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Welp, Solo Queue is all but officially cancelled.

trash sion··8 votes·886 views

"Prior to the launch of dynamic queue, we felt like we had a competitive ladder that over-indexed on the raw skill and individualism parts instead of naturally promoting all-around great teamplay."

So Riot admits they dislike the idea of the Solo Queue we had before. However, everything listed above is what makes a game actually competitive, when your own individual, untainted skill is compared to others.

"When the team made its recent update, a lot of players took away the conclusion of “no solo queue” -- that we were hiding from a hard conversation by being purposefully vague. In reality, we’re not making a call on solo queue because there are some critical issues we need to fix in dynamic queue to understand what’s actually missing. Promising solo queue in our original announcement was premature - a knee-jerk reaction to a situation we were still figuring out - and our silence on the matter (outside of some miscommunications) only made things more suspicious."

Riot admits that they were lacking in communication. However, they also admit that confirming Solo Queue was a "knee-jerk reaction," in that they never were certainly going to release it. They did lie when they confirmed it, and now we are sure of it.

"We know that for some players, dynamic queue undermines individual recognition of skill, and that’s not something we can solve with iterative improvements."

Exactly. There is no way to make Dynamic Queue truly competitive on an individual level.

"But, we know a lot of things that can be solved with iterative improvements, and our current top three priorities are improving the solo player experience against premades, lowering queue times, and smoothing out role selection weight."

Okay, so Riot is investing even more in Dynamic Queue and addressing none of the problems a large portion of the playerbase are complaining about. Great.

"In an ideal (and optimistic) world, getting these numbers right would make a second queue unnecessary"

This. Riot is working toward Dynamic Queue additions, and they admit that once these are complete, a Solo Queue would be "unnecessary" even though many agree it would be completely necessary still. This is a way of saying, "don't worry, we'll make you like Dynamic Queue so you shut up about Solo."

"Right now we're prioritizing the stability and health of a single queue - two would split the ranked player base and have a significant impact on wait times - and this is not a decision we’re taking lightly."

..and the confirmation. Even if many people want Solo, Riot is invested in Dynamic because they didn't take players into account in the decision. As long as Dynamic is played and makes them money, there will be no Solo.

"When it comes to a philosophical stance, however, we do want to be clear: we believe that dynamic queue is closer to representing a healthy, competitive landscape in League of Legends than solo/duo queue."

Yup. Solo is dead.

Riot, let me just address you directly. I understand you have invested a ton of resources into Dynamic Queue. I understand that people playing with friends will make you more money. That all makes sense. All I'm asking is for you to stop and think; is this really what you want your game to be? Currently, it's tailored to the casual player who hops on for a few with his buds. If you care about the competitive future of League of Legends, and don't want it to just become a home for temporary, casual players, then you need to please those of us that are dedicated. It's in your hands now, Riot. Many players, myself included, will leave the game as soon as Solo Queue is cancelled. You can't draw it out forever. It's your move.

30 Comments

Helmight4 votes

League of Legends, at its core, is ultimately a team game. Placing emphasis on individual skill and recognition, as soloqueue did, is directly contrary to that overall goal of the game. So, yes, Riot DOES want their game to have more of a team play aspect to it and less of the soloqueue mindset of "I have to carry my idiot teammates."

I disagree entirely that Riot's intention is to create a ranked environment for casual, temporary players. In fact, ranked play in general is only interesting for those players that are serious about the game and care about how they place. However, they are emphasizing that team play is more important for the game as a whole - which I think we can both agree is true.

trash sion7 votes

{quoted}

League of Legends, at its core, is ultimately a team game. Placing emphasis on individual skill and recognition, as soloqueue did, is directly contrary to that overall goal of the game. So, yes, Riot DOES want their game to have more of a team play aspect to it and less of the soloqueue mindset of "I have to carry my idiot teammates."

I disagree entirely that Riot's intention is to create a ranked environment for casual, temporary players. In fact, ranked play in general is only interesting for those players that are serious about the game and care about how they place. However, they are emphasizing that team play is more important for the game as a whole - which I think we can both agree is true.

