Tanks- Buff Base Stats, Small Nerfs to Offensive Damage Scaling

Meep Man··14 votes·879 views

To get right to the point, Tanks need better base stats and maybe toned down ratios. Most Tanks are often built these days with whatever items their abilities scale with, making them more as Bruisers than Tanks. See Amumu, Sejuani, Malphite, Zac, etc. They all end up building more Bruiser than actual Tank these days and I feel like that's mainly an issue in where the meta is and how these Tanks are equipped for it. The current Meta has a ton of damage packed into it, making even Tanks wanting to build damage rather than straight up counter it. I think the way to work Tanks back into being these hard to kill, not so hard hitting giants is to buff their defensive base stats and slightly reduce their offensive scaling to discourage them from building offensively.

Something like:

Zac Health: 615 (+95 per level) -> 675 (+105 per level) Armor: 24 (+3.5 per level) -> 29 (+4 per level) Magic Resist: 32.1 (+1.25 per level) -> 35 (+1.5 per level)

Q- Stretching Strike AP Ratio reduced to 45% from 50%

W- Unstable Matter AP Ratio reduced to 1% per 100 AP from 2% per 100 AP

E- Elastic Slingshot AP Ratio reduced to 55% from 70%

R- Let's Bounce! AP Ratio reduced to 30% from 40%


This way, we have some beefy protectors for our team that defend with crowd control and huge bodies instead of damage AND crowd control.

28 Comments

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

Tanks would pretty much always build a little damage to make themselves more threatening. This is not a new trend.

Some common pick-ups would be items such as: item 3020 item 3025 item 3116 item 3151 item 3001 item 3075 item 3068

If tanks invest heavily into offensive items, then they sacrifice durability. There is nothing wrong with making that trade-off.

Meep Man2 votes

The main issue is that these days, despite Tanks not being advertised as huge damage threats, they often are in-game simply due to how their kits work. Malphite, Amumu, and Zac in particular are often seen as more Bruisers when they are advertised as Tanks. Of course Tanks need a minimum amount of damage they deal, but that should REALLY be through base numbers rather than having them buy offensive items to make them actually noticed. I just don't get why a Tank, someone you bring on your team for their durability and crowd control, should also have to invest in items meant for Offensive stats use when they are the most Defensive stats oriented role in the entire game. Sunfire Cape, Thornmail, and even Iceborn Gauntlet are ok (maybe even Rylai's if Riot makes it more focused on it's defensive stats in Preseason 7) to be built by Tanks since they provide defensive stats with offensive effects, but a Tank really shouldn't want to buy Liandy's, Sorcerer's Shoes, or Abyssal at all. However, Tanks often buy those items or some other item that they should really not WANT or NEED to buy.

Big Lincoln2 votes

tank damage numbers are inflated in damage charts because they're entirely aoe and most of them have low cooldowns

also sunfire's passive dmg stacks it up as well

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Don't forget that the tanks are generally hitting squishy targets while the carries are hitting tanks.

Also, carries tend to get focused down while tanks survive through much of the fight.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You don't always need damage items, but they are good options to have available. The listed options are especially good if they are going to be your only damage item since they provide defensive stats and offer useful effects.

Tanks generally benefit from magic penetration due to their base damages, they often like to provide auras (i.e. Abyssal Scepter) and they have the sustained CC to benefit from Liandry's Torment.

This is especially true since magic penetration/reduction will amplify the damage dealt by Gromp buff, Cinderhulk/Sunfire Cape and Thornmail.

Ralanr3 votes

Everytime someone recommends nerfing tank damage I cringe for fear of what would happen to Sion.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

am guessing they would just nerf his Q damage since it does do a lot of damage. however the rest of his kit doesn't do a lot of that

Ralanr2 votes

But his Q has so much damage because it is very unreliable.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

understandable but am just saying if they want to buff tanky stats and nerf damages. you know what i mean. idk make laning his Q easier or something in return

Ralanr1 votes

I guess I could see that trade off. Idk, Sion and tank damage is somewhat of a touchy subject.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

it would make sense to reduce damage and make his Q still go through after he gets cced. would be reasonable.

but idk i like to cancel his Q before it goes into stun. good weakness.

Ralanr1 votes

Exactly. Sion has good clear counterplay, almost too much counterplay one could argue. It makes him healthy, but at the same time it holds him back and makes him not viable in proplay.

It's tricky.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

hes still a very good champion. strong. very strong. at least currently he is. i dont like to play him. all that much. because its fraustrating to be like. the giant that everyone knows how to avoid.

Ralanr1 votes

I know how to get their attention.

Meep Man1 votes

Probably nerf the damage attached to his R. Sion is a tricky case since most of his valuable scaling actually ties to his base AD.

Penns2 votes

So for example make Zac out of this world op oO

Meep Man1 votes

Do explain how this would make him too strong.

Penns1 votes

Well he is already really, really strong + his standard build has 0 ap in it so nerfing his ap scalings would do nothing, really. But +60 base hp, + 5 base armor, +3 base mr, +170 hp at level 18 and higher armor/mr per level would be a huge buff, especially the hp and the armor buff for early clears.

