fine in lower tiers of play, and already had fairly high win rate; which makes the damage buff even more questionable, because it's only going to impact him in said levels of play, where players don't have the reaction speed necessary to avoid things.

mack9112Aug 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That stops being true once you get to Diamond, where most players can dodge your skill shots. He is fine in lower tiers of play, and already had fairly high win rate; which makes the damage buff even more questionable, because it's only going to impact him in said levels of play, where players don't have the reaction speed necessary to avoid things.

I don't think do I see plenty of high tier people playing him with success. I feel he is in an absolutely fine spot and does not need touching.

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That stops being true once you get to Diamond, where most players can dodge your skill shots. He is fine in lower tiers of play, and already had fairly high win rate; which makes the damage buff even more questionable, because it's only going to impact him in said levels of play, where players don't have the reaction speed necessary to avoid things.

Again, consequences of the meta.

Zed Yasuo Talon Fizz Katarina MonkeyKing is what is seen in mid lane the most.

They all have what Vel'Koz does not.

Mobility/Gap closers and burst damage.

Vel'Koz is free food to any of these that are equally skilled.

Vel'Koz only has summoner 4 as an escape tool and he's vulnerable for 5 minutes after using it.

King LegoAug 2, 20181 votes

As a Vel'Koz main for 4 years, his Q right now feels different. 0.2 added may not be a big number, but for someone who mained Vel'Koz since Season 4, would know that this is even too much. How? Passive proc hurts. But WITHOUT the Q. Try procing the passive with Q, i don't even need my ulti to finish off my kills. Well sometimes.

That buff on his Q made me both confused and really worried. Though that "simple buff" is not not even simple at all. Vel'Koz is already a balanced champion, true damage is what makes him who he is, very immobile, and very squishee. What needs to be done is for Electrocute and Ignite to be nerfed. To my opinion at least.

I'm not gonna lie, there is not a single day passes by without me being worried sick if Riot is going to gut him to the ground, ever since his Q buff. I don't care about his win rate or play rate. I don't want him to be in meta, but with how League is and the Assassin non-sense, it's literally unfun to play. Even in normals, and i don't play ranked (don't care about it, though i was Silver 1 80LP last season, wasn't hard to climb).

Mokuto BunshiAug 2, 20181 votes

Thought this was gonna be constructive. I get an ad hominem post...

Okay how about we go back to the suggestions that were beneficial rather than laying someone out. Like: Make my E Have longer suspension since its not a knock up and can be cleansed and its his 1 defensive ability. Or maybe change the speed (or maybe size?) or different casting abilities making them easier to hit?

Wacky9Aug 2, 20181 votes

Yeah Vel'koz E is weak and his Q is overtuned. They should have added a touch more reliable CC to his E, rather than try to make his damage higher.

YuGiHoAug 2, 20181 votes

So how would u change him to improve his winrate mid without just increasing his numbers or making him a much better support? I know its not OP's job to make balance changes im just curious if anyone has any ideas the would like to share.

YennAug 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So how would u change him to improve his winrate mid without just increasing his numbers or making him a much better support? I know its not OP's job to make balance changes im just curious if anyone has any ideas the would like to share.

He really only needs more reliability in his kit (i.e. making E land faster when used at close range would be really nice). Speeding up W or Q is also possible, but would be overbearing at low levels of play. Maybe if his E was changed to land faster at close range, it could instantly proc the second part of W when they overlap.

YuGiHoAug 3, 20181 votes

also make his e unable to be blocked by wind wall haha.

Slythrin UmbreonAug 3, 20181 votes

I doubt any changes to Vel'koz would make a difference. Just fix the rest of the game, and it will most likely fix itself.

Hexs FortuneAug 3, 20181 votes

Assassin meta is the problem. Why pick vel when tanks aren't prominent enough and assassins are plentiful

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20181 votes

The meta has 2 issues:

Insane burst damage
High mobility

Champions like Ahri Ekko Fizz Katarina Leblanc Talon Yasuo Zed Zoe dominate mid with insane damage and mobility. Surviving damage is one thing - one issue that Meddler already announced to be tackled, but that doesn't solve Velkoz 's core issues: In response to the damage and as an overall trend champions have gotten more mobility in order to completely avoid damage. Just look at Aatrox with multi short CD dashes. That's without considering that players at diamond+ can easily sidestep a lot of Velkoz 's abilities.

Increasing the scaling on Vel Koz' Q only means that even if Riot fixes the instagib meta - Vel Koz will become overbearing against immobile champions as his damage output already is high, but will see 0 improvements against any of the enemies listed above.

Thus I suggest to undo the Q-scaling buff and add "grounded" to his W - similar to Cassiopeia's W. It disables dashes and forces enemies to actively sidestep his abilities instead of pressing their "out of jail"-cards.

This makes counterplay against him more sidestep / movement mechanic / precision (instead of purely reaction) based
Grants him an opportunity to punish otherwise nonpunishable champions
He might actually see competitive play as a tactical pick for jungle corridor control.