I have to politely disagree. If LoL is a team game at core, then ranked should be 5 man premades only. Any argument against only 5 mans about "4 man and solo is still a team" can be turned around to argue that 5 solos is a team, and it still allows for a display of individual skill.

If Riot's intention isn't to make a casual environment, then what is Dynamic Queue? It makes your rank worthless because you could be playing boosted Bronzies or Diamonds who play Solo and get fucked. Dynamic rank is just a pretty little badge on your profile. I'd even go as far as to say that emphasizing team play over Solo is NOT more important for the game. Sure, it's a 5v5, but in a perfect world, it would be all 1v1s to prove individual skill.

Helmight3 votes

The largest difference between a 5-man premade and 5 solo players is one of mindset. The premade is going into the game prepared and ready to play as a team. They've likely already figured out roles, maybe even hashed out a strategy, and are planning to work together.

Meanwhile, the solo players don't know each other and - more importantly - don't trust each other. They don't know the skill level of their teammates, but naturally assume that it's below their own. They're more willing to fight each other on roles and champion picks because of this. Once in game, they're concerned about their own lane's welfare - not the welfare of other lanes. They don't care about how the team does, provided they win in the end. Insinuating that "in a perfect world, it would be all 1v1s" demonstrates exactly the kind of mindset Riot is trying to combat. League IS a team game, whether you queued individually or with four friends.

Dynaqueue doesn't negate the ability to show off individual skill in the same way that pickup basketball doesn't. Regardless of who shows up to play and how many premades there are, players will always be able to demonstrate how good they are in-game.

Boosting will occur no matter which queue you use. It's a common sight to see D1 players queueing with Bronze-ranked friends or clients on their smurfs and carrying them up to their desired ranking. Dynaqueue might have made such a process more efficient by allowing for said booster to queue with more players, but it hardly changed the fact that it happens to begin with.

And thank you for being polite. I honestly expected to get flamed straight off the bat, so I'm happy we're able to have a discussion instead :D

trash sion3 votes

I'd like to take your basketball analogy.

Imagine there's a basketball tournament, in which teams are made up of 5. You can join a team solo, or bring friends. Everyone is organized by an average skill level of their group of friends, or they're put together by skill level when they join the tournament solo.

Can one sensibly argue that a team of 5 random guys off the street could accurately display their skill against a team of 5 that has been playing tournaments for months or even years?

...and, does it make sense to base the winners of the tournament off of the entirety of a team, even if one or two players on the team clearly doesn't deserve to win?

My answer is no.

Helmight2 votes

However, in the basketball analogy, it's harder to lie about your experience. Michael Jordan would have a hard time pretending that he only played in high school and therefore should be matched up with high school-level players. In League however, you can always create a smurf and effectively lie about your true rank in order to carry others.

I will concede that five-man groups have no place competing against a group of solo players, but Riot has specifically stated that they've been working on the system to prevent that exact scenario from happening (Lyte's post a couple months back mentions that they're working on getting groups of equal sizes matched with each other 95% of the time). I would also honestly like it if Riot could reinstate Ranked Teams for the sole purpose of removing 5-man groups from the queue, since those seem to be the primary thorn in the side of Soloqueue supporters.

trash sion2 votes

I'd say 4's are worse, because they can also happen on YOUR team. Majority surrenders, role forcing, etc.

Helmight2 votes

That, to me, is just a symptom of community toxicity and not necessarily an issue with Dynaqueue. Most people - if they're decent - know better than to force a role swap. Majority surrender's a vaguer issue, but if the bulk of the players in the game feel like the game is lost/can be won, then it doesn't really matter if they're queued together or not. Those who use 4-man groups to belittle the random should be dealt with by the Tribunal.

Dediguise3 votes

So I just want to jump in and say that you both have valid points. But I think that the solo queue vs dynamic queue argument is a red herring. Dynamic queue's implementation merely made previous issues in league easier to exploit. There is no realistic way to remove smurfs, nor at this point is it even worth considering, but I think most rational people would admit that they cause more problems than they solve. Between Diamond's using silver as a stomping ground to duo's "boosting" their friends there has always been a problem with smurfs in ranked games. Dynamic queue expands that problem, with little to no compensation to players who didn't abuse the system. The fact that the Hextech crafting system further rewards you for playing with premades by offering a higher droprate for keys is an even bigger slap in the face.