Big Lincoln1 votes

fk off no, I've always built sej as a bruiser

leave her alone, she has only been a problem when cinderhulk was OP

Amumu has always built tons of damage too. his kit doesn't really lend itself to anything else; he has 2 CC abilities, and the other 2 are strictly for damage. there's no surprise he's just gonna build for the best of both worlds

Crett1 votes

I feel tanks with notable active damage potential will always kinda mow you over sometimes. I'd like a system that shifts that power to their defensive, passive combat mechanics (e.g. things like thornmail, damage reduction and in combat regen), which would reward them for getting in the fight but not for diving the backline and assassinating squishies before they can be feasibly shut down.

This could make a world where it's more healthy for a tank to be raid boss levels of tanky without being oppressive.

It shouldn't be a question of if you CAN kill the tank, but more of a matter of time (I'd want it to be kind of a project. Make it take a while.) When a tank wins against an ADC it should be because they could last long enough for their team to help them.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EM16jq1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-29T20:01:41.043+0000)

To get right to the point, Tanks need better base stats and maybe toned down ratios. Most Tanks are often built these days with whatever items their abilities scale with, making them more as Bruisers than Tanks. See Amumu, Sejuani, Malphite, Zac, etc.

http://champion.gg/champion/Amumu

Most often built as a full tank, only highest win percent builds him as a bruiser. This isn't new, has been the case basically since I started playing in season five.

http://champion.gg/champion/Sejuani/Jungle

Is built tank in both builds, with only Rylai's for a damage item in the latter, which seems ridiculously stupid to me considering how every ability she has has harder CC than that.

http://champion.gg/champion/Malphite

Full tank for both. Abyssal's is a perfectly okay tank item, though his average build is stupid. Needs more HP.

http://champion.gg/champion/Zac

Is built completely tank.

RexSaur1 votes

Tanks dont need buffs just because you think they are weak because they cant be unkillable 1v5.

Meep Man1 votes

This thread has almost nothing to do with that childish argument people throw out. I don't want Tanks to be building damage items, simple as that.

Boulderox1 votes

problem being i feel the reason tank is so lack luster right now is because of the insanity that is armor pen. item 3142 being a staple in almost every adc now a days, there is no point investing in only defenses when they are erased by another item when you can build bruiser and possibly lock them out and force them out before they can kill you.

LankPants1 votes

Zac Health: 615 (+95 per level) -> 675 (+105 per level) Armor: 24 (+3.5 per level) -> 29 (+4 per level) Magic Resist: 32.1 (+1.25 per level) -> 35 (+1.5 per level)

Q- Stretching Strike AP Ratio reduced to 45% from 50%

W- Unstable Matter AP Ratio reduced to 1% per 100 AP from 2% per 100 AP

E- Elastic Slingshot AP Ratio reduced to 55% from 70%

R- Let's Bounce! AP Ratio reduced to 30% from 40%

This makes Zac want more AP. You've given him better base stats and are making him buy more damage to achieve the same result, but in dropping some extra durability he doesn't lose anything because he has higher bases.

Also, 2565 HP at 18, 101 armour and 62 MR at lv 18 is way to high for just base stats. How much more durability do you actually need ontop of that? You can just build item 1402 item 3151 item 3152 item 3001 item 3143 item 3111 and be tanky enough since he'd have around 4k HP, 130 MR and 200 armour.

Dengeden1 votes

Ratios barely do anything. It's base damage that's the problem. It's essential for CS and/or jungle clear, so lowering them is problematic. At best, your suggestion would lead tanks into going more offensive runes (maybe masteries) since they got a base defense buff.

Jorencice1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9EM16jq1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-29T20:01:41.043+0000)

To get right to the point, Tanks need better base stats and maybe toned down ratios. Most Tanks are often built these days with whatever items their abilities scale with, making them more as Bruisers than Tanks. See Amumu, Sejuani, Malphite, Zac, etc. They all end up building more Bruiser than actual Tank these days and I feel like that's mainly an issue in where the meta is and how these Tanks are equipped for it. The current Meta has a ton of damage packed into it, making even Tanks wanting to build damage rather than straight up counter it. I think the way to work Tanks back into being these hard to kill, not so hard hitting giants is to buff their defensive base stats and slightly reduce their offensive scaling to discourage them from building offensively.

Something like:

Zac Health: 615 (+95 per level) -> 675 (+105 per level) Armor: 24 (+3.5 per level) -> 29 (+4 per level) Magic Resist: 32.1 (+1.25 per level) -> 35 (+1.5 per level)

Q- Stretching Strike AP Ratio reduced to 45% from 50%

W- Unstable Matter AP Ratio reduced to 1% per 100 AP from 2% per 100 AP

E- Elastic Slingshot AP Ratio reduced to 55% from 70%

R- Let's Bounce! AP Ratio reduced to 30% from 40%


This way, we have some beefy protectors for our team that defend with crowd control and huge bodies instead of damage AND crowd control.

That would only hurt zac.

Not to mention tanks need damage to deal with adcs.

Otherwise they will just get face tanked by a 30% life steal adc.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You can improve scaling stats if you like but you can't touch base stats on junglers. Riot wanted Jarvan to get buffed so they gave him 2 extra armor at level 1.

Jungler base stats are calculated with first clear in mind. It's a very specific number.

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