There are steps that riot can take to mitigate these problems, but they have shown that they prefer to act reactively rather than proactively, which creates a frustrating "I told you so" dynamic between the players and Riot. One such step would be to implement in-game voice chat. That would at least allow players to address the communication advantage whether they used it or not. Another would be to address many of the issues they already intend on doing. As a solo player my concern is that regardless of the advantages in game, players in playing in groups are getting more content and that's really not fair. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

The Queen Viper2 votes

{quoted}

League of Legends, at its core, is ultimately a team game. Placing emphasis on individual skill and recognition, as soloqueue did, is directly contrary to that overall goal of the game.

However just because people choose to queue as individuals, doesn't mean they magically stop playing as a team.

trash sion5 votes

Still, Solo Queue gives everyone the opportunity to contribute equally. Dynamic Queue doesn't. You can't argue that 5 solo players have as much control and synergy as 5 voice chatting friends who have played together for months or years.

The Queen Viper2 votes

I know, and I agree with you.

Helmight1 votes

The mindset is totally different when you queue by yourself versus when you queue with friends. Soloqueue players are much more likely to distrust their teammate's skill levels and champion picks, and are more concerned with the welfare of their own lane and their own LP. Queuing with friends meanwhile makes you a lot more interested in the welfare of the group, which leads to better teamplay and less toxicity.

trash sion2 votes

From the way you're wording this, it sounds like you strongly believe that LoL is a team game, and that premades play better as a team which is good for the game. In which case, we should scrap all queues in favor of 5man vs 5man premade ranked only.

Helmight2 votes

If that were possible, sure. But as Riot found out with Ranked 5's, players aren't always able to scrape together four other friends to play with every day. So, some kind of compromise has to be made - hence Dynaqueue. The goal was to unite the "pickup" mentality of soloqueue games with the organization and teamplay aspects of Ranked 5's. Obviously, not everything translated perfectly - but I would posit that it's still better than either of the former two.

DFDark3 votes

{quoted}

League of Legends, at its core, is ultimately a team game. Placing emphasis on individual skill and recognition, as soloqueue did, is directly contrary to that overall goal of the game. So, yes, Riot DOES want their game to have more of a team play aspect to it and less of the soloqueue mindset of "I have to carry my idiot teammates."

I disagree entirely that Riot's intention is to create a ranked environment for casual, temporary players. In fact, ranked play in general is only interesting for those players that are serious about the game and care about how they place. However, they are emphasizing that team play is more important for the game as a whole - which I think we can both agree is true.

You may disagree, You may protest, but that's about all you can do. The fact that LoL lost it's competitiveness is a true however. If Riot was serious about improving competitiveness there would be only 2 possible ranked queues => Solo Queue and Ranked teams.

Solo Queue tells not only your individual skill, but also your ability to "cope" with different kinds of teammates, your ability to improvise. Also the only constant in PURE SoloQ is you. Therefore given right amount of games (lets say more than 50) gives accurate reading of your individual ability.

Dynamic queue only tells how good are you with your premades combined. But do you always play with same premades? Of course not (mostly). Each game can be played with different people so what does your "rank" means then?

Helmight2 votes

Solo Queue tells not only your individual skill, but also your ability to "cope" with different kinds of teammates, your ability to improvise. Also the only constant in PURE SoloQ is you. Therefore given right amount of games (lets say more than 50) gives accurate reading of your individual ability.

The problem with this is that League of Legends shouldn't be emphasizing your individual skill and instead emphasize how well you play with others. It's a team game, after all.

Dynamic queue only tells how good are you with your premades combined. But do you always play with same premades? Of course not (mostly). Each game can be played with different people so what does your "rank" means then?

I'm not sure what kind of point you're making here. You play with different people every time you queue up for a soloqueue game (duos obviously accepted), so what's the difference here?

Goosetard2 votes

Things I agree with that you've said:

  • League is a team game at heart
  • Riot wants more team play

Things I disagree with, and why:

  • Solo queue placed an emphasis on individual skill and recognition.

Yeah, sure, at low elo, where mistakes are obvious, plentiful, and easily capitalized upon by one person. The ONLY difference from a gameplay perspective between playing with a party and solo queue is that you're more likely to have voice comms with your party. The synergy gained by being in queue with someone can be gained with random matches as long as the people you're matched with are willing. If they aren't willing to work with anyone, the old system would punish them while the new one does not, effectively doing the opposite of what you insist it does. Adding voice comms to the game instead of dynamic queue would have had more of the effect you want with less of a compromise of competitive integrity. So then, where does the advantage come from queueing with others? ESPECIALLY after the drastic ranked reset, it's really hard to get an accurate rating on anyone, and people can queue with people much better than they are, which wasn't as easy to do before.

  • Ranked play in general is only interesting for those players that are serious about the game and care about how they place.

I agree partly with this statement, but I disagree with the point you're using the statement to make. There are varying degrees of seriousness about ranked. Those at the more serious end of the spectrum should have an advantage over people who are infrequently hopping on with their friends every once in a while, but right now it's debatable if they even do.

  • Riot's intention is not to create a ranked environment for casual, temporary players

Because I believe, as stated above, that dynamic queue eases the burden of being a good, agreeable teammate to strangers and lowers the reward for extensive, in-game knowledge relative to the reward of playing with others, I believe the resulting environment is more advantageous for casual players than it used to be and less advantageous for serious, solo players.

I think that's why people are upset.

Helmight1 votes

The synergy gained by being in queue with someone can be gained with random matches as long as the people you're matched with are willing. If they aren't willing to work with anyone, the old system would punish them while the new one does not, effectively doing the opposite of what you insist it does.

I actually disagree with this. As I've mentioned in my previous posts to Azuk, the problem with soloqueue is that it forces a mindset of "I'm better than the rest of my team." It's not through any malicious intent, but when players have to compare their skill level with that of four unknowns - well, they almost always assume that they're the most competent player there. I know Riot Lyte has done studies on this exact phenomenon before and come up with the same conclusions. Meanwhile, Dynaqueue assumes that you're playing with people that you've at least played with once or twice before, which means that you have some idea of their skill level and playstyle. It builds team synergy, while Soloqueue naturally works against it. Voice comms don't even factor into it.

Those at the more serious end of the spectrum should have an advantage over people who are infrequently hopping on with their friends every once in a while, but right now it's debatable if they even do.

They mostly certainly still have an advantage in that they care more about the game than casuals. People who play ranked every day will have more experience in a competitive environment, and will naturally care more about how well they do and what their ranking is. They will, simply put, be better players than the ones that only occasionally play ranked because they've put in time and effort into getting good. It doesn't really matter if they're playing in dynaqueue or soloqueue - game knowledge and skill is game knowledge and skill.

Goosetard1 votes

To your first point, that's an interesting comment and something I wasn't considering before. I tend not to assume that I'm the best person when I queue with random people, or even that I'm better than my opponent, but that doesn't mean you/Lyte aren't (and I strongly suspect you are) right. Interestingly enough, I assume I'm significantly better than most of my friends who I queue with most of the time--both because of how we play and because most of them were mid silver/low gold last season and I peaked at plat 3. Thanks to the reset and dynamic queue, I now play with them all the time, and we're all a little closer in rank. As many favors as I'm sure it would do me to play without them, I'd honestly feel guilty doing so, and it was nice to have a barrier between us that I wasn't responsible for. But that's not Riot's problem, and neither here nor there. The point is that that attitude makes you a worse player, and solo queue punished you for it while dynamic queue did not. Sweeping that attitude under the rug doesn't fix it, but dynamic queue has definitely changed the face of it.

To your second point, yes, the people who care more will have an advantage over those who don't. My point was about how much agency you can gain from your increased skill/knowledge in the dynamic queue environment compared to the solo queue one.

Helmight1 votes

The point is that that attitude makes you a worse player, and solo queue punished you for it while dynamic queue did not. Sweeping that attitude under the rug doesn't fix it, but dynamic queue has definitely changed the face of it.

See, I disagree with this point. The soloqueue mindset is almost entirely "carry yourself, disregard your teammates," to the point that most players ask which champions they should play to carry themselves out of [insert division here]. Attitude is a huge part of it, there's no question about that, but soloqueue doesn't do enough to foster a sense of teamwork or community. Rather, it does the opposite. Dynaqueue, by contrast, encourages players to band together and work with their teammates instead of seeking to solo-carry their way to their desired division. I think both queues punish those with bad attitudes,, but if anything, Dynamic Queue does a better job. After all, if you're the raging solo player paired with a four-man group, you'll likely get told off more quickly than in soloqueue.

Agency hasn't changed from soloqueue to dynaqueue. If you're the best player in your queue - premade or no - you still can carry games and show your skill. I fail to see how dynaqueue has decreased the ability to carry or prove your worth.

Goosetard2 votes

The question of "which champions are strongest" is one everyone asks. It's related to "who do I play to carry myself out of _____" but the blank is almost universally filled by a low elo. This is because it's the product of a bad mindset. Soloque doesn't "foster" teamwork in any sense besides rewarding you for having it and punishing you for not. The soloque mindset you're describing is a problem that can and should be un-learned. Dynamic queue doesn't get people to un-learn it. And if you think it's in dynamic queue's favor that a 4 man will tell off a solo rager, I think there are far more chilling consequences in store for the solo players who are forced to queue with a 4 man group and experience the tyranny of the majority in the automated punishment system.

Dynamic queue has decreased your ability to prove your worth by yourself because you can get a huge leg up queuing with people who are better than you, or tank you rank playing with people worse than you to the point where, when you go solo with a rank that you didn't earn by yourself, you're stomping people flat.

There's no reason I should be able to go into a game with anivia and come out 21/4 and then queue with my friends who are a a rank or two away from me and lose 4 straight. There's a lot of people getting screwed in that situation; who it is seems to rotate at least a little, thankfully.

Grashnim2 votes

If there is no solo queue, there is no me. Hopefully more people start putting their actions out there so Riot has to pretend to care again.

trash sion3 votes

As soon as Solo Queue is cancelled, I'm quitting. No exceptions.

Sukishoo3 votes

Bye then!

trash sion2 votes

This is what I mean. Even you know Solo Queue isn't coming, because you're already bidding me farewell. Riot sucks at lying.

Jabberwöcky2 votes

Whats so hard about this.

Make a SOLO que for only SOLO players, 1+1+1+1+1 v 1+1+1+1+1

Then Dyhamic que for whoever wants to play Russian roulette

Then ranked 5s for whoever wants to play 5 v 5.

trash sion2 votes

I like the way you call it Russian Roulette... because that's exactly what it is.

Jabberwöcky2 votes

its one of three things.

  1. Its equal teams, in terms of rank, and in terms of if theres premades or not, this is the least likely of the three.

  2. equally as number 3, but its where the other team is stacked with a 4 man + 1 vs you, and it has a low ranked with two super high ranks in the carry roles.

  3. the opposite of number 2, where you have the stacked team, but instead you have 4 premade bronzes and your the gold, vs a team of 3 plats and 2 silvers.

trash sion2 votes

And such a variation in the difficulty and fairness of games is a terrible way to measure skill.

Dehitay1 votes

This wouldn't be so bullshit if Riot didn't claim that they're holding off solo queue to fix dynamic queue when they have made no major improvements on dynamic queue since it came out and it's been months already. Everybody with a decent amount of intelligence knows the primary problem is the lack of supports. A recommendation that has come up multiple times is to allow option 3rd and 4th picks for people that want to choose more than 2, but not the 5 of fill. This would increase the amount of supports by a small amount, but Riot hasn't done anything about this recommendation that could be absolutely nothing but beneficial. Then there was them telling us themselves at the start that supports might be underselected and they would consider adding incentives for supports. But they haven't even talked about any incentives since that point and it's more obvious than a punch in the face that supports are underselected.

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